The problem with Islam
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You have still not addressed the problem.
I would still like to see a probably scenerio. This problem can not just be ignored, especially if one is to have a dialog with Sunnis.
And btw, what archaelogical evidence have you given again? I presented muslim/non-muslim writings concerning Islamic practices and Mecca, pre-Islam poetry, tried using logic but you rejected it all. I don't remember you giving me any archeaological evidence.
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Salaamun alaikum Riz,
When I read your first posting, I was very sympathetic to your problem because I walk that path myself. Supposedly , you were a person who accepts al-quraan as his criterion yet doesn't know how to deal with the multiplicity of interpretation coming his way. Now, I can see that is clearly not the case.
What you seek is something al-quraan DOES NOT offer. You feel confused but this is because the sources you deal with are from human beings and will of course breed confusion. Maybe they were even placed there TO confuse, who knows.
The fact is, you refuse Al-Quraan's position which is to leave the events of the past well alone (2/141).
Al-Quraan even goes further and says
O ye who believe! ASK NOT about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. But if ye ask about things when THE QURAN is being revealed, they will be made plain to you, God will forgive those for God is Oft- forgiving, Most Forbearing. (5/101)I'm not sure how you can call yourself Quranic when you place sources of history above the Quran.
Anyway, good luck in your search. May you find what you're looking for.
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Just to add to brother mquran's post
2145 And if you come to those who have been given the Scripture WITH EVERY SIGN they will not follow your focal point, nor will you follow their focal point, nor will some of them even follow each others focal point. And if you were to follow their desires after the knowledge that has come to you, then you would be one of the wicked.
2146 Those to whom We have given the Scripture know it as they know their own children; and a group of them hides the truth while they know.
2147 The truth is from your Lord, SO DO NOT BE ONE OF THOSE WHO DOUBT. -
Hey guys,
Thanks for your posts. They have been helpful. My questions weren't really answered, but you guys did point out things which I was forgetting about. I will continue my search and may Allah guide us all.
Oh Riz, why have you given up so easily?
mquran and tanveer had nothing in the end except to throw quranic verses at you, to frighten into accepting their version of events -)
That is a cowards way out for them!!!
(and I think they are fairly competent at it!) -)Be brave man, don't be so eager to drink your cup of hemlock
so soon!!!
-)Regards,
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mquran and tanveer had nothing in the end except to throw quranic verses at you, to frighten into accepting their version of events
'nothing but the quran', right ? What else do you want ? The UN human rights commission declaration ? Would that satisfy you ? Because the Quran is 'a truth' , right ?
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mquran and tanveer had nothing in the end except to throw quranic verses at you, to frighten into accepting their version of events
'nothing but the quran', right ? What else do you want ? The UN human rights commission declaration ? Would that satisfy you ? Because the Quran is 'a truth' , right ?
So throwin quranic verses at Riz will resolve his questions, right? because quran contains everything, right? from knowledge of how to make planes to unlocking the secrets of the atom right? -) (and also it contains your story too, wow!...)
Regards,
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Peace for everybody,
As Qur'an says, Muhammad was not the father of any men so he hadn't any son ( or as traditionally it's believed, all of them died). I think the answers of the main problem could be solved if we turn back to the "Fitna". It was just a question of succesion?? Or it was Only Qur'an against Qur'an & Sunna??
When Muhammad arrived to Mecca he destroyed all the idols but left the sanctuary on. He just converted it into a masjid (a place to pray, to reflect about God, to be with other brothers&sisters and debate etc). He then died. The people of the center of Arabia could not read the real Qur'an reveled in the north so that's why they had to put the dots and vowels to read and understand. Obviously, that's why Muhammad could not been an inhabitant of Mecca because their language and his was not exactly the same. The arabic from Meca developed from the southern one, not from the northern.
I don't think Muhammad was a conqueror. I think he fight only those people who wanted him or the believers dead. Probably the next khalifas expanded the empire. Omar above all.
Well...this is just a beginning...only conjecture because now it's not supported by anything...but I think is a plausible explanation.
Peace,
nur
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...because quran contains everything, right? from knowledge of how to make planes to unlocking the secrets of the atom right? )
Because that's what Riz was talking about (making planes and secrets of the atom) right? )In a way, yes, Riz's contention was that it DOES NOT contain these information -) but for mquran it even contains HIS own story, so thats something right?
Regards,
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Hey LoteTree,
I haven't given up, its just that this thread was getting no where. People were just starting to get frustrated with each other and in the end I just had verses and articles presented to me which I have seen countless times. While I believe in the supreme authority of the Quran, it doesn't completly answer all questions I have regarding what happened after Muhammad and the significance of the Kaba. It seems to be an issue of interpretation both on the Sunnis part and on "our" part. I think it is important to look back into history to give us a better picture of what happened. History always seems to be a victim to the religous right as it is always ignored and viewed as insignificant.
Either way, I will continue my search and probably some new threads or posts in the Hajj section of the forum later.
Peace.
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peace be upon you riz,
History always seems to be a victim to the religous right as it is always ignored and viewed as insignificant.
I don't get how you're saying this, the sunnis or the "religious right" practically worship history, they use it to derive all their doctrines, in fact the one that Christians worship is history, perhaps you are saying that they don't look at the whole picture of history but only what they want to see, personally I myself see most history as conjecture and hearsay and cannot be ultimately proven, I think archeology is a better tool to determine what went on in the past
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It is not history they worship, rather it is traditions which have no basis in history. If the Christians opened their eyes and actually looked at what happened after Jesus(Pauls motives, Church politics, Roman intervention and influence), they would realize that their traditions are no more than fabricated tales. The same applies to Muslims. The situation with Islam is much more difficult however, because the writers of Muslim history and the events transpiring around them were Muslims. That is why it is difficult to figure our Muslim origins, but it is not impossible.
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344 This is from the news of the unseen that We inspire to you. You were not with them when they drew straws as to which one of them will be charged with Mary; you were not with them when they disputed.
2844 You were not on the western side of the mount when We decreed the command to Moses. You were not a witness.
idea
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Peace Riz,
I presented muslim/non-muslim writings concerning Islamic practices and Mecca, pre-Islam poetry, tried using logic but you rejected it all
The muslim and non-muslim writings you quoted were all dated after the time of Muhammad and refer to practices after Muhammad's time and not during his time.
There is ZERO evidence of so called pre-Islam poetry.
What logic ? making assumptions and conjectures, considering corrupted, fabricated, conjectural evidence and basing your conclusions and arguments on that is logic ?
what archaelogical evidence have you given again? .......... I don't remember you giving me any archeaological evidence.
Read my posts again.
My questions weren't really answered
Read all our posts again. Me and others have answered all your questions many times already but I guess you do not want to accept those answers and the Qur'aanic evidence or have not read all our posts. On one hand you say you are not blind and you complain about me repeating information. On the other hand, I clearly post something and you come back asking for the same thing again.
What The Qur'aan tells us is ENOUGH for our guidance. What Qur'aan does not mention has ZERO importance or significance relevant to our guidance.
I just had verses.......
and that is not enough ?
While I believe in the supreme authority of the Quran, it doesn't completly answer all questions I have regarding what happened after Muhammad and the significance of the Kaba.
What happened immediately after Muhammad has ZERO importance as far as we are concerned. The Qur'aan contains all the necessary answers and anything not mentioned in Qur'aan has ZERO importance as far as our guidance is concerned.
Al-Qur'aan says that not once but TWICE to stress it, brother mquran already posted it but I will repeat it
2134 That was a nation that has passed away; to them is what they have earned, and to you is what you have earned; and you will not be asked regarding what they did.
2141 That was a nation that passed away, to them is what they earned and to you is what you have earned; you will not be asked about what they did.Al-Qur'aan tells you the significance of Kaaba, read the relevant ayaat. That is enough for guidance and any information other than that is completely unnecessary.
If you are not satisfied with the Qur'aanic ayaat/evidence then nothing will ever satisfy you.
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Peace Nur,
Looks like you are falling in the same trap of upholding something without any knowledge.
When Muhammad arrived to Mecca he destroyed all the idols but left the sanctuary on. He just converted it into a masjid (a place to pray, to reflect about God, to be with other brothers&sisters and debate etc).
Bring us the evidence of your underlined conjecture.
The people of the center of Arabia could not read the real Qur'an reveled in the north so that's why they had to put the dots and vowels to read and understand.
Again, what is the evidence of this conjecture ???
The Qur'aan clearly calls itself "kitabun marqoomun" (8310) Please see the following link where brother Ayman shows how marqoom means "whose letters are dotted".
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3673&highlight=idiots+guide
because their language and his was not exactly the same.
What evidence for this conjecture ?
The arabic from Meca developed from the southern one, not from the northern.
What is the southern one ? the southern what ?
only conjecture because now it's not supported by anything...but I think is a plausible explanation.
At least you admit its conjecture. Since when explanations are built on conjecture ???
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mquran and tanveer had nothing in the end except to throw quranic verses at you, to frighten into accepting their version of events
That is a cowards way out for them!!!
(and I think they are fairly competent at it!)5329 While they had no knowledge about this; they only followed conjecture. And conjecture is no substitute for the truth. So disregard he who turns away from Our reminder, and only desires this worldly life.
3936 Is God not enough for His servant? And they frighten you with others beside Him. And whomever God sends astray, then for him there will be no guide. And whomever God guides, then there will be none that can mislead him. Is God not Noble, with Vengeance?
635 We know that you are saddened by what they say; they are not rejecting you, but it is God's revelations which the wicked disregard.
3954 Lest a soul will Say "How sorry I am for disregarding God's path; and I was certainly one of those who mocked."
2211 This worldly life has been made pleasing to the disbelievers, and they mock those who believe. And those who are righteous will be above them on the Day of Resurrection;
67 They have denied the truth when it came to them. The news will ultimately come to them of what they were mocking.
3010 Then the end of those who did evil was evil, that is because they denied God's signs, and they used to mock them.
4533 And the evils of their works will become evident to them, and the very thing they ridiculed will be their doom.
4912 O you who believe, let not a people ridicule other people, for they may be better than they. Nor shall any women ridicule other women, for they may be better than they. Nor shall you mock one another, or call each other names. Evil indeed is the reversion to wickedness after attaining faith. And anyone who does not repent, then these are the transgressors.
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Peace tanverrmd,
I think you missed the point of my post. My intention was not to give evidences of what I was saying. Riz wanted another plausible explanation about what could happened then, back on the time of the Prophet. I gave him a logic story (conjectures as I remarked) and as you I want somebody to prove if this could have happened in reality.
About the northern and southern dialects, in islamic awareness there are some manuscripts from the Pre-Islamic era. You will see that all the classical arabic manuscripts have been found in the north of saudi arabia with greek or syriac or nabatean. The script from the south is different. And these remains have been found as far as Madain Saleh (before the Prophet) and Medina (during the Prophet's time). 50 years later appears an inscription of Muawiya in Taif. It's quite suspicious that no arabic inscriptions from Yahiliya have been found there.
Anyway...I have no time now to do research and try to find evidences to all this. I will try later. Keep looking 4 the truth my brother )
See ya.
nur