The problem with Islam
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mquran and tanveer had nothing in the end except to throw quranic verses at you, to frighten into accepting their version of events
That is a cowards way out for them!!!
(and I think they are fairly competent at it!)5329 While they had no knowledge about this; they only followed conjecture. And conjecture is no substitute for the truth. So disregard he who turns away from Our reminder, and only desires this worldly life.
3936 Is God not enough for His servant? And they frighten you with others beside Him. And whomever God sends astray, then for him there will be no guide. And whomever God guides, then there will be none that can mislead him. Is God not Noble, with Vengeance?
635 We know that you are saddened by what they say; they are not rejecting you, but it is God's revelations which the wicked disregard.
3954 Lest a soul will Say "How sorry I am for disregarding God's path; and I was certainly one of those who mocked."
2211 This worldly life has been made pleasing to the disbelievers, and they mock those who believe. And those who are righteous will be above them on the Day of Resurrection;
67 They have denied the truth when it came to them. The news will ultimately come to them of what they were mocking.
3010 Then the end of those who did evil was evil, that is because they denied God's signs, and they used to mock them.
4533 And the evils of their works will become evident to them, and the very thing they ridiculed will be their doom.
4912 O you who believe, let not a people ridicule other people, for they may be better than they. Nor shall any women ridicule other women, for they may be better than they. Nor shall you mock one another, or call each other names. Evil indeed is the reversion to wickedness after attaining faith. And anyone who does not repent, then these are the transgressors.
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Peace tanverrmd,
I think you missed the point of my post. My intention was not to give evidences of what I was saying. Riz wanted another plausible explanation about what could happened then, back on the time of the Prophet. I gave him a logic story (conjectures as I remarked) and as you I want somebody to prove if this could have happened in reality.
About the northern and southern dialects, in islamic awareness there are some manuscripts from the Pre-Islamic era. You will see that all the classical arabic manuscripts have been found in the north of saudi arabia with greek or syriac or nabatean. The script from the south is different. And these remains have been found as far as Madain Saleh (before the Prophet) and Medina (during the Prophet's time). 50 years later appears an inscription of Muawiya in Taif. It's quite suspicious that no arabic inscriptions from Yahiliya have been found there.
Anyway...I have no time now to do research and try to find evidences to all this. I will try later. Keep looking 4 the truth my brother )
See ya.
nur
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mquran and tanveer had nothing in the end except to throw quranic verses at you, to frighten into accepting their version of events
That is a cowards way out for them!!!
(and I think they are fairly competent at it!)5329 While they had no knowledge about this; they only followed conjecture. And conjecture is no substitute for the truth. So disregard he who turns away from Our reminder, and only desires this worldly life.
Tanveer, the conjecture for you is that you believe Quran appeared in a vacuum without any history. As for wordly life - I never did desire the worldly life. I have been spiritual from an young age. I dont need to be reminded.
3936 Is God not enough for His servant? And they frighten you with others beside Him. And whomever God sends astray, then for him there will be no guide. And whomever God guides, then there will be none that can mislead him. Is God not Noble, with Vengeance?
God is not in the Question here. Rather it is the history associated with the Quran and Origins of Islam.
635 We know that you are saddened by what they say; they are not rejecting you, but it is God's revelations which the wicked disregard.
Are you saddened too Tanveer by what I say?
But Riz and I are asking serious questions.3954 Lest a soul will Say "How sorry I am for disregarding God's path; and I was certainly one of those who mocked."
Is that how you feel that you being mocked?
2211 This worldly life has been made pleasing to the disbelievers, and they mock those who believe. And those who are righteous will be above them on the Day of Resurrection;
I am not mocking those who believe rather I question those who take their scripture to be the only truth. And my life is certainly not pleasing at all. I like to believe that I am righteous, though I am not perfect. I have my faults but I don't knowingly hurt anyone, I dont steal, I dont murder. I do my best to help the the people that are in need and those who ask my assistance etc.
67 They have denied the truth when it came to them. The news will ultimately come to them of what they were mocking.
The Truth of God is the Whole Universe. The Truth of God is within us. We only need to look for it. Scripture can never the whole truth nor can anyone prove it is the whole truth.
[
3010 Then the end of those who did evil was evil, that is because they denied God's signs, and they used to mock them.I like to believe that I have not involved myself knowingly in any Evil. I accept Whole Universe as God's sign. But I can't rely on a scripture that came through a human being as the whole truth.
4533 And the evils of their works will become evident to them, and the very thing they ridiculed will be their doom.
Is asking question about Quran and History of Islam evil?
4912 O you who believe, let not a people ridicule other people, for they may be better than they. Nor shall any women ridicule other women, for they may be better than they. Nor shall you mock one another, or call each other names. Evil indeed is the reversion to wickedness after attaining faith. And anyone who does not repent, then these are the transgressors.
What do you want me to make of all this above then? Repent?
Repent of what Tanveer? Asking questions?Regards,
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Riz wanted another plausible explanation about what could happened then, back on the time of the Prophet. I gave him a logic story (conjectures as I remarked)...
Chapter 10
35. Say ?Are there any of those whom you set up as partners who can guide to the truth?? Say ?God guides to the truth. Is He who guides to the truth more worthy of being followed, or the one who does not guide except after he is guided? What is wrong with you, how do you judge??
36. Most of them only follow conjecture. While conjecture does not avail against the truth in anything. God is aware of what they do.
37. This Quran could not have been produced without God, but it is to authenticate what is already present, and to give detail to the Scripture in which there is no doubt, from the Lord of the worlds.
38. Or do they say he invented it? Say ?Then bring a chapter like it, and call upon whoever you can besides God if you are truthful!? -
- Or do they say he invented it? Say ?Then bring a chapter like it, and call upon whoever you can besides God if you are truthful!?
Who will be the judge of that?
It is like asking me to produce one of Mozart Symphonies?
Regards,
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Peace be with you Lote Tree,
I wasn't addressing the reply to you . I learnt not to quote quran for you some time back.
Hello Zenje,
I was not asking you personally. It was a general question to all...
I normally refer to people that I ask question to you...
Regards,
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Salaam to all
Hey LoteTree,
I haven't given up, its just that this thread was getting no where. People were just starting to get frustrated with each other and in the end I just had verses and articles presented to me which I have seen countless times. While I believe in the supreme authority of the Quran, it doesn't completly answer all questions I have regarding what happened after Muhammad and the significance of the Kaba. It seems to be an issue of interpretation both on the Sunnis part and on "our" part. I think it is important to look back into history to give us a better picture of what happened. History always seems to be a victim to the religous right as it is always ignored and viewed as insignificant.
Either way, I will continue my search and probably some new threads or posts in the Hajj section of the forum later.
Peace.
3534 And what We inspired to you from the Scripture, it is the truth, authenticating what is present. God is Expert of His servants, Seer.
3533 Then We inherited the Scripture to those whom We selected from Our servants. Subsequently, some of them wronged their souls, and others upheld it partly, while others were eager to work righteousness in accordance with God's will; this is the greatest triumph.Please correct if I am wrong here, but I do believe that the above verse is in reference to Muhammad's followers (his family, friends, companions) and hence the Quran confirms that there was divisions amongst them regarding the Scripture.
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Peace Nur,
Riz wanted another plausible explanation about what could happened then, back on the time of the Prophet. I gave him a logic story (conjectures as I remarked)
Plausible explanations are never based on conjectures. The true historical facts are available to us through the historical evidences from Qur'aan and archeological evidences, and all the possible explanations should be based on the actual facts and the true historical evidences and not on conjectures and fabricated or corrupted historical sources. Logic should be utilized with the correct information and not with conjectures.
As far as whether Qur'aanic Arabic and the written Arabic in Qur'aanic times was dotted or not, following is a quote from brother Ayman's article in a separate thread, which gives actual archeological evidence in the form of pictures of manuscripts
It is a myth that early copies of the great reading didn't have any dotting. While it is true that some of the early copies of the great reading were not fully dotted, there are many early copies that are fully dotted. Here is a very early example that even predates the Tashkent copy
http//faculty.washington.edu/wheelerb/quran/maili.html
Moreover, the great reading refers to itself as "kitab marqum". According to Classical Arabic dictionaries, marqum means dotted.
The dotting started very early and Arabs were dotting even mundane documents such as business letters. For example, see the following manuscript
http//www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Papyri/PERF558.html
It is analyzed by Alan Jones, "The Dotting Of A Script And The Dating Of An Era The Strange Neglect Of PERF 558", in Islamic Culture, 1998, Volume LXXII, No. 4, pp. 95-103.
http//www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Papyri/jones.html
An exchange between brothers Ayman and Shuaib in the same thread as the one quoted from above may be of interest as it is relevant to the topic of the current thread
shuaib wrote
Also, about Makkah and the Kaaba. You didn't provide any idea of when they would have been built?ayman wrote
They were built before the great reading but Makka was named something else and Kaaba was named Dhu-Alshaara. They were not named Makkah and Kaaba as they are today.shuaib wrote
Clearly if it was "unIslamic" and shirk, the Prophet would not have allowed it and neither would the sahaba...ayman wrote
No one, including the prophet can go inside people's hearts and stop "shirk". Idolizing Jesus is equally shirk and yet the prophet didn't stop it as evident from the continuity of Christians in Arab land. Why should other shirk be any different?As for the "sahaba", they are refered to as a collective in the great reading when they are told not to think that the prophet was crazy (see 3436). Thus, the "sahaba" are not exactly the "saints" that they are made out to be.
shuaib wrote
so when was it constructed and where's the record of that??ayman wrote
The Kaaba was last constructed in 1996. Archeological evidence shows that black stones have been idolized for 29,000 years.The practice of idolizing stones, especially black stones, predates Arab paganism. Black stones have been regarded as sacred in China, India, Indonesia and Tibet for at least 2500 years. The black stone continues to be sacred to Tibetan monks and lamas, who call it "the Stone of Shambala". Hindu mythology speaks of the black stone as a magical gem formed from the moon's rays.
Attributing talismanic energy to black stones is a very ancient pagan custom. For example, a Cro-Magnon site dated at 29,000 years of age contained a black stone amulet. A black stone known as "The Phrygian Stone" was adored for over five centuries in the Roman period. Many of the American Indian tribes have conducted pilgrimages to adore black stones and carried small black stones in their medicine pouches. The ancient Semites revered black stones. They are said to have chosen a black stone to represent a triple-aspected mother goddess to whom they made human sacrifices.
shuaib wrote
Clearly there is no suggestion whatsoever, either by historical record or archeological that Makkah is a NEW city, so why do you jump to that conclusion so readily? And what were Ptolemy/Diodorus etc etc referring to.. if "Macoraba" is not makkah, then what? Dearth of record can be explained by MANY things other than lack of existence.ayman wrote
I didn't say that it was new. All I said is that it was renamed to Makkah to match the common noun in 4824.The thread which sheds a lot of light on the origin of Arabic language and gives archeological evidence of Arabic scripts and where they were found, in addition to the above excerpts can be found at the following link
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3115
Archeological arabic scripts have been found from the Negev region (southern Israel), Umm Al-Rasas (Jordan), Damascus etc. from the time of Muhammad showing that Arabic language was spoken in those areas. Arabic language had two major dialects at that time, the southern dialect e.g. Sabaic, and the northern dialect e.g. Safaitic. The Qur'aanic Arabic is predominantly the northern dialect, and not the southern, however it was always dotted, and southern arabs had no problem understanding or reading it.
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Is that how you feel that you being mocked?
I am not mocking those who believe.............
..........I don't knowingly hurt anyone.........
I like to believe that I have not involved myself knowingly in any Evil.
Facts speak for themselves
mquran and tanveer had nothing in the end except to throw quranic verses at you, to frighten into accepting their version of events
That is a cowards way out for them!!!
(and I think they are fairly competent at it!)I can't rely on a scripture that came through a human being as the whole truth.
Scripture can never the whole truth
3010 Then the end of those who did evil was evil, that is because they denied God's signs, and they used to mock them.
4533 And the evils of their works will become evident to them, and the very thing they ridiculed will be their doom.
4064 Thus, those who used to deny God's Revelations were deviated.
651 And those who deny Our revelations, the retribution will inflict them for their vileness.What do you want me to make of all this above then? Repent?
Repent of what Tanveer?4912 O you who believe, let not a people ridicule other people, for they may be better than they. Nor shall any women ridicule other women, for they may be better than they. Nor shall you mock one another, or call each other names. Evil indeed is the reversion to wickedness after attaining faith. And anyone who does not repent, then these are the transgressors.
You have been disregarded as per The God's command
5329 While they had no knowledge about this; they only followed conjecture. And conjecture is no substitute for the truth. So disregard he who turns away from Our reminder, and only desires this worldly life.
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Peace all,
Following is link to the thread which contains research about where the ruins of the communities destroyed by The God are, and proof that Muhammad and the pagan Arabs around him in the beginning originally lived in and were from Northern Arabia from around the areas of the ruins of the destroyed communities
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1327
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Ah thank you Tanveer. You finally are discussing what I was trying to discuss
Incognito, that verse is talking about the former people such as the Jews. To say, by using that verse, that Muhammads followers did the same is speculation. It is possible and I am not ruling it out, but I want to keep all possibilities open.
Back to the issue of Mecca and the Kabah. Looking at it from the Quran, I don't think it matters whether or not Muhammad was from Mecca. First lets establish what the Quran says about Abraham, Meccas relation to Abraham, and Muhammads relation to Abraham, and Muhammad location after the migration.
-Abraham was in Becca, not Mecca.
-Mecca was never Becca.
-Muhammad is not related to Abraham. Is there any solid Quranic evidence I am missing about this last point?
-After the migration, Muhammad was in Yathrib.The Quran says "The foolish from amongst the people will say ?What has turned them away from the focal point that they were on?? "
From this we can see that originally Muhammad had some focal point other than the one he had at the point that verse was revealed. As the later verses reveal, Muhammad no longer had a focal point and was therefore turning his face up to the sky (during his prayers?).
I suspect that the reason Muhammad no longer had a focal point was because the original focal point was where he fled from. Somewhere up north perhaps. So after having fled and no longer having a focal point, God assigns a new focal point, Masjidal Haram. Where was this place? I suspect it was in Mecca. Now just bear with me here and I will explain my reasons.I think we can all agree that stone structures such as a Shrine are not something to be venerated and there is nothing particularly holy about them. Whether they are built by Abraham, Muhammad, or anyone else.
So now lets look what a Masjidal Haram is.
"The idea that certain spaces - whether because of their great height, outstanding beauty, lush vegetation or the like - are occupied by divinities is very ancient, and such spaces were legion in Arabia. The terms for them had usually to do with protection and prohibition(hima, haram, mahram), for within them all living things were considered inviolable and all use of violence was forbidden. In much of Arabia sanctuaries would be open-air, the natural features of the spot being sufficient to distinguish it. This might be a spring with its margin or rich vegetation, a patch of forest haunted by lions, a shady cleft in the mountainside or a solitary eminence rising from the desert. The borders of the holy ground would usually be drawn somewhat widely, skirting the sacred center on all sides, the whole roughly marked off by pillars or cairs. In cities and where money was available, the sacred place might be bounded by walls and filled with ornate structures, then constituting what we would call a temple." (Hoyland 156-157). Such sanctuaries are documented by Diodorus, Antoninus Placentinus and others.So perhaps the new focal point which God assigned, this particular Majidal Haram, was the one in Mecca. Afterall, the shrine there was dedicated to Allah. This is verified by the Quran when it says to the Quraysh "serve the Lord of this shrine." Once again, the Shrine wasn't built by Abraham on any special person, but it was a Shrine to God(Allah) and God had made this shrine a Shrine for the people (597).
Once this Shrine was set, the pilgrimage was owed to it as the Quran records. (397) This verse, however, is referring to the Shrine built by Abraham which still existed in Becca. The Quran says that God is owed the pilgrimage to this shrine whoever can make a path to it. I think what this implies is whoever can actually find it. Otherwise, we should make the pilgrimage to the Shrine set for us by God. This as mentioned earlier in verse 597 is the Kaba.
So once this Shrine is set and the pilgrimage is set, Muhammad and his followers would have tried making a pilgrimage there. The pagan Meccans didn't want these Monothiests in making a pilgrimage to their town so at some point they prevented them from doing it. This is a part of the traditional story and is also related in the Quran "And why should God not punish them when they are turning others away from the restricted Temple, and they were never its protectors! Its protectors are the righteous; but most of them do not know. " 834
So what happens now? Well the rest of the Surah deals with fighting these unbelievers. It gives the believers advice and uplifting words for the battle. So eventually Muhammad and the believers would have gone and taken Mecca and ever since the followers performed the pilgrimage there.
What did this pilgrimage consist of? I don't know. Does the Quran describe what the pilgrimage should consist of? It describes the call to the pilgrimage Abraham made which consisted of people coming togethor to rejoice the blessings of God and performing "the rites." What were these rites? I don't know. Animal sacrifice maybe.
Would Muhammad have to perform the Pilgrimage the same way Abraham did? Not necessarily. God says for every nation he has made certain rites (2267). The rites Muhammad performed might have just been what he knew of the pilgrimage performed by the Arabs which from what I understand was a sort of a festival, like Abrahams, anyways.
What can we see as being added onto this pilgrimage by later generations?
-Associating it with Abraham
-The footprint of Abraham
-Bowing down to the KabaAbout the Black meteor, I think this might have been left there by Muhammad because in a way, that meteor is sign of the wonders of God. It is a rock from outerspace, so in that way it is another sign for the people, but not in anyway to be venerated as it is now. But this can not be backed up by the Quran so I don't know.
Seeing things like this, the Islamic history or the Kaba and Mecca make a lot more sense. In this situation, we don't have to assume that all of Muhammads family, companions and every Muslim who knew him betrayed him and God.
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Is that how you feel that you being mocked?
Facts speak for themselves
mquran and tanveer had nothing in the end except to throw quranic verses at you, to frighten into accepting their version of events
That is a cowards way out for them!!!
(and I think they are fairly competent at it!)You did not answer my question - do you feel being mocked ?
How does facts speak for themselves?
Throwing verses - thats what you have been doing, giving us verses instead of answering Riz's question.3010 Then the end of those who did evil was evil, that is because they denied God's signs, and they used to mock them.
4533 And the evils of their works will become evident to them, and the very thing they ridiculed will be their doom.
4064 Thus, those who used to deny God's Revelations were deviated.
651 And those who deny Our revelations, the retribution will inflict them for their vileness.God's Sign is the Whole Universe Tanveer! Why do you make Idol out of Quran?
4912 O you who believe, let not a people ridicule other people, for they may be better than they. Nor shall any women ridicule other women, for they may be better than they. Nor shall you mock one another, or call each other names. Evil indeed is the reversion to wickedness after attaining faith. And anyone who does not repent, then these are the transgressors.
You have been disregarded as per The God's command
But if you understood God fully, if you looked beyond scripture Tanveer then you would have known that God does not do this. He can't disregard you like humans do because everything is His creation -)
5329 While they had no knowledge about this; they only followed conjecture. And conjecture is no substitute for the truth. So disregard he who turns away from Our reminder, and only desires this worldly life.
There are many millions of people who does not desire the worldly life Tanveer? Many millions of Buddhist, Monks and even ordinary people too -)
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A question for Riz, I say Sunnah is invented after Muhammads death - What say you on this matter?
Regards,
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I have had that stance for the past two years, but now when I think more about it, I think I have been a bit extreme on the matter. As I mentioned earlier, assuming and thinking that every Muslim including Muhammads best friends, disciples, and family betrayed him is very very hard to imagine. That is why I am trying to find out what really happened during Muhammads time and soon after his death and that is what I have been trying to discuss for much of this thread.
Much of the Sunnah we have today has existed since the very early days of Islam. Even non-muslims record this. As I stated earlier, there are non-muslim accounts from about 28 years after Muhammad which describe much of the sunnah being practiced today. That is why I think Mecca and the Kaba did have a significance in the life of Muhammad. There are parts of the sunnah, such as bowing to the Kaba and much of the Hajj ritual which I have severe doubts about, but besides that there is not much which I contend with. Five prayers are questionable as well, but are not completly out of the question. I can see how a person could get 5 prayers out of the Quran. As for the method of prayer, this is something I have doubts about as well. Standing up, reciting the Quran seem fine, but bowing down to the Kaba, saying Amen, looking left&right at the end don't have any basis in the Quran. A prophet bowing down to a stone structure seems highly unlikley.
So to sum it all up, I think parts of the Sunnah are genuine. Throwing it all away would be implying that all Muslims betrayed Muhammad following his death.
What do you think of that?
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Salam all,
I know how Riz is feeling, exactly same things popped in my head a while back. I dont think that throwing verses is a good idea when you are dumbfounded.
Can anybody here tell for sure that he is guided ? No. We only can explore together to get some clues. Is it not too stubborn to say that ALL HISTORY IS CONJECTURE.. WE ONLY NEED QURAN ! Quran is a word of Truth, as LoteTree says, but not the ONLY TRUTH.
Personally, I find it hard to digest that GOD requires us to bow down 5 times a day to a particular direction. This could have been formulated later on .. I m sure many of you might have heard about zoroastrian mode of prayer, which is similar to the one in Islam.
I once read in Dr.Shabbir's forum that Namaz was canonised by Khaizran (Zoroastrian influence). Khaizran, mother of the then Ruler , distributed silver and gold to popularize the Zoroastrian Namaz into Islam. In the same post it was mentioned Hanbal was flogged because he opposed to this innovation in Islam. Not sure about where he got these details.
Regards,
Truth.Seeker -
Peace Riz, all,
Thank you for you detailed analysis.
The Quran says "The foolish from amongst the people will say ?What has turned them away from the focal point that they were on??
Notice that the foolish people describe what they can see. They said "what has turned them away from the focal point A that they were on". They did not say "what turned them from the focal point A to focal point B". We can understand from this that focal point A is physical because people can see them turning away from it. Please see a few verses before to 2137 to see that "wala/turning away" means "rejecting". So what this is talking about is rejection of focal point A.
From this we can see that originally Muhammad had some focal point other than the one he had at the point that verse was revealed. As the later verses reveal, Muhammad no longer had a focal point and was therefore turning his face up to the sky (during his prayers?).
The "turning of the face in the sky" is true for turning to any physical focal point since the earth is turning and you are actually looking into the horizon (the sky).
I suspect that the reason Muhammad no longer had a focal point was because the original focal point was where he fled from. Somewhere up north perhaps. So after having fled and no longer having a focal point, God assigns a new focal point, Masjidal Haram. Where was this place?
The prophet no longer had a physical focal point. He now had a non-physical focal point. We are clearly told that "al-masjid al-haram" IS "the truth from our Lord". So the command is to turn our direction to the truth from our Lord, wherever we are.
I suspect it was in Mecca. Now just bear with me here and I will explain my reasons.
There is absolutely no evidence of a pre-quranic town called Mecca. The only time the word "mecca" is mentioned in the great reading is in 4824 as a common noun. If you look in the Lexicons, it means "destruction". Here is Yusuf Ali's translation but instead of leaving "mecca" untranslated, I translated it as a common noun using the meaning of Lexicons and the context of war
048.024
YUSUFALI And it is He Who has restrained their hands from you and your hands from them in the midst of destruction, after that He gave you the victory over them. And Allah sees well all that ye do.As you see, the meaning fits perfectly.
I think we can all agree that stone structures such as a Shrine are not something to be venerated and there is nothing particularly holy about them. Whether they are built by Abraham, Muhammad, or anyone else.
I totally agree.
So now lets look what a Masjidal Haram is.
"The idea that certain spaces - whether because of their great height, outstanding beauty, lush vegetation or the like - are occupied by divinities is very ancient, and such spaces were legion in Arabia. The terms for them had usually to do with protection and prohibition(hima, haram, mahram), for within them all living things were considered inviolable and all use of violence was forbidden. In much of Arabia sanctuaries would be open-air, the natural features of the spot being sufficient to distinguish it. This might be a spring with its margin or rich vegetation, a patch of forest haunted by lions, a shady cleft in the mountainside or a solitary eminence rising from the desert. The borders of the holy ground would usually be drawn somewhat widely, skirting the sacred center on all sides, the whole roughly marked off by pillars or cairs. In cities and where money was available, the sacred place might be bounded by walls and filled with ornate structures, then constituting what we would call a temple." (Hoyland 156-157). Such sanctuaries are documented by Diodorus, Antoninus Placentinus and others.Yes all man-made religions have physical focal points. The pre-quranic pagans faced the sun. Likewise, pagan Trinitarians faced the sun. The Jews faced the Temple in Jerusalem.
So perhaps the new focal point which God assigned, this particular Majidal Haram, was the one in Mecca.
As I said, there was no town named Mecca and "al-masjid al-haram" is the "truth from our Lord". The truth is non-physical and is not restricted to a certain place. This is why, unlike a physical place, we can face it WHEREVER we are. It is an indisputable fact that one CANNOT face a physical place WHEREVER he or she is.
Afterall, the shrine there was dedicated to Allah.
There is no evidence that the shrine in Mecca was "dedicated to Allah". In fact, all the evidence points to the shrine in Mecca being dedicated to the Nabataean pagan idol Dhu Al-Shaara, which according to the best evidence available was the sun. The focal point of the shrine of Kaaba is the black stone, which is located in the southeast corner precisely facing the winter sunrise. From archeological evidence, we know that the Nabataean represented their idols with stone cubes exactly like the one in present day Mecca. They celebrated the birth of Dhu Al-Shaara on the winter solstice (the shortest day of the year when the sun is reborn). Those celebrations culminated with the pagans spinning SEVEN times around the inner sanctuary of the Temple.
This is verified by the Quran when it says to the Quraysh "serve the Lord of this shrine." Once again, the Shrine wasn't built by Abraham on any special person, but it was a Shrine to God(Allah) and God had made this shrine a Shrine for the people (597).
The word "bayt" simply means "house" and it is not the same thing as "masjid". We are told that the purpose of the "house" is for people to gather safely. I don't think that you can gather many people safely inside the room-sized black stone cube in Mecca. In fact, as in pagan times, the Kaaba is the one place that pilgrims NEVER enter.
Once this Shrine was set, the pilgrimage was owed to it as the Quran records. (397) This verse, however, is referring to the Shrine built by Abraham which still existed in Becca. The Quran says that God is owed the pilgrimage to this shrine whoever can make a path to it. I think what this implies is whoever can actually find it. Otherwise, we should make the pilgrimage to the Shrine set for us by God. This as mentioned earlier in verse 597 is the Kaba.
The common noun "kaaba"/heel simple means "base" (like the heel is the base of the foot and the shoe). So 597 is simply telling us that "al-bayt al-7aram" is the base. This is a confirmation of 2125 where we are told that its purpose is to be a kind of base where people can gather safely. As for "7ajj", it means "debate". Naturally, when people gather they meet one another and debate and exchange ideas.
So once this Shrine is set and the pilgrimage is set, Muhammad and his followers would have tried making a pilgrimage there. The pagan Meccans didn't want these Monothiests in making a pilgrimage to their town so at some point they prevented them from doing it. This is a part of the traditional story and is also related in the Quran "And why should God not punish them when they are turning others away from the restricted Temple, and they were never its protectors! Its protectors are the righteous; but most of them do not know. " 834
The word "masjid" doesn't mean "temple" and is never used in the great reading to mean a physical place but it means an insitution of authority such as government. Our institutions of authority should be built on the truth from our Lord. In 834, we are told that the rejecters were turning away people from the truth from our Lord. We see this everyday when self-appointed religious and political authorities who claim to be the custodians of the truth, actually turn people away from the truth.
Even in modern times, the true meaning of the word "masjid" as an institution of authority survives. Hence, we hear about "al-masjid" issuing a fatwa. Do the phsyical building and walls and ceilings issue a "fatwa" or does the institution of authority issue a "fatwa"?
So what happens now? Well the rest of the Surah deals with fighting these unbelievers. It gives the believers advice and uplifting words for the battle. So eventually Muhammad and the believers would have gone and taken Mecca and ever since the followers performed the pilgrimage there.
The fight is one of liberation from people such as political and religious elite who claimed authority over people by assuming the roles of custodians over the truth from our lord.
What did this pilgrimage consist of? I don't know.
Because "7ajj" doesn't me pilgrimage.
Does the Quran describe what the pilgrimage should consist of? It describes the call to the pilgrimage Abraham made which consisted of people coming togethor to rejoice the blessings of God and performing "the rites." What were these rites? I don't know. Animal sacrifice maybe.
Would Muhammad have to perform the Pilgrimage the same way Abraham did? Not necessarily. God says for every nation he has made certain rites (2267). The rites Muhammad performed might have just been what he knew of the pilgrimage performed by the Arabs which from what I understand was a sort of a festival, like Abrahams, anyways.
The pre-quranic Arab pagans performed pilgrimages for their main idols, which were Dhu Al-Shaara, Allat, Al-Uzza, and Manwat. The pagan pilgrimage was conducted around the winter solstice in celebration of the birth of Dhu Al-Shaara. Those celebrations culminated with the pagans spinning seven times around the inner sanctuary of the temple.
While it is documented in the great reading (2227) that it is Abraham who originally invited people to "7ajj", there is no evidence that any of the previous Abrahamic religions performed such pilgrimages or rituals at any point of time. In fact, quite to the contrary, the evidence shows that previous Abrahamic religions frowned on those pilgrimages and considered their rituals purely pagan. So this cannot be what Abraham invited people to.
On the other hand, it is an old Semitic custom that is even referred to in the older parts of the Pentateuch, to have a gathering three times a year (See Encyclopedia of Islam II ). This matches well with the four restricted full-moons, with the first scorching full-moon being that for fasting while the next three signaling the gathering of "7ajj" three times a year.
According to Classical Arabic dictionaries, "7ajj" means "debate". We are told in 2227 that Ibrahim invited all people "WITH/BI al-7ajj" to witness benefits. You can only invite ALL people with something beneficial and non-discriminatory. We are told in 2827 that Moses was hired to work for 8 "7ijaj". What was he hired to do? Clearly, he was hired to work and tend for sheep (2823-24) and NOT for any pagan religious pilgrimage. What does working and tending sheep has to do with "7ajj"? Naturally, people work and produce so that they can BARGAIN with their products. Bargaining is a kind of debate and it results in witnessing benefits by the seller and the buyer.
Hence, "7ajj" is more likely to be a gathering like the annual fair. People work all year and then come from all over to trade their products, get benefits, meet other people, and be reminded of The God's favors. Mid summer - fall is the natural time for such markets because produce and livestock are plentiful. The large gathering of "7ajj" simply provides a good opportunity to remind as many people as possible of The God. It is also an opportunity for the advantaged to donate and provide for the disadvantaged. This view is attested to and is consistent with what is known about pre-quranic annual markets such as the market of 3ukaz (See Encyclopedia of Islam II ).
What can we see as being added onto this pilgrimage by later generations?
-Associating it with Abraham
-The footprint of Abraham
-Bowing down to the KabaThe meaning of "7ajj" as "pilgrimage" itself was added by later generations so that they can continue their pagans practices under the guise of following the great reading.
About the Black meteor, I think this might have been left there by Muhammad because in a way, that meteor is sign of the wonders of God. It is a rock from outerspace, so in that way it is another sign for the people, but not in anyway to be venerated as it is now. But this can not be backed up by the Quran so I don't know.
The so-called Black Stone is NOT a meteor. It is a kind of stone called Tektite. Tektites are earthly stones that result from the melting and solidification of the earths' stones after high velocity impacts from meteors. But they are not meteors.
Moreover, it is not actually "a rock" but it is a bunch of rocks (three large pieces and some smaller fragments) that are tied up together with a silver strap.
Tektites have been idolized for a long time before the revelation of the great reading. For example, the Semites venerated black stone Tektites that represented a triple-aspected female goddess.
Seeing things like this, the Islamic history or the Kaba and Mecca make a lot more sense.
The archeology shows that the history and the practices that continue to this day are in fact "pagan" and not "Islamic".
In this situation, we don't have to assume that all of Muhammads family, companions and every Muslim who knew him betrayed him and God.
I have had that stance for the past two years, but now when I think more about it, I think I have been a bit extreme on the matter. As I mentioned earlier, assuming and thinking that every Muslim including Muhammads best friends, disciples, and family betrayed him is very very hard to imagine. That is why I am trying to find out what really happened during Muhammads time and soon after his death and that is what I have been trying to discuss for much of this thread.
Haven't we learned anything from what Jesus' family, companions and most people who knew him did after he died? Why should Ahmed be given a better treatment by people than Jesus?
Much of the Sunnah we have today has existed since the very early days of Islam. Even non-muslims record this. As I stated earlier, there are non-muslim accounts from about 28 years after Muhammad which describe much of the sunnah being practiced today.
NO ONE knows exactly when the prophet was born or died. How did you calculate the "28 years" figure?
Also, what "non-muslim" physical archeological evidence are you referring to?
Please remember that "hearsay" is not evidence. Perhaps you are talking about non-muslim reports about early sects that they perceived as "monotheistic". Interestingly, those early sects were called other things besides Muslim.
According to Sunnis, the only early archeological evidence of a Hadith or Sunna is the Sahifa of Hammam which they say dates to the late first century AH so this is much longer than 28 years later. However, the dating is tenuous and no independent verification through, for example, carbon dating has been conducted. You then don't get anything for close to two hundred years. In fact, there are many versions of Malik's Muwataa (the earliest Hadith collection) and NONE of them was written by Malik. So, we don't really know exactly who wrote the Muwataa or when.
That is why I think Mecca and the Kaba did have a significance in the life of Muhammad. There are parts of the sunnah, such as bowing to the Kaba and much of the Hajj ritual which I have severe doubts about, but besides that there is not much which I contend with. Five prayers are questionable as well, but are not completly out of the question. I can see how a person could get 5 prayers out of the Quran. As for the method of prayer, this is something I have doubts about as well. Standing up, reciting the Quran seem fine, but bowing down to the Kaba, saying Amen, looking left&right at the end don't have any basis in the Quran. A prophet bowing down to a stone structure seems highly unlikley.
The problems that you are describing are concerned with what Sunnis consider the most important "pillars". They are not some minor systemic problems. They are fundamental problems that expose the systematic deep and widespread corruption in Sunnah and other hearsay sources.
So to sum it all up, I think parts of the Sunnah are genuine. Throwing it all away would be implying that all Muslims betrayed Muhammad following his death.
The Sunnah can only give us a glimpse of the kind of religious programming that people listened to during the period of decay of the Abbasid Empire. This decay continues to this date. It doesn't tell us anything about the actual practices of the prophet or his followers at the time of the revelation of the great reading.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
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Peace Ayman, Riz, all,
Brother Ayman, thank you for your detailed and enlightening exposition of the facts, may The God bless you for your efforts.
I agree with the understanding of masjid alharam being a non physical focal point. Correct me if I am wrong but there was no physical building by the name of masjid alharam in Makkah at the time of revelation of the "focal point" ayaat. That building was constructed much later and given the name "masjid alharam" much later. Hence the focal point could not have been that physical building as it was non existent at that time.
Brother Riz,
I am glad to see that you are making an effort to base your analysis on concrete true facts (based on Qur'aan and archeological evidence). yay God willing we all will be able to find the truth with this approach. D
Incognito, that verse is talking about the former people such as the Jews. To say, by using that verse, that Muhammads followers did the same is speculation. It is possible and I am not ruling it out, but I want to keep all possibilities open.
I agree that ayat is talking about Jews, but Qur'aan is a universal message for all times and its message and principles are applicable to all nations at all times.
-Abraham was in Becca, not Mecca.
-Mecca was never Becca.Agreed. yes
-Muhammad is not related to Abraham. Is there any solid Quranic evidence I am missing about this last point?
It does not matter for our guidance if Muhammad is related to Abraham or not; however Arabs are descendants of Abraham, and Muhammad was originally from that nation so IMO he must have been from Abraham's progeny.
The following ayaat could be an evidence of that
2151 As We have sent a messenger to you from amongst yourselves to recite Our revelations to you, and purify you, and teach you the Scripture and the wisdom, and teach you what you did not know.
3165 God has bestowed favour upon the believers by sending them a messenger from amongst themselves reciting His revelations and bettering them and teaching them the Scripture and the wisdom, and they were before in manifest darkness.
623 He is the One who sent to the Gentiles a messenger from among themselves, to recite to them His revelations, and to purify them, and teach them the Scripture and the wisdom. And before this, they were clearly astray.Much of the Sunnah we have today has existed since the very early days of Islam.
The word "sunnata" has been used only pertaining to The God in the Qur'aan, and no one else (1778, 3339, 3363, 3544-45, 4085, 4824), so "sunnah of The God" is the only "sunnah". The word used in the Qur'aan for example of the messenger is "uswatun", and all the true examples of the messengers necessary for our guidance are recorded in the Qur'aan.
FEW MORE POINTS
- According to 1088, qibla is only related to the subject of salat and has no bearing on the location of kaaba or the hajj/debate/conference/symposium.
1088 And We inspired to Moses and his brother "Let your people leave their homes in Egypt, and let these homes be your focal point and uphold the contact-method. And give good news to the believers."
- The traditional muslims acknowledge that masjid alharam and bayt alharam are not one and the same. They place masjid alharam as the area surrounding the ?kaaba?, while making the bayt alharam as the "kaaba" (the black cube idol) itself.
Herein lies the dilemma? hmm
929 O you who believe, those who have set up partners are impure, so let them not approach almasjid alharam after this calendar year of theirs; and if you fear poverty, then God will enrich you from His blessings if He wills. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
Almasjid alharam has been made off-limits to the idolaters and to those who have set-up partners. While the ?restricted sanctuary? (bayt al-haram) is open to all mankind and has no such restriction (Qur'aan 2226)
2226 And call out to mankind with the Hajj, they will come to you walking and on every transport, they will come from every deep enclosure.
Thus, by choice of location, they have inadvertently cut-off access to the bayt alharam by the people (as per the command in 2226) and have in essence nullified the entire purpose of the hajj being a gathering for all mankind!
This clearly proves that the actual masjid alharam cannot be the so called "Masjid Al-Haram" surrounding the black cube idol.
- To quote you from another thread
To me, Islam is the only Universal religion out there because its creed is so simple and can be applied whether you are on earth, on the moon, or elsewhere.
Agreed. Now if masjid alharam is a physical focal point, which direction will you face if you are located in a spot on Earth directly opposite to the masjid alharam ? Also which direction will you face if you are in space or on Moon or some other planetary system ? hmm
2115 And to God belongs the east and the west, so wherever you turn, there is God's presence. God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable.
2142 The foolish from amongst the people will Say "What has turned them away from the focal point that they were on?" Say "To God is the east and the west, He guides whomsoever He wishes to a straight path."
2177 Piety is not to turn your faces towards the east and the west, but piety is one who..........Peace and best regards, >-
Tanveer