SOME VERY IMPORTANT QUESTIONS...
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Peace be upon you all,
When a debate begins to get "stale", then those who follow the guidance should just step away. Our clear goal is PEACE, we must always remember that. Those who are following closely to the debates can see who is doing what.
I have had many debates with Brother PB which I had to step away from. Before I would just keep playing this game of going in circles, but I had to realize it was a test for my person.
We can only guide those who chose to be guided.
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PEACE, ASHUURA,
I just want to know when you will stop running, making excuses, going off on tangents, indulging in personal attacks
Peace all, A lot of assumptions there, just because PB said it does not make it a FACT. The FACT is few or none accept his conclusions for sure.
No assumptions at all. Five people thus far have accepted Allah's arguemen that, His Book of Guidance to all of mankind--Al-Quran, is fully detailed--relative to/specific to/pertinent to--GUIDANCE. The question puts right up front the choice you have to make...answer yes and be in shirk or answer no and in be in tauhid. Oh, btw, this isn't my argument, but Allah's Argument. I only posted His ayats. So, your beef isn't with me, but Allah. If I were...I would re-think my position and quickly ).
This is not a discussion, it is not a court session, it is a stand off. He is stuck because he has no yes or no answer. Hence, he must in desperation try to get a response or proceed to slander
.I'm not stuck at all...you and Idol...are stuck. Slander is not my game, it is yours and your very post proves it. Why are you devoting an entire post to ad hominem? No, Ashuura, it is you, who is desperate and indulging in slander.
The psychological pattern here is very interesting, PB is self appointing himself as the "authority" to demark muslim from non.
LOL! I'm doing no such thing. This is simply your imagination at work here.
And, by sitting in that authority position he is attempting to manipulate human psychology.
This is paranoia.
I don't know whether this is by design or accident, but the rational response is not to give a yes or no answer and let him escalate his rhetoric and exposing himself in behaviour in answer to his own question what he is all about.
On the contrary, it is absolutely rational to answer yes or no, because the answer determines if one will remain in shirk or submit to Allah only and alone. You are angry, as is Idol, because you find yourselves boxed in. Now, you are forced to confront your gods, mainly, your individual egos.
Who is muslim or not is the business of none but GOD, meanwhile anyone who is muslim is obligated to treat everyone regardless of way of life. Ones own beliefs is a matter between GOD and themselves and not for nosey do gooders.
Hmmm...fine speech.
Peace be upon those who follow guidance
And...what guidance might that be?
Allah, per ayat 2185, says that...His Quran is the guidance to mankind. Thus, the question remains
THE QUESTION
Did Allah leave out any necessary/essential/indispensible detail from Al-Quran-- relative to/specific to/pertinent to--GUIDANCE, which could result in an individuals going astray and inevitably going to HELL? Yes or no?
Five people have found it quite easy to render a one word response...I'm certain you can do the same, yes? No more running, making excuses, going off on tangents, indulging in personal attacks, etc. Answer the question or...are you afraid to admit to something i.e. that you really don't believe Allah?
Looking forward to your reply.
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PEACE, IDOL,
Why is it that you post long and convoluted epistles, of biblical proportions, on just about anything, yet, you now find yourself totally incapable of answering a question with a simple yes or no response, what is that about? You wrote "Those who are following closely to the debates can see who is doing what". Yes, they can.
Listen, stop with the excuses and simply answer the following with a yes or a no.
THE QUESTION
Did Allah leave out any necessary/essential/indispensible detail from Al-Quran-- relative to/specific to/pertinent to--GUIDANCE, which could result in an individuals going astray and inevitably going to HELL? Yes or no?
Looing forward to your reply.
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PEACE, SHUAIB,
kinda frustrating. lots of similarity to apple pie's techniques - NOTE not a personal attack, see previous posts for detailed examples of how pb's technique is IDENTICAL to apple pie's
Anytime an individual departs from the issue and focus's on personal issues, that constitutes a personal attack. Focus on the topic/issue and answer the question presented to you.
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salam pb,
Anytime an individual departs from the issue and focus's on personal issues, that constitutes a personal attack.
actually, your tactics are totally relevant to the issue. I'm sorry if you're embarassed by the comparison to apple pie.. but it holds quite true... the previous posts are here on the thread permanently for all to see.
Your methods and tactics are entirely relevant, and hence not departing from the issue, hence not a personal attack.
Everyone on the forum has their own eyes to look back and see if I am running away or if I answered the question AD NAUSEUM. Let them decide themselves.
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Peace Priest_Bokmei,
After reading all your posts regarding your question and the replies of some people, I feel that some people are having a misunderstanding of terminology used in the question, thereby having difficulty replying to it "yes" or "no", and not because they disagree with the truth. Therefore I have a humble suggestion. After studying the meaning of "fasala" I suggest that you change the wording of your question to the following to avoid any misunderstanding of terminology
Is Al-Qur'aan not sufficient relative to/pertinent to guidance towards truth and righteousness, which could result in an individual going astray and ending up in Hell?
OR
Is Al-Qur'aan not fully explaining/clarifying relative to/pertinent to guidance towards truth and righteousness................
OR
Did Allah leave out any explanation/clarification from Al-Qur'aan...................
And before you start asking me this question, I would like to remind you that I have already replied to your question succintly in another thread )
I have one question for you though brother. After reading a lot of your posts including the Iblees and "jinn" threads, I have a feeling that you and "Dhul" are the same person with different nicknames. Is that true? "Yes" or "No". I would appreciate the truthful answer )
Regards,
Tanveer
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PEACE, SHUAIB,
actually, your tactics are totally relevant to the issue. I'm sorry if you're embarassed by the comparison to apple pie.. but it holds quite true... the previous posts are here on the thread permanently for all to see.
Don't get me wrong, I am not all embarassed by youR comparing me to Apple Pie. Apple Pie's debating skills are far more developed than your own. My protest is that you continue to respond with personal attacks and not what is requested of you. Your refusal to answer a direct Quranic question has exposed your feigned sincerity for Allah, His Deen and His Quran. No, Shuaib, it is I who, feel embarassed for you.
Everyone on the forum has their own eyes to look back and see if I am running away or if I answered the question AD NAUSEUM. Let them decide themselves.
Yes, you have been running and continue to do so. What are you so afraid of? Tell you what, if you are not afraid then answer the following question, as five other members have already, with a yes or a no. If you continue to evade doing this, well, you only further damage your credibility, show everyone that you are afraid to answer and...yes, continue to embarass yourself.
THE QUESTION
Did Allah leave out any necessary/essential/indispensible detail from Al-Quran-- relative to/specific to/pertinent to--GUIDANCE, which could result in an individuals going astray and inevitably going to HELL? Yes or no?
Oh, btw, please read and study my following reply to Tanveer, on fully detailed. Perhaps it will help clarify things for you.
Looking forward to either a yes or a no reply...not personal attacks or irrelevent embellishments, thanks.
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PEACE, TANVEER MD,
After reading all your posts regarding your question and the replies of some people, I feel that some people are having a misunderstanding of terminology used in the question, thereby having difficulty replying to it "yes" or "no", and not because they disagree with the truth. Therefore I have a humble suggestion. After studying the meaning of "fasala" I suggest that you change the wording of your question to the following to avoid any misunderstanding of terminology Is Al-Qur'aan not sufficient relative to/pertinent to guidance towards truth and righteousness, which could result in an individual going astray and ending up in Hell?
OR Is Al-Qur'aan not fully explaining/clarifying relative to/pertinent to guidance towards truth and righteousness................
OR Did Allah leave out any explanation/clarification from Al-Qur'aan...................
Let me ask you this , do you know of any explantion/clarification of whatever, that is not fully detailed? One cannot render a full explanation of anything, with out details, it is simply impossible. Thus, details, are the absolute foundation of any explanation, do you agree? Please look at the following definitions for minute, detail, and fasala
Main Entry MINUTE marked by close attention to details.
Main Entry DETAIL to report minutely and distinctly specify marked by abundant thoroughness in treating small items or parts.
"To report", is to--explain, agreed?
" Abundant thoroughness in treating small item or parts ", can only mean attention to details, agreed?
A clear explantion then, can only be that if it is fully detailed, that is, reported minutely and being thorough/attentative to small items and parts.
Main Entry FASALA/FULLY DETAILED expatiate in to detail distinct narrating a thing with all its particulars distinguishing decisive detailed clearly explained.
Main Entry EXPATIATE to speak or write at length or in detail.
The definition by Omar, includes both clearly and distinctly explained, as well as, detailed, because it is the inherent nature of a clearly/distinctly explained thing, to be fully detailed. Clearly/distinctly explained and fully detailed, are indissolubly/inextricably/inseparately bound together. Do you agree?
And before you start asking me this question, I would like to remind you that I have already replied to your question succintly in another thread
Yes, you did, and much appreciated . You, apparently, did not any trouble coming to a one word conclusion and answer to the question, so why do you think Shuaib and Idol, for examples, are having such difficulty? They are having difficulty, because they would prefer to mislead themselves and others on this issue, rather than, to agree with what I've argued here...no other explanation makes any sense. I have clearly, distinctly, minutely explained my position vis a vis GUIDANCE and fully detailed, hence, they cannot say..."man, what does he mean by that?"
Looking forward to your reply.
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Peace Priest Bokmei,
You insist on yes or no answers...but i see that you didn't answer tavernmd yes or no question wink
Now, to your question - i answer YES nothing needed for guidance is left out of qur'an, BUT this question is a nonsensical one, because God says that the people that don't deserve the guidance will just be locked out from the right understanding even though they might think they are guided....veils on their eyes aso...
As for the question "are you a muslim?", the answer IMO can only be if God wills.
LK
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Priest Bokmei,
GOD already knows the answer for each and every one of us, hence your question is redundant. Period.
You just don't come in to it, get use to the idea. You seem to be carrying hadithian baggage with excessive fascination in identifying people with labels.
Your only choice is to evaluate each deed and action. One person can be muslim one day and a munafiq the other. A "No" answer is something can be told by a munafiq, no problem. It does not make him GOD Alone.
OK I cleared two motives for not answering
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Self emposed inquisition I have unseated your argument, GOD knows the answer.
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Friendship I don't want your friendship as I don't like your behaviour
Hence, I can now answer
My answer, is NO. How does that sit with you?
Looking forward to your "reply".
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Peace be upon you PB,
Did Allah leave out any necessary/essential/indispensible detail from Al-Quran-- relative to/specific to/pertinent to--GUIDANCE, which could result in an individuals going astray and inevitably going to HELL? Yes or no?
Refering to THIS READING, which was written down into 114 chapters by humans, NO, there are sufficeint details to be guided, that is, to be POINTED IN THE CORRECT DIRECTION. And the direction it points us to is the FULLY DETAILED Book(Universal Law). Therefore the reason you have to add "Relative to guidance" is because relative to anything else, it lacks details. Therefore we must look to the BOOK(Al kitaab), with the guidance obtained from the God's message in what has descended to us and those before us, so we can get the FULLL DETAIL.
Its like I am in New York City and I see a sign that points me(guides me) towards Califronia, yes it is certainly pointing me in the right direction, but I will require more details to get where I am going.
For example, we are told to eat pure nutricious food, but we need details on health and nutrition to be able to follow that guidance. Or when we are told to JUDGE fair, we will need the DETAILS of each side so we can make the proper judgement regarding the 99 and 1 sheep.
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Peace Priest_Bokmei,
Main Entry FASALA/FULLY DETAILED expatiate in to detail distinct narrating a thing with all its particulars distinguishing decisive detailed clearly explained.
I have the Dictionary of the Holy Qur'aan by Abdul Mannan Omar with me right now and I can see that you have included as a meaning of "fasala" some meanings that are not its meanings but meanings of its various forms. You should have quoted as follows
FASALA To set apart, separate, distinguish (not "distinguishing"), set a limit, part, depart, decide (not "decisive"), set out, divide into parts, expatiate into detail, make clear (statement), distinct, judge, narrate a thing with all its particulars.
FASLUN Distinguishing, Decisive (these should be under "faslun" and not "fasala")
MUFASSALAN Clearly explained (should be under "mufassalan" and not "fasala")
FUSSILAT Detailed (should be under "fussilat" and not "fasala")
MUFASSALAT Fully detailedThe above may seem unimportant or irrelevent to you but it is very important not to intermix the meanings of various forms of a word. Its your own argument against you PAY ATTENTION TO DETAILS
Brother Ash Shuura has a very good point. What if someone is a munafiq and answers "No" to your question? Does that mean he/she who does that is really a muslim lillah? Only Allah knows what is in the hearts and whether someone is truly guided or on the straight path. You will not be able to distinguish the "munafiq" from the "muslim lillah" or "mo'min lillah" by your question.
330 Say "If you hide what is in your chests or you reveal it, God will know." And He knows what is in the heavens and what is in the Earth; and God is capable of all things.
59 And recall God's blessings over you and His covenant that He has bound you with, for which you have said "We hear and obey," and be aware of God; for God knows what is inside the chests.
3539 God knows unseen of the heavens and the Earth. He is knowledgeable of what is even inside the chests.399 If you reject, then know that God is in no need of you, and He dislikes rejection for His servants. And if you are appreciative, He is pleased for you. And none shall bear the burdens of another. Then to your Lord is your return, and He will inform you of everything you had done. He is fully aware of what is inside the chests.
645 He knows what is in the heavens and the Earth, and He knows what you conceal and what you declare. And God is aware of what is inside the chests.16126 Invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and good advice, and argue with them in that which is better. Your Lord is fully aware of who is misguided from His path, and He is fully aware of the guided ones.
5330 This is the extent of their knowledge. Your Lord is fully aware of those who strayed away from His path, and He is fully aware of those who are guided.So it seems a futile exercise to spend your time and energy in asking this question to everyone. Everyone is answerable to Allah only and not to you. You should spend your time and energy in discussing something more productive as per 16126. Just a humble suggestion brother.
I would have really appreciated if you had answered my question which I noticed that you have decided not to answer. But then only Allah knows; my question will not be able to distinguish whether you will be telling the truth or not, wink so you do not have to answer ! wink
Regards,
Tanveer
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Peace,
Its like I am in New York City and I see a sign that points me(guides me) towards Califronia, yes it is certainly pointing me in the right direction, but I will require more details to get where I am going.
If I take that example, I would say it just a little differently...The sign would say, for example, take 80 all the way to California. And it surely will. What it doesn't tell you, for example, is tips about how to make your journey more pleasant or places to stay along the way, or that you could even take 70 and 15 and still get there (CA is a big state after all lol ).
Note that the purpose of the sign is fulfilled, with it, you can get there... at the same time, without it, you can still get there, might be a little tougher, but you'll get there... because what's more important than that sign, is the One who created all the signs (including sun and stars for direction) is there to guide, if only we truly believed in that and put our trust in Him. idea
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Peace be upon you Zenje,
Excellently stated!
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PEACE, ELKE,
You insist on yes or no answers...but i see that you didn't answer tavernmd yes or no question wink
Yes or no to what?
Now, to your question - i answer YES nothing needed for guidance is left out of qur'an,
Well then, your answer is "no" to my question.
BUT this question is a nonsensical one, because God says that the people that don't deserve the guidance will just be locked out from the right understanding even though they might think they are guided....veils on their eyes aso...
Nonsensical?? Would you say that to Allah when you meet Him? Whether someone is locked out or not, still does not detract from the fact that...
...relative to/specific to/pertinent to--GUIDANCE, Allah did not leave out any necessary/essential/indispensible detail from Al-Quran, which could result in an individuals going astray and inevitably going to HELL.
As for the question "are you a muslim?", the answer IMO can only be if God wills.
This is for another thread. )
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PEACE, ASHUURA,
My answer, is NO. How does that sit with you?
If your answer is "no" to the following question, well, that sits well with me.
THE QUESTION
Did Allah leave out any necessary/essential/indispensible detail from Al-Quran-- relative to/specific to/pertinent to--GUIDANCE, which could result in an individuals going astray and inevitably going to HELL? Yes or no?
Looking forward to your reply...as always.
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PEACE, IDOL,
Did Allah leave out any necessary/essential/indispensible detail from Al-Quran-- relative to/specific to/pertinent to--GUIDANCE, which could result in an individuals going astray and inevitably going to HELL? Yes or no?
Refering to THIS READING, which was written down into 114 chapters by humans, NO, there are sufficeint details to be guided...Therefore the reason you have to add "Relative to guidance" is because relative to anything else, it lacks details...
Main Entry SUFFICIENT enough to meet the needs of a situation or a proposed end.
Well, isn't the proposed end of Allah's Quran/Guidance, to lead mankind away from Hell and towards Paradise,?
Anyway, your following reply is a bit awkward for me. What, exactly, are you saying "NO" to?
Refering to THIS READING, which was written down into 114 chapters by humans, NO, there are sufficeint details to be guided...
It would be better stated as
Refering to THIS READING, which was written down into 114 chapters by humans, "YES", there are sufficeint details to be guided...
Therefore the reason you have to add "Relative to guidance" is because relative to anything else, it lacks details...
Exactly right!, because that is all Allah said Al-Quran was revealed for...to a guide, that is, bottomline, to guide mankind away from Hell and towards Paradise. Listen, I'll be the first to say right here now that Al-Quran, does not give all the details on how to build a diesel locomotive engine. In this regard...it is not fully detailed, BUT, relative to/specific to/pertinent to--GUIDANCE...it is fully guided.
Well, Idol...what took you so long?...beginning to take Allah and your credibility more seriously, eh? Good deal. )
Looking forward to your response.
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PEACE, TANVEER,
Main Entry FASALA/FULLY DETAILED expatiate in to detail distinct narrating a thing with all its particulars distinguishing decisive detailed clearly explained.
I have the Dictionary of the Holy Qur'aan by Abdul Mannan Omar with me right now and I can see that you have included as a meaning of "fasala" some meanings that are not its meanings but meanings of its various forms. You should have quoted as follows
FASALA To set apart, separate, distinguish (not "distinguishing"), set a limit, part, depart, decide (not "decisive"), set out, divide into parts, expatiate into detail, make clear (statement), distinct, judge, narrate a thing with all its particulars.
FASLUN Distinguishing, Decisive (these should be under "faslun" and not "fasala")
MUFASSALAN Clearly explained (should be under "mufassalan" and not "fasala")
FUSSILAT Detailed (should be under "fussilat" and not "fasala")
MUFASSALAT Fully detailedThe above may seem unimportant or irrelevent to you but it is very important not to intermix the meanings of various forms of a word. Its your own argument against you PAY ATTENTION TO DETAILS
I know you think you're funny but you are not. If I knew how to scan, I would have scanned all of the pages, hence, I posted the pertinent definitions which supports my position, as well as, the definitions which supports opponents position in this debate. Please do not try suggest that I was trying to hide something or that I wasn't paying attention
It doesn't matter what form fasala comes in, it will still mean fully detailed, because of the following which you didn't fully appreciate
The definition by Omar, includes both clearly and distinctly explained, as well as, detailed, because it is the inherent nature of a clearly/distinctly explained thing, to be fully detailed. Clearly/distinctly explained and fully detailed, are indissolubly/inextricably/inseparately bound together.
Do you agree?
Brother Ash Shuura has a very good point. What if someone is a munafiq and answers "No" to your question? Does that mean he/she who does that is really a muslim lillah?
Ashuura, has no point. A munafiq, already knows he or she isn't sincere, thus, they can't be Muslim anyway. Regardless, a munafiq, , can still bear witness to a truth. Now, whether or not they are sincere/accepting about that truth, well, that is another matter. My position is this, if one denys that Al-Quran, relative to/specific to/pertinent to--GUIDANCE , then, one, naturally, will seek guidance from other sources, hence, that individual, is now in great shirk.
Only Allah knows what is in the hearts and whether someone is truly guided or on the straight path. You will not be able to distinguish the "munafiq" from the "muslim lillah" or "mo'min lillah" by your question
.?? I'm not looking into anyone's heart?
So it seems a futile exercise to spend your time and energy in asking this question to everyone. Everyone is answerable to Allah only and not to you. You should spend your time and energy in discussing something more productive as per 16126. Just a humble suggestion brother
.It is never futile to get things right, especially, concerning the ultimate fate of one's souls. The question I asked isn't for my benefit , but for those who, either don't know Al-Quran is fully detailed or who aren't sure. What was/is futile are those who, tried to rationalize that Al-Quran isn't fully detailed... relative to/specific to/pertinent to--GUIDANCE.
Looking forward to your reply.
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If your answer is "no" to the following question, well, that sits well with me.
Bokmei,
I answered your question as "NO", now lets take this one more step for you.
Is it possible to answer "NO" and still be a hypocrite? YES or NO.
Any avoidance, will be seen as an admission it is YES.The question is only directed to you, others may answer if they wish.
Answering YES eliminates YOUR question since it has become REDUNDANT.
Btw, whether you say "YES" or "NO" does not sit with me either way, what does not sit well with me is YOUR behaviour.
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Bokmei,
Ashuura, has no point.
I am right, by your own admission. You are in such a muddle like a kitten with a ball of string, I will show it.
( Though I expect more and more irrational claptrap from you )
A munafiq, already knows he or she isn't sincere, thus, they can't be Muslim anyway.
Not necessarily, you think you are a muslim; But, you can still be a munafiq. If you knew the Qur'an you would know those who were unaware of their SHIRK in this life and they are SHOCKED to find out their transgressions in the next. Likewise one can be unaware they're MUNAFIQ.
Regardless, a munafiq, , can still bear witness to a truth. Now, whether or not they are sincere/accepting about that truth, well, that is another matter.
EXACTLY! Hence, you accept my POINT.
In other words, you are still none on the wiser who is munafiq and who is muslim. Your FIRST post and your DEMARCATION has FAILED. Q.E.D!
My position is this, if one denys that Al-Quran, relative to/specific to/pertinent to--GUIDANCE , then, one, naturally, will seek guidance from other sources, hence, that individual, is now in great shirk.
Your position here is not complete. You have pushed for public marcation of muslim or non. I have advocated this is a private affair, and it has NOTHING to do with you.
ALLAH determines who is MUNAFIQ who is MUSLIM in DEED and ACTION, if WORDS were WORTH anything, what an EASY thing to be MUSLIM.
Hence, your POSITION, APPROACH is FALSE.
Only Allah knows what is in the hearts and whether someone is truly guided or on the straight path. You will not be able to distinguish the "munafiq" from the "muslim lillah" or "mo'min lillah" by your question
.Tanweer speaks with truth here, instead of this pomposity, you should listen and take heed.
Peace to those who follow guidance