The problem with Islam
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Here is a list of sources of Muhammads Inspiration
Imrul Qays?an ancient poet of Arabia who died a few decades before Muhammad?s birth
Zayd b. Amr b. Naufal?an ?apostate? of his time who preached and propagated Hanifism
Labid?another poet
Hasan b. Thabit?the official poet of Muhammad
Salman, the Persian?Muhammad?s confidante? and an advisor
Jabr?a Christian neighbour of Muhammad
Ibn Qumta?a Christian slave
Khadijah?Muhammad?s first wife
Waraqa?Khadijah?s cousin brother
Ubay b. Ka?b?Muhammad?s secretary and a Qur?an scribe
Muhammad himself
You mean Muhammad knew... He knew because the people of his time begain to question him, so he adds self serving verses to cover himself
People who say these kinds of things, The God Himself calls them wicked.
Tell me, which one of the above narrated all the hundreds of scientific facts present in Qur'aan, which were discovered or confirmed within the last century, without a SINGLE contradiction ?
See the following link
http//members.aol.com/silence004/
Which one of the above narrated the prophesies in Qur'aan that came true later on ?
Which one of the above originated the magnificient literary masterpieces ?
Here is what The God says about people like Albion
395 Whoever invents lies about God after this, these are the wicked.
450 See how they invent upon God the lies; is that not enough as a clear sin?
623 And who is more wicked than one who invents lies about God, or denies His revelations! The wicked will never succeed.
695 And who is more wicked than one who invents lies about God, or says "It has been inspired to me," when We did not inspire anything to him; or who says "I will bring down the same as what God has sent down." And if you could only see the wicked at the moments of death when the Angels have their arms opened "Bring yourselves out, today you will be given the severest punishment for what you used to say about God without truth, and you used to be arrogant towards His revelations."
736 Who is more wicked than one who invents lies about God, or denies His revelations? These will receive their recompense from the record; so that when Our messengers come to take them, they will Say "Where are those whom you used to call on besides God?" they said "They have abandoned us!" and they bore witness upon themselves that they were rejecters.
1018 Who is more wicked than one who invents lies about God or denies His revelations? The criminals will never succeed.
1119 And who is more wicked than one who invents lies about God? They will be displayed before their Lord, and the witnesses will Say "These are the ones who lied about their Lord." Alas, God's curse will be upon the wicked.
1816 "Here are our people, they have taken gods besides Him, while they do not come with any clear authority. Who then is more wicked than one who invents lies about God?"The God knew what people like Albion would say
255 And those who rejected said "This is but a falsehood that he invented and other people have helped him with it; for they have come with what is wrong and fabricated."
256 And they said "Tales of the people of old, he wrote them down while they were being dictated to him morning and evening."This is what will happen to people like Albion on the Last Day
2876 And We will extract from every nation a witness, then We will Say "Bring forth your proof." They will then realise that all truth belongs with God, and what they had invented will abandon them.
349 "Has he invented a lie against God, or is there a madness in him?" Indeed, those who do not believe in the Hereafter will be in a retribution and far straying.Here is the challenge for the wicked !
1039 Or do they say he invented it? Say "Then bring a chapter like it, and call upon whoever you can besides God if you are truthful!"
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Tanveer, I have read that article long before you pointed it out as well as most articles on free-mind. I have read the Quran multiple times and have seen those verses many times before. I'm not blind so you can save yourself the time and quit posting the same thing over and over again.
You say I am making too many assumptions, I can say the same about you. You assume the opposite of everything I assume.
You ask for solid evidence of these events. I never claimed I have solid evidence. If I did I wouldn't be asking questions. What I am trying to do is construct a possible scenerio of what happened following the death of Muhammad. Why do you find this so objectional? Do you have to go home and face a barrage of questions from your family concerning your beliefs? Do you have to answer them when they bring up written accounts of the early Sunni practices of Islam? Do you have to answer them when they ask you to bring proof of the corruption? Has your Sunni family ever asked you to give them a logical explanation of what happened after Muhammad? Well they sure have asked me, and its not easy. Its not easy discarding 1400 years of history, tradition, and 'logic' while not having a decent explanation.
I mentioned Mecca was probably built a century or 2 before Muhammad and I was making reference to your own comment that there is no historical evidence of such a town before Islam. Ofcourse you would rather discard the history of the whole world and just pretend nothing matters. That thinking is no better than that of right-wing Christians who think the world is 6000 years old. So if you are done trying to dodge the issue, why don't you come up with some sort of an explanation of what happened. If you are unable to find some logical explanation, then all you are going by is a big fat assumption being that Muhammad had no care of the Kabah and his entire family and everyone who had supported him turned their were lying for the 23 years he was alive. Thats a much greater assumption than all of mine combined.
Uncovering Meccan history
http//religionresearchinstitute.org/mecca/classical.htm
http//religionresearchinstitute.org/mecca/construction.htm -
Peace Riz,
You say I am making too many assumptions, I can say the same about you. You assume the opposite of everything I assume.
Qur'aanic facts and archeological evidences are assumptions ??? hmm
I'm not blind so you can save yourself the time and quit posting the same thing over and over again.
You sure about that ? are you ?
Juss kiddin !!
Do you have to answer them when they ask you to bring proof of the corruption?
Al-Qur'aan is the biggest proof brother. Whoever does not accept that is rejecting The God's revelations and The God will deal with them on the Last Day. Just worry about yourself first. You are answerable to The God only, not your friends or forefathers.
Ofcourse you would rather discard the history of the whole world and just pretend nothing matters.
When there is no solid proof, then yes you can discard all the history (fiction agreed upon) especially when there is solid proof otherwise (Al-Qur'aan).
I never claimed I have solid evidence.
Then please do not build scenarios on assumptions and conjecture, and do not state things as FACT when you have no knowledge.
1737 And do not uphold what you have no knowledge of. For the hearing, eyesight, and mind, all these you are responsible for.
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You have still not addressed the problem.
I would still like to see a probably scenerio. This problem can not just be ignored, especially if one is to have a dialog with Sunnis.
And btw, what archaelogical evidence have you given again? I presented muslim/non-muslim writings concerning Islamic practices and Mecca, pre-Islam poetry, tried using logic but you rejected it all. I don't remember you giving me any archeaological evidence.
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Salaamun alaikum Riz,
When I read your first posting, I was very sympathetic to your problem because I walk that path myself. Supposedly , you were a person who accepts al-quraan as his criterion yet doesn't know how to deal with the multiplicity of interpretation coming his way. Now, I can see that is clearly not the case.
What you seek is something al-quraan DOES NOT offer. You feel confused but this is because the sources you deal with are from human beings and will of course breed confusion. Maybe they were even placed there TO confuse, who knows.
The fact is, you refuse Al-Quraan's position which is to leave the events of the past well alone (2/141).
Al-Quraan even goes further and says
O ye who believe! ASK NOT about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. But if ye ask about things when THE QURAN is being revealed, they will be made plain to you, God will forgive those for God is Oft- forgiving, Most Forbearing. (5/101)I'm not sure how you can call yourself Quranic when you place sources of history above the Quran.
Anyway, good luck in your search. May you find what you're looking for.
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Just to add to brother mquran's post
2145 And if you come to those who have been given the Scripture WITH EVERY SIGN they will not follow your focal point, nor will you follow their focal point, nor will some of them even follow each others focal point. And if you were to follow their desires after the knowledge that has come to you, then you would be one of the wicked.
2146 Those to whom We have given the Scripture know it as they know their own children; and a group of them hides the truth while they know.
2147 The truth is from your Lord, SO DO NOT BE ONE OF THOSE WHO DOUBT. -
Hey guys,
Thanks for your posts. They have been helpful. My questions weren't really answered, but you guys did point out things which I was forgetting about. I will continue my search and may Allah guide us all.
Oh Riz, why have you given up so easily?
mquran and tanveer had nothing in the end except to throw quranic verses at you, to frighten into accepting their version of events -)
That is a cowards way out for them!!!
(and I think they are fairly competent at it!) -)Be brave man, don't be so eager to drink your cup of hemlock
so soon!!!
-)Regards,
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mquran and tanveer had nothing in the end except to throw quranic verses at you, to frighten into accepting their version of events
'nothing but the quran', right ? What else do you want ? The UN human rights commission declaration ? Would that satisfy you ? Because the Quran is 'a truth' , right ?
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mquran and tanveer had nothing in the end except to throw quranic verses at you, to frighten into accepting their version of events
'nothing but the quran', right ? What else do you want ? The UN human rights commission declaration ? Would that satisfy you ? Because the Quran is 'a truth' , right ?
So throwin quranic verses at Riz will resolve his questions, right? because quran contains everything, right? from knowledge of how to make planes to unlocking the secrets of the atom right? -) (and also it contains your story too, wow!...)
Regards,
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Peace for everybody,
As Qur'an says, Muhammad was not the father of any men so he hadn't any son ( or as traditionally it's believed, all of them died). I think the answers of the main problem could be solved if we turn back to the "Fitna". It was just a question of succesion?? Or it was Only Qur'an against Qur'an & Sunna??
When Muhammad arrived to Mecca he destroyed all the idols but left the sanctuary on. He just converted it into a masjid (a place to pray, to reflect about God, to be with other brothers&sisters and debate etc). He then died. The people of the center of Arabia could not read the real Qur'an reveled in the north so that's why they had to put the dots and vowels to read and understand. Obviously, that's why Muhammad could not been an inhabitant of Mecca because their language and his was not exactly the same. The arabic from Meca developed from the southern one, not from the northern.
I don't think Muhammad was a conqueror. I think he fight only those people who wanted him or the believers dead. Probably the next khalifas expanded the empire. Omar above all.
Well...this is just a beginning...only conjecture because now it's not supported by anything...but I think is a plausible explanation.
Peace,
nur
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...because quran contains everything, right? from knowledge of how to make planes to unlocking the secrets of the atom right? )
Because that's what Riz was talking about (making planes and secrets of the atom) right? )In a way, yes, Riz's contention was that it DOES NOT contain these information -) but for mquran it even contains HIS own story, so thats something right?
Regards,
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Hey LoteTree,
I haven't given up, its just that this thread was getting no where. People were just starting to get frustrated with each other and in the end I just had verses and articles presented to me which I have seen countless times. While I believe in the supreme authority of the Quran, it doesn't completly answer all questions I have regarding what happened after Muhammad and the significance of the Kaba. It seems to be an issue of interpretation both on the Sunnis part and on "our" part. I think it is important to look back into history to give us a better picture of what happened. History always seems to be a victim to the religous right as it is always ignored and viewed as insignificant.
Either way, I will continue my search and probably some new threads or posts in the Hajj section of the forum later.
Peace.
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peace be upon you riz,
History always seems to be a victim to the religous right as it is always ignored and viewed as insignificant.
I don't get how you're saying this, the sunnis or the "religious right" practically worship history, they use it to derive all their doctrines, in fact the one that Christians worship is history, perhaps you are saying that they don't look at the whole picture of history but only what they want to see, personally I myself see most history as conjecture and hearsay and cannot be ultimately proven, I think archeology is a better tool to determine what went on in the past
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It is not history they worship, rather it is traditions which have no basis in history. If the Christians opened their eyes and actually looked at what happened after Jesus(Pauls motives, Church politics, Roman intervention and influence), they would realize that their traditions are no more than fabricated tales. The same applies to Muslims. The situation with Islam is much more difficult however, because the writers of Muslim history and the events transpiring around them were Muslims. That is why it is difficult to figure our Muslim origins, but it is not impossible.
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344 This is from the news of the unseen that We inspire to you. You were not with them when they drew straws as to which one of them will be charged with Mary; you were not with them when they disputed.
2844 You were not on the western side of the mount when We decreed the command to Moses. You were not a witness.
idea
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Peace Riz,
I presented muslim/non-muslim writings concerning Islamic practices and Mecca, pre-Islam poetry, tried using logic but you rejected it all
The muslim and non-muslim writings you quoted were all dated after the time of Muhammad and refer to practices after Muhammad's time and not during his time.
There is ZERO evidence of so called pre-Islam poetry.
What logic ? making assumptions and conjectures, considering corrupted, fabricated, conjectural evidence and basing your conclusions and arguments on that is logic ?
what archaelogical evidence have you given again? .......... I don't remember you giving me any archeaological evidence.
Read my posts again.
My questions weren't really answered
Read all our posts again. Me and others have answered all your questions many times already but I guess you do not want to accept those answers and the Qur'aanic evidence or have not read all our posts. On one hand you say you are not blind and you complain about me repeating information. On the other hand, I clearly post something and you come back asking for the same thing again.
What The Qur'aan tells us is ENOUGH for our guidance. What Qur'aan does not mention has ZERO importance or significance relevant to our guidance.
I just had verses.......
and that is not enough ?
While I believe in the supreme authority of the Quran, it doesn't completly answer all questions I have regarding what happened after Muhammad and the significance of the Kaba.
What happened immediately after Muhammad has ZERO importance as far as we are concerned. The Qur'aan contains all the necessary answers and anything not mentioned in Qur'aan has ZERO importance as far as our guidance is concerned.
Al-Qur'aan says that not once but TWICE to stress it, brother mquran already posted it but I will repeat it
2134 That was a nation that has passed away; to them is what they have earned, and to you is what you have earned; and you will not be asked regarding what they did.
2141 That was a nation that passed away, to them is what they earned and to you is what you have earned; you will not be asked about what they did.Al-Qur'aan tells you the significance of Kaaba, read the relevant ayaat. That is enough for guidance and any information other than that is completely unnecessary.
If you are not satisfied with the Qur'aanic ayaat/evidence then nothing will ever satisfy you.
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Peace Nur,
Looks like you are falling in the same trap of upholding something without any knowledge.
When Muhammad arrived to Mecca he destroyed all the idols but left the sanctuary on. He just converted it into a masjid (a place to pray, to reflect about God, to be with other brothers&sisters and debate etc).
Bring us the evidence of your underlined conjecture.
The people of the center of Arabia could not read the real Qur'an reveled in the north so that's why they had to put the dots and vowels to read and understand.
Again, what is the evidence of this conjecture ???
The Qur'aan clearly calls itself "kitabun marqoomun" (8310) Please see the following link where brother Ayman shows how marqoom means "whose letters are dotted".
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3673&highlight=idiots+guide
because their language and his was not exactly the same.
What evidence for this conjecture ?
The arabic from Meca developed from the southern one, not from the northern.
What is the southern one ? the southern what ?
only conjecture because now it's not supported by anything...but I think is a plausible explanation.
At least you admit its conjecture. Since when explanations are built on conjecture ???