SOME VERY IMPORTANT QUESTIONS...
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Peace Priest Bokmei,
You insist on yes or no answers...but i see that you didn't answer tavernmd yes or no question wink
Now, to your question - i answer YES nothing needed for guidance is left out of qur'an, BUT this question is a nonsensical one, because God says that the people that don't deserve the guidance will just be locked out from the right understanding even though they might think they are guided....veils on their eyes aso...
As for the question "are you a muslim?", the answer IMO can only be if God wills.
LK
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Priest Bokmei,
GOD already knows the answer for each and every one of us, hence your question is redundant. Period.
You just don't come in to it, get use to the idea. You seem to be carrying hadithian baggage with excessive fascination in identifying people with labels.
Your only choice is to evaluate each deed and action. One person can be muslim one day and a munafiq the other. A "No" answer is something can be told by a munafiq, no problem. It does not make him GOD Alone.
OK I cleared two motives for not answering
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Self emposed inquisition I have unseated your argument, GOD knows the answer.
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Friendship I don't want your friendship as I don't like your behaviour
Hence, I can now answer
My answer, is NO. How does that sit with you?
Looking forward to your "reply".
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Peace be upon you PB,
Did Allah leave out any necessary/essential/indispensible detail from Al-Quran-- relative to/specific to/pertinent to--GUIDANCE, which could result in an individuals going astray and inevitably going to HELL? Yes or no?
Refering to THIS READING, which was written down into 114 chapters by humans, NO, there are sufficeint details to be guided, that is, to be POINTED IN THE CORRECT DIRECTION. And the direction it points us to is the FULLY DETAILED Book(Universal Law). Therefore the reason you have to add "Relative to guidance" is because relative to anything else, it lacks details. Therefore we must look to the BOOK(Al kitaab), with the guidance obtained from the God's message in what has descended to us and those before us, so we can get the FULLL DETAIL.
Its like I am in New York City and I see a sign that points me(guides me) towards Califronia, yes it is certainly pointing me in the right direction, but I will require more details to get where I am going.
For example, we are told to eat pure nutricious food, but we need details on health and nutrition to be able to follow that guidance. Or when we are told to JUDGE fair, we will need the DETAILS of each side so we can make the proper judgement regarding the 99 and 1 sheep.
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Peace Priest_Bokmei,
Main Entry FASALA/FULLY DETAILED expatiate in to detail distinct narrating a thing with all its particulars distinguishing decisive detailed clearly explained.
I have the Dictionary of the Holy Qur'aan by Abdul Mannan Omar with me right now and I can see that you have included as a meaning of "fasala" some meanings that are not its meanings but meanings of its various forms. You should have quoted as follows
FASALA To set apart, separate, distinguish (not "distinguishing"), set a limit, part, depart, decide (not "decisive"), set out, divide into parts, expatiate into detail, make clear (statement), distinct, judge, narrate a thing with all its particulars.
FASLUN Distinguishing, Decisive (these should be under "faslun" and not "fasala")
MUFASSALAN Clearly explained (should be under "mufassalan" and not "fasala")
FUSSILAT Detailed (should be under "fussilat" and not "fasala")
MUFASSALAT Fully detailedThe above may seem unimportant or irrelevent to you but it is very important not to intermix the meanings of various forms of a word. Its your own argument against you PAY ATTENTION TO DETAILS
Brother Ash Shuura has a very good point. What if someone is a munafiq and answers "No" to your question? Does that mean he/she who does that is really a muslim lillah? Only Allah knows what is in the hearts and whether someone is truly guided or on the straight path. You will not be able to distinguish the "munafiq" from the "muslim lillah" or "mo'min lillah" by your question.
330 Say "If you hide what is in your chests or you reveal it, God will know." And He knows what is in the heavens and what is in the Earth; and God is capable of all things.
59 And recall God's blessings over you and His covenant that He has bound you with, for which you have said "We hear and obey," and be aware of God; for God knows what is inside the chests.
3539 God knows unseen of the heavens and the Earth. He is knowledgeable of what is even inside the chests.399 If you reject, then know that God is in no need of you, and He dislikes rejection for His servants. And if you are appreciative, He is pleased for you. And none shall bear the burdens of another. Then to your Lord is your return, and He will inform you of everything you had done. He is fully aware of what is inside the chests.
645 He knows what is in the heavens and the Earth, and He knows what you conceal and what you declare. And God is aware of what is inside the chests.16126 Invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and good advice, and argue with them in that which is better. Your Lord is fully aware of who is misguided from His path, and He is fully aware of the guided ones.
5330 This is the extent of their knowledge. Your Lord is fully aware of those who strayed away from His path, and He is fully aware of those who are guided.So it seems a futile exercise to spend your time and energy in asking this question to everyone. Everyone is answerable to Allah only and not to you. You should spend your time and energy in discussing something more productive as per 16126. Just a humble suggestion brother.
I would have really appreciated if you had answered my question which I noticed that you have decided not to answer. But then only Allah knows; my question will not be able to distinguish whether you will be telling the truth or not, wink so you do not have to answer ! wink
Regards,
Tanveer
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Peace,
Its like I am in New York City and I see a sign that points me(guides me) towards Califronia, yes it is certainly pointing me in the right direction, but I will require more details to get where I am going.
If I take that example, I would say it just a little differently...The sign would say, for example, take 80 all the way to California. And it surely will. What it doesn't tell you, for example, is tips about how to make your journey more pleasant or places to stay along the way, or that you could even take 70 and 15 and still get there (CA is a big state after all lol ).
Note that the purpose of the sign is fulfilled, with it, you can get there... at the same time, without it, you can still get there, might be a little tougher, but you'll get there... because what's more important than that sign, is the One who created all the signs (including sun and stars for direction) is there to guide, if only we truly believed in that and put our trust in Him. idea
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Peace be upon you Zenje,
Excellently stated!
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PEACE, ELKE,
You insist on yes or no answers...but i see that you didn't answer tavernmd yes or no question wink
Yes or no to what?
Now, to your question - i answer YES nothing needed for guidance is left out of qur'an,
Well then, your answer is "no" to my question.
BUT this question is a nonsensical one, because God says that the people that don't deserve the guidance will just be locked out from the right understanding even though they might think they are guided....veils on their eyes aso...
Nonsensical?? Would you say that to Allah when you meet Him? Whether someone is locked out or not, still does not detract from the fact that...
...relative to/specific to/pertinent to--GUIDANCE, Allah did not leave out any necessary/essential/indispensible detail from Al-Quran, which could result in an individuals going astray and inevitably going to HELL.
As for the question "are you a muslim?", the answer IMO can only be if God wills.
This is for another thread. )
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PEACE, ASHUURA,
My answer, is NO. How does that sit with you?
If your answer is "no" to the following question, well, that sits well with me.
THE QUESTION
Did Allah leave out any necessary/essential/indispensible detail from Al-Quran-- relative to/specific to/pertinent to--GUIDANCE, which could result in an individuals going astray and inevitably going to HELL? Yes or no?
Looking forward to your reply...as always.
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PEACE, IDOL,
Did Allah leave out any necessary/essential/indispensible detail from Al-Quran-- relative to/specific to/pertinent to--GUIDANCE, which could result in an individuals going astray and inevitably going to HELL? Yes or no?
Refering to THIS READING, which was written down into 114 chapters by humans, NO, there are sufficeint details to be guided...Therefore the reason you have to add "Relative to guidance" is because relative to anything else, it lacks details...
Main Entry SUFFICIENT enough to meet the needs of a situation or a proposed end.
Well, isn't the proposed end of Allah's Quran/Guidance, to lead mankind away from Hell and towards Paradise,?
Anyway, your following reply is a bit awkward for me. What, exactly, are you saying "NO" to?
Refering to THIS READING, which was written down into 114 chapters by humans, NO, there are sufficeint details to be guided...
It would be better stated as
Refering to THIS READING, which was written down into 114 chapters by humans, "YES", there are sufficeint details to be guided...
Therefore the reason you have to add "Relative to guidance" is because relative to anything else, it lacks details...
Exactly right!, because that is all Allah said Al-Quran was revealed for...to a guide, that is, bottomline, to guide mankind away from Hell and towards Paradise. Listen, I'll be the first to say right here now that Al-Quran, does not give all the details on how to build a diesel locomotive engine. In this regard...it is not fully detailed, BUT, relative to/specific to/pertinent to--GUIDANCE...it is fully guided.
Well, Idol...what took you so long?...beginning to take Allah and your credibility more seriously, eh? Good deal. )
Looking forward to your response.
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PEACE, TANVEER,
Main Entry FASALA/FULLY DETAILED expatiate in to detail distinct narrating a thing with all its particulars distinguishing decisive detailed clearly explained.
I have the Dictionary of the Holy Qur'aan by Abdul Mannan Omar with me right now and I can see that you have included as a meaning of "fasala" some meanings that are not its meanings but meanings of its various forms. You should have quoted as follows
FASALA To set apart, separate, distinguish (not "distinguishing"), set a limit, part, depart, decide (not "decisive"), set out, divide into parts, expatiate into detail, make clear (statement), distinct, judge, narrate a thing with all its particulars.
FASLUN Distinguishing, Decisive (these should be under "faslun" and not "fasala")
MUFASSALAN Clearly explained (should be under "mufassalan" and not "fasala")
FUSSILAT Detailed (should be under "fussilat" and not "fasala")
MUFASSALAT Fully detailedThe above may seem unimportant or irrelevent to you but it is very important not to intermix the meanings of various forms of a word. Its your own argument against you PAY ATTENTION TO DETAILS
I know you think you're funny but you are not. If I knew how to scan, I would have scanned all of the pages, hence, I posted the pertinent definitions which supports my position, as well as, the definitions which supports opponents position in this debate. Please do not try suggest that I was trying to hide something or that I wasn't paying attention
It doesn't matter what form fasala comes in, it will still mean fully detailed, because of the following which you didn't fully appreciate
The definition by Omar, includes both clearly and distinctly explained, as well as, detailed, because it is the inherent nature of a clearly/distinctly explained thing, to be fully detailed. Clearly/distinctly explained and fully detailed, are indissolubly/inextricably/inseparately bound together.
Do you agree?
Brother Ash Shuura has a very good point. What if someone is a munafiq and answers "No" to your question? Does that mean he/she who does that is really a muslim lillah?
Ashuura, has no point. A munafiq, already knows he or she isn't sincere, thus, they can't be Muslim anyway. Regardless, a munafiq, , can still bear witness to a truth. Now, whether or not they are sincere/accepting about that truth, well, that is another matter. My position is this, if one denys that Al-Quran, relative to/specific to/pertinent to--GUIDANCE , then, one, naturally, will seek guidance from other sources, hence, that individual, is now in great shirk.
Only Allah knows what is in the hearts and whether someone is truly guided or on the straight path. You will not be able to distinguish the "munafiq" from the "muslim lillah" or "mo'min lillah" by your question
.?? I'm not looking into anyone's heart?
So it seems a futile exercise to spend your time and energy in asking this question to everyone. Everyone is answerable to Allah only and not to you. You should spend your time and energy in discussing something more productive as per 16126. Just a humble suggestion brother
.It is never futile to get things right, especially, concerning the ultimate fate of one's souls. The question I asked isn't for my benefit , but for those who, either don't know Al-Quran is fully detailed or who aren't sure. What was/is futile are those who, tried to rationalize that Al-Quran isn't fully detailed... relative to/specific to/pertinent to--GUIDANCE.
Looking forward to your reply.
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If your answer is "no" to the following question, well, that sits well with me.
Bokmei,
I answered your question as "NO", now lets take this one more step for you.
Is it possible to answer "NO" and still be a hypocrite? YES or NO.
Any avoidance, will be seen as an admission it is YES.The question is only directed to you, others may answer if they wish.
Answering YES eliminates YOUR question since it has become REDUNDANT.
Btw, whether you say "YES" or "NO" does not sit with me either way, what does not sit well with me is YOUR behaviour.
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Bokmei,
Ashuura, has no point.
I am right, by your own admission. You are in such a muddle like a kitten with a ball of string, I will show it.
( Though I expect more and more irrational claptrap from you )
A munafiq, already knows he or she isn't sincere, thus, they can't be Muslim anyway.
Not necessarily, you think you are a muslim; But, you can still be a munafiq. If you knew the Qur'an you would know those who were unaware of their SHIRK in this life and they are SHOCKED to find out their transgressions in the next. Likewise one can be unaware they're MUNAFIQ.
Regardless, a munafiq, , can still bear witness to a truth. Now, whether or not they are sincere/accepting about that truth, well, that is another matter.
EXACTLY! Hence, you accept my POINT.
In other words, you are still none on the wiser who is munafiq and who is muslim. Your FIRST post and your DEMARCATION has FAILED. Q.E.D!
My position is this, if one denys that Al-Quran, relative to/specific to/pertinent to--GUIDANCE , then, one, naturally, will seek guidance from other sources, hence, that individual, is now in great shirk.
Your position here is not complete. You have pushed for public marcation of muslim or non. I have advocated this is a private affair, and it has NOTHING to do with you.
ALLAH determines who is MUNAFIQ who is MUSLIM in DEED and ACTION, if WORDS were WORTH anything, what an EASY thing to be MUSLIM.
Hence, your POSITION, APPROACH is FALSE.
Only Allah knows what is in the hearts and whether someone is truly guided or on the straight path. You will not be able to distinguish the "munafiq" from the "muslim lillah" or "mo'min lillah" by your question
.Tanweer speaks with truth here, instead of this pomposity, you should listen and take heed.
Peace to those who follow guidance
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PEACE, ASHUURA,
PRIEST If your answer is "no" to the following question, well, that sits well with me.
I answered your question as "NO"...
THE QUESTION Did Allah leave out any necessary/essential/indispensible detail from Al-Quran-- relative to/specific to/pertinent to--GUIDANCE, which could result in an individuals going astray and inevitably going to HELL? Yes or no?
When you and the others answered "no" to my above question, and rightly so, you proved Allah's assertion that, His Quran is fully detailed for guidance. Now, for you or anyone else after this, to take any other body of work for guidance along with Allah's Book of Guidance--Al-Quran, would constitute shirk.
Not necessarily, you think you are a muslim; But, you can still be a munafiq. If you knew the Qur'an you would know those who were unaware of their SHIRK in this life and they are SHOCKED to find out their transgressions in the next. Likewise one can be unaware they're MUNAFIQ.
Interesting, please post the ayat where a munafiq is cast as being unaware that he/she is a hypocrite. It is my understanding that hypocrisy is denial of the truth. Denial is not ignorance of something, but the unacceptance of something. The hypocrite is unaccepting of the truth not ignorant of it. Now, I can see how many in the world to come, will be shocked to find that they were not Muslims at all, but polytheists. THE QUESTION, is an indicator of who is Muslim and who is not. Now, if a munafiq answers "no" to the question, well, he/she has borne witness to a truth, despite the fact that, he/she is unaccepting of that truth, hence, he/she is not a Muslim. That I don't know who is or who isn't a Muslim , has nothing to do with the reality of the situation, that is, the person knows if he/she is being sincere or not. THE QUESTION, will help people to be Muslims and not of the rejectors by keeping them focused on Al-Quran as the source of guidance.
Anyway, THE QUESTION, establishes Al-Quran as the sole "body of work", for the guidance of mankind, and that is what I set out to prove.
what does not sit well with me is YOUR behaviour.
What behavior might that be?
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PEACE, WAKAS,
THE QUESTION
Did Allah leave out any necessary/essential/indispensible detail from Al-Quran-- relative to/specific to/pertinent to--GUIDANCE, which could result in an individuals going astray and inevitably going to HELL? Yes or no?
Wakas, you are the only hold out. Are you now ready to simply answer "no" to the above question? People look to you, and rightly so, for information. By your not answering no the above question, can only reflect badly on your credibility, hence, setting the condition for people to look suspiciously at things you say.
As co-ordinator of PRL, who has gone through several hundred roots and their meanings and their occurrences, it is clear to me the form of the root matters.
Main Entry FASALA/FULLY DETAILED expatiate in to detail distinct narrating a thing with all its particulars distinguishing decisive detailed clearly explained.
Main Entry EXPATIATE to speak or write at length or in detail.
Now, do you agree with my following statement
The definition by Omar, includes both clearly and distinctly explained, as well as, detailed, because it is the inherent nature of a clearly/distinctly explained thing, to be fully detailed. Clearly/distinctly explained and fully detailed, are indissolubly/inextricably/inseparately bound together. Do you agree?
Looking forward to your reply.
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peace,
By your not answering no the above question, can only reflect badly on your credibility, hence, setting the condition for people to look suspiciously at things you say.
If people look more suspiciously on what I say, people are more likely to verify what I say.
I dont mind that. Alternatively, please see my signature.
D
Wakas
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Salaam Bokmei,
Interesting, please post the ayat where a munafiq is cast as being unaware that he/she is a hypocrite.
29 In trying to deceive GOD and those who believe, they only deceive themselves without perceiving.
Self deception without being aware
623 Their disastrous response will be, "By GOD our Lord, we never were idol worshipers."
Self deception in monotheism.
Q.E.D!
It is my understanding that hypocrisy is denial of the truth.
Your understanding is IRRELEVANT!
Your understanding based on the Qur'an is RELEVANT!
Your information is incomplete.
Denial is not ignorance of something,
Come on?!
but the unacceptance of something. The hypocrite is unaccepting of the truth not ignorant of it.
So, as long as you can be ignorant of the Qur'an, you are OK NOT follow its commandments?
FALSE!
Now, I can see how many in the world to come, will be shocked to find that they were not Muslims at all, but polytheists.
EXACTLY!
THE QUESTION, is an indicator of who is Muslim and who is not.
Who asks the question? Does GOD need to ask this question? Or is this a POINT of SELF EXAMINATION?
Now, if a munafiq answers "no" to the question, well, he/she has borne witness to a truth, despite the fact that, he/she is unaccepting of that truth, hence, he/she is not a Muslim.
You are none on the wiser, meanwhile GOD knew BEFORE you set your eyes on HIS BOOK.
The Qur'an uses methods of RATIONAL THOUGHT i.e. Questions in the WAY our MINDS WORK. For SELF EXAMINATION. Private between GOD and His servant.
7411 Let Me deal with one I created as an individual.
That I don't know who is or who isn't a Muslim , has nothing to do with the reality of the situation, that is, the person knows if he/she is being sincere or not.
In 29, they were NOT AWARE of DECEIVING themselves, so HOW can these people be AWARE they are SINCERE or NOT??
THE QUESTION, will help people to be Muslims and not of the rejectors by keeping them focused on Al-Quran as the source of guidance.
You are nearly there but not quite there. Perhaps a few yards away, but I think you started to listen.
The question is there to PROD your conscience, you may WAKE up or continue DECEIVING yourself. Meanwhile, GOD sees in EVERY, DEED and ACTION and EVERY THOUGHT, who is MUSLIM who is NOT.
MARKING is NO ones business but GODs.
Humans who MARK are SEEKING the SPOILs of THIS WORLD.
494 O you who believe, if you strike in the cause of GOD, you shall be absolutely sure. Do not say to one who offers you peace, "You are not a believer," seeking the spoils of this world. For GOD possesses infinite spoils. Remember that you used to be like them, and GOD blessed you. Therefore, you shall be absolutely sure (before you strike). GOD is fully Cognizant of everything you do.
Peace be upon those who follow guidance!
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PEACE, WAKAS,
peace,
By your not answering no the above question, can only reflect badly on your credibility, hence, setting the condition for people to look suspiciously at things you say.
If people look more suspiciously on what I say, people are more likely to verify what I say.
I dont mind that. Alternatively, please see my signature.
D
Wakas
O.k. I'll accept that, however, it is thin line you walk...credibility...is worth more than gold.
No, can you answer the following
Main Entry FASALA/FULLY DETAILED expatiate in to detail distinct narrating a thing with all its particulars distinguishing decisive detailed clearly explained.
Main Entry EXPATIATE to speak or write at length or in detail.
Now, do you agree with my following statement
The definition by Omar, includes both clearly and distinctly explained, as well as, detailed, because it is the inherent nature of a clearly/distinctly explained thing, to be fully detailed. Clearly/distinctly explained and fully detailed, are indissolubly/inextricably/inseparately bound together. Do you agree?
THE QUESTION
Did Allah leave out any necessary/essential/indispensible detail from Al-Quran-- relative to/specific to/pertinent to--GUIDANCE, which could result in an individuals going astray and inevitably going to HELL? Yes or no?
Looking forward to your reply.
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PEACE, ASHUURA,
PRIEST Interesting, please post the ayat where a munafiq is cast as being unaware that he/she is a hypocrite.
29 In trying to deceive GOD and those who believe, they only deceive themselves without perceiving.
You don't understand the above ayat. It isn't saying that the deceivers are unaware that they are deceivers, rather, it is saying the deceivers aren't aware that they are only hurting themselves and not the believers.
623 Their disastrous response will be, "By GOD our Lord, we never were idol worshipers."
Self deception in monotheism.
Q.E.D!
Sorry, you missed again. I already stated in my last post that many will be shocked to find out that they are polytheists, so your comment here does not support your assertion that munafiqs will be shocked to find out that were, in fact, munafiqs. Please get your ideas organized.
It is my understanding that hypocrisy is denial of the truth.
Your understanding is IRRELEVANT!
Your understanding based on the Qur'an is RELEVANT!
Your information is incomplete.
I did not say it was my "opinion", I said, it is my "understanding".
Whenever I say my "understanding", it means...based on Al-Quran. Can you apprehend the difference between opinion and understanding?Denial is not ignorance of something, but the unacceptance of something. The hypocrite is unaccepting of the truth not ignorant of it.
Come on?! So, as long as you can be ignorant of the Qur'an, you are OK NOT follow its commandments?
FALSE!
Come on, what?
Main Entry DENIAL refusal to admit the truth or reality a psychological defense mechanism in which confrontation with a personal problem or with reality is avoided by denying the existence of the problem or reality.
Main Entry IGNORANCE destitute of knowledge or education lacking knowledge or comprehension of the thing specified a lack of knowledge or awareness of a particular thing.
Are you satisfied now? Can you apprehend the difference between these two terms?
PRIEST Now, I can see how many in the world to come, will be shocked to find that they were not Muslims at all, but polytheists.
EXACTLY!
But the hypocrites, will not be shocked to find out that they are hypocrites.
THE QUESTION, is an indicator of who is Muslim and who is not.
Who asks the question? Does GOD need to ask this question? Or is this a POINT of SELF EXAMINATION?
Now, if a munafiq answers "no" to the question, well, he/she has borne witness to a truth, despite the fact that, he/she is unaccepting of that truth, hence, he/she is not a Muslim.
You are none on the wiser, meanwhile GOD knew BEFORE you set your eyes on HIS BOOK. The Qur'an uses methods of RATIONAL THOUGHT i.e. Questions in the WAY our MINDS WORK. For SELF EXAMINATION. Private between GOD and His servant.
7411 Let Me deal with one I created as an individual.
Your response has nothing to do with what I asserted, please try again.
PRIEST That I don't know who is or who isn't a Muslim , has nothing to do with the reality of the situation, that is, the person knows if he/she is being sincere or not.
In 29, they were NOT AWARE of DECEIVING themselves, so HOW can these people be AWARE they are SINCERE or NOT??
They were/are, however, aware that they are deceiving others, and that is what a hypocrite is.
PRIEST THE QUESTION, will help people to be Muslims and not of the rejectors by keeping them focused on Al-Quran as the source of guidance.
You are nearly there but not quite there. Perhaps a few yards away, but I think you started to listen.
LOL! On the contrary, I arrived along time ago. It is you who, is struggling to catch up.
The question is there to PROD your conscience, you may WAKE up or continue DECEIVING yourself. Meanwhile, GOD sees in EVERY, DEED and ACTION and EVERY THOUGHT, who is MUSLIM who is NOT. MARKING is NO ones business but GODs. Humans who MARK are SEEKING the SPOILs of THIS WORLD.
I didn't mark anyone.
You need to calm down and collect yourself Ashuura, because you are making much sense right now.
Looking forward to your reply.
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Peace be upon you PB,
Exactly right!, because that is all Allah said Al-Quran was revealed for...to a guide, that is, bottomline, to guide mankind away from Hell and towards Paradise. Listen, I'll be the first to say right here now that Al-Quran, does not give all the details on how to build a diesel locomotive engine. In this regard...it is not fully detailed, BUT, relative to/specific to/pertinent to--GUIDANCE...it is fully guided.
Well, Idol...what took you so long?...beginning to take Allah and your credibility more seriously, eh? Good deal.
I have answered the same way I have asnwered form the beginning, somehow now you like my answer. My question is what is next? Where is all this "yes or no" heading? I am sure you were trying to prove some point, but I have yet to see what you were stating. My position stands regarding "kitaab" and "quraan", quran guides to al kitaab.
