ABSURDITY OF THEOCRACY?
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Theocracy - Divine Dictatorship?
yes indeed, God being the dictator.
God as the Divine Dictator?
Noah why do you "anthropomorphise" your understanding of God!?
No wonder people have used this kind of understanding of God to carry out the most of vilest acts in it's name!
Noah God is beyond all human concepts! He is not a father figure Noah with long beard sitting on a Big Throne. Grow up!
Yeah or the current democratic crusades. sure, i remember. The problem all the time however was the fact that poeple on a a general scale was analphabets. Thus they didnt know their own rights. Is this in line with the Quran you reckon? or perhaps the opening line READ! is a clue that its not?
I am not clear what you are trying to say above?
Or do you think an Islamic Divine Dictatorship will work this time time around? Do you know that Caliphates also failed miserably?
There never was one, because
Always that excuse isn't it. And you think there could be one? -)
And what becomes of the people who do not believe in an Islamic or any monotheistic God like the Buddhist?
They are protected, and so are their rights to practice wahtever faith they may have, and establish churches and temples. And if they haveno faith, they are free to not make any churches, as long as they abide by the rules.
This is same as democracy?
But suppose some people don't want to live under your Divine Dictatorship. And these people come together and form their own community and then they declare themselves independent from your Divine Dictatorship? How would you deal with that?
Regards,
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God as the Divine Dictator?
Noah why do you "anthropomorphise" your understanding of God!?
No wonder people have used this kind of understanding of God to carry out the most of vilest acts in it's name!
Noah God is beyond all human concepts! He is not a father figure Noah with long beard sitting on a Big Throne. Grow up!
thats a whole lot of assuming right there as usual. You do not have any idea of what my concept or understanding of God are, yet you insist that you do. Why brother?
God gave us a book of law, thus God is a divine dictator. But as there arent any laws in it for motor vehicles, traffic etc.. we need to use the democratic model, as outlined within the book. To sort our disputes. But for the crimes that always was, always will be, the law is as it is. This is the excact mechanism that if implementet protects the people against the government.I am not clear what you are trying to say above?
The problem is that people cant read, thus they do not know their rights. To some extend this is the trademark of al fascsist regimes, nomatter what they based themself upon.
Always that excuse isn't it. And you think there could be one? -)
Yes i do. You started this thread, so i would think that it was obvious that i do.
This is same as democracy?
No its a theocracy. the difference is that in a democracy man is the final word. in a theocracy, God is (this means his book)
But suppose some people don't want to live under your Divine Dictatorship. And these people come together and form their own community and then they declare themselves independent from your Divine Dictatorship? How would you deal with that?
How does the democratic west deal with that? think waco. think montana freemen, think christania etc.. it doesnt. It either remove them by brute force, or kill them without a trial. History shows this LT.
I would kindly ask them to leave, and if they refuse, i would toss them out. As the divine dictatorship is the law of the land. And if they do not like it. Im sure there are other places they would like.
And now that i have given you fuel to your next arguement. Well why dont the muslims leave then., why dont you leave then, allow me to answer up front.
Where would i go? Where can i go in this world, that are not under international maritime admiralty law, thus directly controlled by western financial interrests...yes thats right LT, even those evil muslim countrys, are under total western domination through international banking laws. But you didnt know that did you? I have asked you to look it up before.
Peace
Noah -
Peace Noah and LT,
God gave us a book of law, thus God is a divine dictator. But as there arent any laws in it for motor vehicles, traffic etc.. we need to use the democratic model, as outlined within the book. To sort our disputes. But for the crimes that always was, always will be, the law is as it is. This is the excact mechanism that if implementet protects the people against the government.
The God's book is simply a guide. It gives principles and examples that we can use for guidance. The God's laws are not only in the book. They are also all around us in the universe.
If you talk about using a "democratic model" then this is diametrically opposed to the book because democracy is "rule of the majority" and we are told in the book that the majority is wrong.
The problem is that people cant read, thus they do not know their rights. To some extend this is the trademark of al fascsist regimes, nomatter what they based themself upon.
This is where I believe the book can help. The principles in the book provide us with God-given human rights that are essential for a community to progress.
No its a theocracy. the difference is that in a democracy man is the final word. in a theocracy, God is (this means his book)
But the book itself is "anti-theocracy". Organized religion is generally not looked on positively in the book.
How does the democratic west deal with that? think waco. think montana freemen, think christania etc.. it doesnt. It either remove them by brute force, or kill them without a trial. History shows this LT.
This just shows that "democracy" is wrong. It doesn't mean that "theocracy" (religious rule) is correct.
I would kindly ask them to leave, and if they refuse, i would toss them out. As the divine dictatorship is the law of the land. And if they do not like it. Im sure there are other places they would like.
This is exactly why theocracy is wrong. Why would you kick people out of their own land just because of "religious" differences when they didn't hurt anyone or attack you? If they follow a wrong system and are oppressing their own followers, just leave your doors open so that people who see that your system is better can join you. All you have to do is to be a good example. Eventually the other community will see that you are progressing and they are not and will change their own community or it will collapse on its own. If you are wrong and they are right, then the opposite will happen. You will see your population leave and join them.
And now that i have given you fuel to your next arguement. Well why dont the muslims leave then., why dont you leave then, allow me to answer up front.
Where would i go? Where can i go in this world, that are not under international maritime admiralty law, thus directly controlled by western financial interrests...yes thats right LT, even those evil muslim countrys, are under total western domination through international banking laws. But you didnt know that did you? I have asked you to look it up before.
What is needed is international rights. Law only comes into play when a right is violated and in this case the only law we need is the law of equivalence to punish the violator. Let each community make its own laws based on those principles of unchangeable God-given human rights. Competition and open borders (the right to freedom of movement) will naturally take care of the rest.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Ayman
The God's book is simply a guide. It gives principles and examples that we can use for guidance. The God's laws are not only in the book. They are also all around us in the universe.
agreed
If you talk about using a "democratic model" then this is diametrically opposed to the book because democracy is "rule of the majority" and we are told in the book that the majority is wrong.
In lack of better terms i refer to it as a democratic model in the sense that people or their elected leaders make laws in subjects not touched by the Quran, like the allready settled punishment for theft i.e
This is where I believe the book can help. The principles in the book provide us with God-given human rights that are essential for a community to progress.
Agreed
But the book itself is "anti-theocracy". Organized religion is generally not looked on positively in the book.
I agree, it isnt. However, we are not talking about organised relegion, but a state based on Quran
This just shows that "democracy" is wrong. It doesn't mean that "theocracy" (religious rule) is correct.
I disagree. Just like we had to relearn many things about our faith during the last years. Im sure we hafve a lot to learn regarding what excactly relegious rule is. Because if that is equal to mullah control...im off. I just dont think that it is, or ever was the purpose.
This is exactly why theocracy is wrong. Why would you kick people out of their own land just because of "religious" differences when they didn't hurt anyone or attack you?
If they refuse to follow the law and form their own society with their own laws in the middle of it, thats a problem. Especially if they allow say...theft. where we dont.
If they follow a wrong system and are oppressing their own followers, just leave your doors open so that people who see that your system is better can join you. All you have to do is to be a good example. Eventually the other community will see that you are progressing and they are not and will change their own community or it will collapse on its own. If you are wrong and they are right, then the opposite will happen. You will see your population leave and join them.
I agree to this reasoning. and given that the group pose no problem what so ever...well then there isnt any problem is there
What is needed is international rights. Law only comes into play when a right is violated and in this case the only law we need is the law of equivalence to punish the violator. Let each community make its own laws based on those principles of unchangeable God-given human rights. Competition and open borders (the right to freedom of movement) will naturally take care of the rest.
agreed. Good post. I guess i need to rethink my stand on how the state should interact with the populaton.
Peace
Noah -
Salaamun alaikum,
If you go by al-quraan , its not a question of theocracy vs democracy. This is an illusion perpetrated by the mythmakers. Al-Quraan says
Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of TAGHOOT So fight ye against the friends of Satan feeble indeed is the cunning of Satan (4/76)So either you're fighting in Allah's way or you're fighting in a false god's way. It's all a theocracy, including serving yourself (as 'hawaa'/lust is also a false god - 25/43)
As for LT and his dhimmis and jiyza, if '2 years of reading the quran' didn't help him to dispel that myth, I dont know what will. Look at this
LT Noah God is beyond all human concepts! He is not a father figure Noah with long beard sitting on a Big Throne. Grow up!
In other words, there's nothing in the corpus of human concepts which allow us to understand Allah. Not even something His messenger brings. What does Al-quraan say to that
Those who deny Allah and His messengers, and (those who) wish to SEPERATE ALLAH FROM HIS MESSENGERS, saying "We believe in some but reject others" And (those who) wish to take a course midway,- They are UNBELIEVERS IN TRUTH; and we have prepared for unbelievers a humiliating punishment. (4/150-151)
NoahI agree, it isnt. However, we are not talking about organised relegion, but a state based on Quran
Brother, perhaps the best word is 'umma' . Al-quraan doesn't have the notion of a state but does propagate the notion of a community with certain traits. The umma of believers and muslims.
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Peace Noah,
the quran you are thinking of for that theocrazy is the free-minds 'The Message?, isn't it?
Elena
I hope not. I'd prefer the original text over any translation.
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Peace Noah,
the quran you are thinking of for that theocrazy is the free-minds 'The Message?, isn't it?
Elena
or similar, yes it is.
Peace
Noah -
Peace Noah,
the quran you are thinking of for that theocrazy is the free-minds 'The Message?, isn't it?
Elena
I hope not. I'd prefer the original text over any translation.
As i dont read Arab very well. Elena is perfectly right. For MY choice, its the free-minds one or similar p
Peace
Noah -
NoahAs i dont read Arab very well. Elena is perfectly right. For MY choice, its the free-minds one or similar p
Have u read this
http//www.toluislam.com/pub_online/quranic_laws/q_laws.htm
it might help , although i disagree with the notion of a state at all.
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agreed. Good post. I guess i need to rethink my stand on how the state should interact with the populaton.
NoahBack to the drawing board for you Noah?
Please do come back after you have re-thought everything.
-)Regards,
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Hello Ayman,
What is needed is international rights. Law only comes into play when a right is violated and in this case the only law we need is the law of equivalence to punish the violator. Let each community make its own laws based on those principles of unchangeable God-given human rights. Competition and open borders (the right to freedom of movement) will naturally take care of the rest.
Can you clarify this - this does not mean Eye for an Eye, Tooth for a Tooth does it?
Regards,
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Peace Noah,
the quran you are thinking of for that theocrazy is the free-minds 'The Message?, isn't it?
Elena
or similar, yes it is.
Peace
NoahI see.
Then, theocrazy based on the quran "The Message"; no Sunnah, no Hadits, no opinion of the jurists -- I suppose, and personal reasoning yes?I think there will be hardly a soul there...imagine how many groups will be excluded?
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Can you clarify this - this does not mean Eye for an Eye, Tooth for a Tooth does it?
Regards,
Lote Tree,
Have you got a problem with this law? Do you have a better law that protects the victims?
thanks
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Can you clarify this - this does not mean Eye for an Eye, Tooth for a Tooth does it?
Regards,
Lote Tree,
Have you got a problem with this law? Do you have a better law that protects the victims?
thanks
Yes, I think it is of the past, the past we have left behind.
Eye for an Eye makes the world go blind. -
Eye for an Eye makes the world go blind.
Ah how beautiful ! So the oppressor gets to keep blinding while the oppressed is told this beautiful saying !
Why does the Quran says "To Forgive is Better"?
Is it out of sheer fun of it after blinding someone with the law of Eye for an Eye?Regards,
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Salaam LoteTree,
You make no sense. Maybe that is because you have no sense of the quran so I do not blame you if that is the case.
JoeHow easy you make it for me with your neat little sentences -)
But we "had" our chat chap.
If you want to contribute to this thread then please do so.
If not send me PM for any personal remarks that you may have and we will take from there OK?
Thanks.
Regards,
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Hello Lote Tree,
Will you kindly address the question instead of resorting to short cut, cliche responses? You do realise this is a cliche against the Old testament and has nothing to do with the quran don't you? I don't ask this question out of malice, you claim to have outgrown the scripture, I want to hear exactly how you prevent the injustice against victims. How do you prevent taking care of the criminals but forgetting the victims?
It is a well known feature of big robberies that witnesses are customarily killed, often citing they'll only get a few years and be out. What I want to know is how does your view of justice prevent such a callous way of taking life?
Can you clarify this - this does not mean Eye for an Eye, Tooth for a Tooth does it?
Regards,
Lote Tree,
Have you got a problem with this law? Do you have a better law that protects the victims?
thanks
Yes, I think it is of the past, the past we have left behind.
Eye for an Eye makes the world go blind.