The problem with Islam
-
...because quran contains everything, right? from knowledge of how to make planes to unlocking the secrets of the atom right? )
Because that's what Riz was talking about (making planes and secrets of the atom) right? )In a way, yes, Riz's contention was that it DOES NOT contain these information -) but for mquran it even contains HIS own story, so thats something right?
Regards,
-
Hey LoteTree,
I haven't given up, its just that this thread was getting no where. People were just starting to get frustrated with each other and in the end I just had verses and articles presented to me which I have seen countless times. While I believe in the supreme authority of the Quran, it doesn't completly answer all questions I have regarding what happened after Muhammad and the significance of the Kaba. It seems to be an issue of interpretation both on the Sunnis part and on "our" part. I think it is important to look back into history to give us a better picture of what happened. History always seems to be a victim to the religous right as it is always ignored and viewed as insignificant.
Either way, I will continue my search and probably some new threads or posts in the Hajj section of the forum later.
Peace.
-
peace be upon you riz,
History always seems to be a victim to the religous right as it is always ignored and viewed as insignificant.
I don't get how you're saying this, the sunnis or the "religious right" practically worship history, they use it to derive all their doctrines, in fact the one that Christians worship is history, perhaps you are saying that they don't look at the whole picture of history but only what they want to see, personally I myself see most history as conjecture and hearsay and cannot be ultimately proven, I think archeology is a better tool to determine what went on in the past
-
It is not history they worship, rather it is traditions which have no basis in history. If the Christians opened their eyes and actually looked at what happened after Jesus(Pauls motives, Church politics, Roman intervention and influence), they would realize that their traditions are no more than fabricated tales. The same applies to Muslims. The situation with Islam is much more difficult however, because the writers of Muslim history and the events transpiring around them were Muslims. That is why it is difficult to figure our Muslim origins, but it is not impossible.
-
344 This is from the news of the unseen that We inspire to you. You were not with them when they drew straws as to which one of them will be charged with Mary; you were not with them when they disputed.
2844 You were not on the western side of the mount when We decreed the command to Moses. You were not a witness.
idea
-
Peace Riz,
I presented muslim/non-muslim writings concerning Islamic practices and Mecca, pre-Islam poetry, tried using logic but you rejected it all
The muslim and non-muslim writings you quoted were all dated after the time of Muhammad and refer to practices after Muhammad's time and not during his time.
There is ZERO evidence of so called pre-Islam poetry.
What logic ? making assumptions and conjectures, considering corrupted, fabricated, conjectural evidence and basing your conclusions and arguments on that is logic ?
what archaelogical evidence have you given again? .......... I don't remember you giving me any archeaological evidence.
Read my posts again.
My questions weren't really answered
Read all our posts again. Me and others have answered all your questions many times already but I guess you do not want to accept those answers and the Qur'aanic evidence or have not read all our posts. On one hand you say you are not blind and you complain about me repeating information. On the other hand, I clearly post something and you come back asking for the same thing again.
What The Qur'aan tells us is ENOUGH for our guidance. What Qur'aan does not mention has ZERO importance or significance relevant to our guidance.
I just had verses.......
and that is not enough ?
While I believe in the supreme authority of the Quran, it doesn't completly answer all questions I have regarding what happened after Muhammad and the significance of the Kaba.
What happened immediately after Muhammad has ZERO importance as far as we are concerned. The Qur'aan contains all the necessary answers and anything not mentioned in Qur'aan has ZERO importance as far as our guidance is concerned.
Al-Qur'aan says that not once but TWICE to stress it, brother mquran already posted it but I will repeat it
2134 That was a nation that has passed away; to them is what they have earned, and to you is what you have earned; and you will not be asked regarding what they did.
2141 That was a nation that passed away, to them is what they earned and to you is what you have earned; you will not be asked about what they did.Al-Qur'aan tells you the significance of Kaaba, read the relevant ayaat. That is enough for guidance and any information other than that is completely unnecessary.
If you are not satisfied with the Qur'aanic ayaat/evidence then nothing will ever satisfy you.
-
Peace Nur,
Looks like you are falling in the same trap of upholding something without any knowledge.
When Muhammad arrived to Mecca he destroyed all the idols but left the sanctuary on. He just converted it into a masjid (a place to pray, to reflect about God, to be with other brothers&sisters and debate etc).
Bring us the evidence of your underlined conjecture.
The people of the center of Arabia could not read the real Qur'an reveled in the north so that's why they had to put the dots and vowels to read and understand.
Again, what is the evidence of this conjecture ???
The Qur'aan clearly calls itself "kitabun marqoomun" (8310) Please see the following link where brother Ayman shows how marqoom means "whose letters are dotted".
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3673&highlight=idiots+guide
because their language and his was not exactly the same.
What evidence for this conjecture ?
The arabic from Meca developed from the southern one, not from the northern.
What is the southern one ? the southern what ?
only conjecture because now it's not supported by anything...but I think is a plausible explanation.
At least you admit its conjecture. Since when explanations are built on conjecture ???
-
mquran and tanveer had nothing in the end except to throw quranic verses at you, to frighten into accepting their version of events
That is a cowards way out for them!!!
(and I think they are fairly competent at it!)5329 While they had no knowledge about this; they only followed conjecture. And conjecture is no substitute for the truth. So disregard he who turns away from Our reminder, and only desires this worldly life.
3936 Is God not enough for His servant? And they frighten you with others beside Him. And whomever God sends astray, then for him there will be no guide. And whomever God guides, then there will be none that can mislead him. Is God not Noble, with Vengeance?
635 We know that you are saddened by what they say; they are not rejecting you, but it is God's revelations which the wicked disregard.
3954 Lest a soul will Say "How sorry I am for disregarding God's path; and I was certainly one of those who mocked."
2211 This worldly life has been made pleasing to the disbelievers, and they mock those who believe. And those who are righteous will be above them on the Day of Resurrection;
67 They have denied the truth when it came to them. The news will ultimately come to them of what they were mocking.
3010 Then the end of those who did evil was evil, that is because they denied God's signs, and they used to mock them.
4533 And the evils of their works will become evident to them, and the very thing they ridiculed will be their doom.
4912 O you who believe, let not a people ridicule other people, for they may be better than they. Nor shall any women ridicule other women, for they may be better than they. Nor shall you mock one another, or call each other names. Evil indeed is the reversion to wickedness after attaining faith. And anyone who does not repent, then these are the transgressors.
-
Peace tanverrmd,
I think you missed the point of my post. My intention was not to give evidences of what I was saying. Riz wanted another plausible explanation about what could happened then, back on the time of the Prophet. I gave him a logic story (conjectures as I remarked) and as you I want somebody to prove if this could have happened in reality.
About the northern and southern dialects, in islamic awareness there are some manuscripts from the Pre-Islamic era. You will see that all the classical arabic manuscripts have been found in the north of saudi arabia with greek or syriac or nabatean. The script from the south is different. And these remains have been found as far as Madain Saleh (before the Prophet) and Medina (during the Prophet's time). 50 years later appears an inscription of Muawiya in Taif. It's quite suspicious that no arabic inscriptions from Yahiliya have been found there.
Anyway...I have no time now to do research and try to find evidences to all this. I will try later. Keep looking 4 the truth my brother )
See ya.
nur
-
mquran and tanveer had nothing in the end except to throw quranic verses at you, to frighten into accepting their version of events
That is a cowards way out for them!!!
(and I think they are fairly competent at it!)5329 While they had no knowledge about this; they only followed conjecture. And conjecture is no substitute for the truth. So disregard he who turns away from Our reminder, and only desires this worldly life.
Tanveer, the conjecture for you is that you believe Quran appeared in a vacuum without any history. As for wordly life - I never did desire the worldly life. I have been spiritual from an young age. I dont need to be reminded.
3936 Is God not enough for His servant? And they frighten you with others beside Him. And whomever God sends astray, then for him there will be no guide. And whomever God guides, then there will be none that can mislead him. Is God not Noble, with Vengeance?
God is not in the Question here. Rather it is the history associated with the Quran and Origins of Islam.
635 We know that you are saddened by what they say; they are not rejecting you, but it is God's revelations which the wicked disregard.
Are you saddened too Tanveer by what I say?
But Riz and I are asking serious questions.3954 Lest a soul will Say "How sorry I am for disregarding God's path; and I was certainly one of those who mocked."
Is that how you feel that you being mocked?
2211 This worldly life has been made pleasing to the disbelievers, and they mock those who believe. And those who are righteous will be above them on the Day of Resurrection;
I am not mocking those who believe rather I question those who take their scripture to be the only truth. And my life is certainly not pleasing at all. I like to believe that I am righteous, though I am not perfect. I have my faults but I don't knowingly hurt anyone, I dont steal, I dont murder. I do my best to help the the people that are in need and those who ask my assistance etc.
67 They have denied the truth when it came to them. The news will ultimately come to them of what they were mocking.
The Truth of God is the Whole Universe. The Truth of God is within us. We only need to look for it. Scripture can never the whole truth nor can anyone prove it is the whole truth.
[
3010 Then the end of those who did evil was evil, that is because they denied God's signs, and they used to mock them.I like to believe that I have not involved myself knowingly in any Evil. I accept Whole Universe as God's sign. But I can't rely on a scripture that came through a human being as the whole truth.
4533 And the evils of their works will become evident to them, and the very thing they ridiculed will be their doom.
Is asking question about Quran and History of Islam evil?
4912 O you who believe, let not a people ridicule other people, for they may be better than they. Nor shall any women ridicule other women, for they may be better than they. Nor shall you mock one another, or call each other names. Evil indeed is the reversion to wickedness after attaining faith. And anyone who does not repent, then these are the transgressors.
What do you want me to make of all this above then? Repent?
Repent of what Tanveer? Asking questions?Regards,
-
Riz wanted another plausible explanation about what could happened then, back on the time of the Prophet. I gave him a logic story (conjectures as I remarked)...
Chapter 10
35. Say ?Are there any of those whom you set up as partners who can guide to the truth?? Say ?God guides to the truth. Is He who guides to the truth more worthy of being followed, or the one who does not guide except after he is guided? What is wrong with you, how do you judge??
36. Most of them only follow conjecture. While conjecture does not avail against the truth in anything. God is aware of what they do.
37. This Quran could not have been produced without God, but it is to authenticate what is already present, and to give detail to the Scripture in which there is no doubt, from the Lord of the worlds.
38. Or do they say he invented it? Say ?Then bring a chapter like it, and call upon whoever you can besides God if you are truthful!? -
- Or do they say he invented it? Say ?Then bring a chapter like it, and call upon whoever you can besides God if you are truthful!?
Who will be the judge of that?
It is like asking me to produce one of Mozart Symphonies?
Regards,
-
Peace be with you Lote Tree,
I wasn't addressing the reply to you . I learnt not to quote quran for you some time back.
Hello Zenje,
I was not asking you personally. It was a general question to all...
I normally refer to people that I ask question to you...
Regards,
-
Salaam to all
Hey LoteTree,
I haven't given up, its just that this thread was getting no where. People were just starting to get frustrated with each other and in the end I just had verses and articles presented to me which I have seen countless times. While I believe in the supreme authority of the Quran, it doesn't completly answer all questions I have regarding what happened after Muhammad and the significance of the Kaba. It seems to be an issue of interpretation both on the Sunnis part and on "our" part. I think it is important to look back into history to give us a better picture of what happened. History always seems to be a victim to the religous right as it is always ignored and viewed as insignificant.
Either way, I will continue my search and probably some new threads or posts in the Hajj section of the forum later.
Peace.
3534 And what We inspired to you from the Scripture, it is the truth, authenticating what is present. God is Expert of His servants, Seer.
3533 Then We inherited the Scripture to those whom We selected from Our servants. Subsequently, some of them wronged their souls, and others upheld it partly, while others were eager to work righteousness in accordance with God's will; this is the greatest triumph.Please correct if I am wrong here, but I do believe that the above verse is in reference to Muhammad's followers (his family, friends, companions) and hence the Quran confirms that there was divisions amongst them regarding the Scripture.
-
Peace Nur,
Riz wanted another plausible explanation about what could happened then, back on the time of the Prophet. I gave him a logic story (conjectures as I remarked)
Plausible explanations are never based on conjectures. The true historical facts are available to us through the historical evidences from Qur'aan and archeological evidences, and all the possible explanations should be based on the actual facts and the true historical evidences and not on conjectures and fabricated or corrupted historical sources. Logic should be utilized with the correct information and not with conjectures.
As far as whether Qur'aanic Arabic and the written Arabic in Qur'aanic times was dotted or not, following is a quote from brother Ayman's article in a separate thread, which gives actual archeological evidence in the form of pictures of manuscripts
It is a myth that early copies of the great reading didn't have any dotting. While it is true that some of the early copies of the great reading were not fully dotted, there are many early copies that are fully dotted. Here is a very early example that even predates the Tashkent copy
http//faculty.washington.edu/wheelerb/quran/maili.html
Moreover, the great reading refers to itself as "kitab marqum". According to Classical Arabic dictionaries, marqum means dotted.
The dotting started very early and Arabs were dotting even mundane documents such as business letters. For example, see the following manuscript
http//www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Papyri/PERF558.html
It is analyzed by Alan Jones, "The Dotting Of A Script And The Dating Of An Era The Strange Neglect Of PERF 558", in Islamic Culture, 1998, Volume LXXII, No. 4, pp. 95-103.
http//www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Papyri/jones.html
An exchange between brothers Ayman and Shuaib in the same thread as the one quoted from above may be of interest as it is relevant to the topic of the current thread
shuaib wrote
Also, about Makkah and the Kaaba. You didn't provide any idea of when they would have been built?ayman wrote
They were built before the great reading but Makka was named something else and Kaaba was named Dhu-Alshaara. They were not named Makkah and Kaaba as they are today.shuaib wrote
Clearly if it was "unIslamic" and shirk, the Prophet would not have allowed it and neither would the sahaba...ayman wrote
No one, including the prophet can go inside people's hearts and stop "shirk". Idolizing Jesus is equally shirk and yet the prophet didn't stop it as evident from the continuity of Christians in Arab land. Why should other shirk be any different?As for the "sahaba", they are refered to as a collective in the great reading when they are told not to think that the prophet was crazy (see 3436). Thus, the "sahaba" are not exactly the "saints" that they are made out to be.
shuaib wrote
so when was it constructed and where's the record of that??ayman wrote
The Kaaba was last constructed in 1996. Archeological evidence shows that black stones have been idolized for 29,000 years.The practice of idolizing stones, especially black stones, predates Arab paganism. Black stones have been regarded as sacred in China, India, Indonesia and Tibet for at least 2500 years. The black stone continues to be sacred to Tibetan monks and lamas, who call it "the Stone of Shambala". Hindu mythology speaks of the black stone as a magical gem formed from the moon's rays.
Attributing talismanic energy to black stones is a very ancient pagan custom. For example, a Cro-Magnon site dated at 29,000 years of age contained a black stone amulet. A black stone known as "The Phrygian Stone" was adored for over five centuries in the Roman period. Many of the American Indian tribes have conducted pilgrimages to adore black stones and carried small black stones in their medicine pouches. The ancient Semites revered black stones. They are said to have chosen a black stone to represent a triple-aspected mother goddess to whom they made human sacrifices.
shuaib wrote
Clearly there is no suggestion whatsoever, either by historical record or archeological that Makkah is a NEW city, so why do you jump to that conclusion so readily? And what were Ptolemy/Diodorus etc etc referring to.. if "Macoraba" is not makkah, then what? Dearth of record can be explained by MANY things other than lack of existence.ayman wrote
I didn't say that it was new. All I said is that it was renamed to Makkah to match the common noun in 4824.The thread which sheds a lot of light on the origin of Arabic language and gives archeological evidence of Arabic scripts and where they were found, in addition to the above excerpts can be found at the following link
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3115
Archeological arabic scripts have been found from the Negev region (southern Israel), Umm Al-Rasas (Jordan), Damascus etc. from the time of Muhammad showing that Arabic language was spoken in those areas. Arabic language had two major dialects at that time, the southern dialect e.g. Sabaic, and the northern dialect e.g. Safaitic. The Qur'aanic Arabic is predominantly the northern dialect, and not the southern, however it was always dotted, and southern arabs had no problem understanding or reading it.
-
Is that how you feel that you being mocked?
I am not mocking those who believe.............
..........I don't knowingly hurt anyone.........
I like to believe that I have not involved myself knowingly in any Evil.
Facts speak for themselves
mquran and tanveer had nothing in the end except to throw quranic verses at you, to frighten into accepting their version of events
That is a cowards way out for them!!!
(and I think they are fairly competent at it!)I can't rely on a scripture that came through a human being as the whole truth.
Scripture can never the whole truth
3010 Then the end of those who did evil was evil, that is because they denied God's signs, and they used to mock them.
4533 And the evils of their works will become evident to them, and the very thing they ridiculed will be their doom.
4064 Thus, those who used to deny God's Revelations were deviated.
651 And those who deny Our revelations, the retribution will inflict them for their vileness.What do you want me to make of all this above then? Repent?
Repent of what Tanveer?4912 O you who believe, let not a people ridicule other people, for they may be better than they. Nor shall any women ridicule other women, for they may be better than they. Nor shall you mock one another, or call each other names. Evil indeed is the reversion to wickedness after attaining faith. And anyone who does not repent, then these are the transgressors.
You have been disregarded as per The God's command
5329 While they had no knowledge about this; they only followed conjecture. And conjecture is no substitute for the truth. So disregard he who turns away from Our reminder, and only desires this worldly life.
-
Peace all,
Following is link to the thread which contains research about where the ruins of the communities destroyed by The God are, and proof that Muhammad and the pagan Arabs around him in the beginning originally lived in and were from Northern Arabia from around the areas of the ruins of the destroyed communities
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1327