Zayd, adopted son?

marie

Peace Hasan,

I change my mind about 3336. It seems logical that the underlined verbs were adressed to the prophet not to zayd

And thou said to the one who was blessed by God, and blessed by you ?Keep your wife and reverence God,? and thou hid inside yourself what God wished to proclaim. And thou feared the people, while it was God thou were supposed to fear. So when Zayd ended his relationship with his wife, We had you marry her, to establish that there is no wrongdoing for the believers in marrying the wives of their adopted sons if their relationship is ended. And God's command is always done.

Wa-ith taqoolu lillatheeanAAama Allahu AAalayhi waanAAamta AAalayhi amsik AAalaykazawjaka waittaqi Allaha watukhfee fee nafsika maAllahu mubdeehi watakhsha alnnasa waAllahuahaqqu an takhshahu falamma qadazaydun minha wataran zawwajnakahalikay la yakoona AAala almu/mineena harajunfee azwaji adAAiya-ihim itha qadawminhunna wataran wakana amru Allahi mafAAoolan

The grammar supports this understanding, this is not the same tense when the God adressed the prophet and when the prophet adressed his adopted son ( this is an amr/order amsik/keep and ittaqi/reverence).

The underlined verbs are in the present tense but it is not false to use the past tense in the translation. At the time of the revelation, the prophet was adressed that he says (taqool present tense) not he said (qulta past tense), idem for the verb akhfa (to hide), tukhfee (present tense) and not akhfayta (past tense)...etc.

Peace

mmkhan

Peace,

Peace be upon you and all in Islam,

Are you sure "mubdeehi" means "reveal" ?
(in the sense of "to reveal the quran")

No brother, it cannot mean reveal as the word NZL has been used for reveal.

Yusufali translates it by "to make manifest", and Pickthal "to bring to light".

Not sure about these translations. But unfortunately, I don't find the same word used in AlQuraan anywhere else.

If anyone knows the usage of same word or its root in AlQuraan please do let me know.

Regards,

MMKhan

unknownuser

I see you are all hard at word trying to twist the arabic language to clean up the Quran....

A big Task!!!!

mmkhan

Peace Hasan,

I change my mind about 3336. It seems logical that the underlined verbs were adressed to the prophet not to zayd

And thou said to the one who was blessed by God, and blessed by you ?Keep your wife and reverence God,? and thou hid inside yourself what God wished to proclaim. And thou feared the people, while it was God thou were supposed to fear. So when Zayd ended his relationship with his wife, We had you marry her, to establish that there is no wrongdoing for the believers in marrying the wives of their adopted sons if their relationship is ended. And God's command is always done.

Wa-ith taqoolu lillatheeanAAama Allahu AAalayhi waanAAamta AAalayhi amsik AAalaykazawjaka waittaqi Allaha watukhfee fee nafsika maAllahu mubdeehi watakhsha alnnasa waAllahuahaqqu an takhshahu falamma qadazaydun minha wataran zawwajnakahalikay la yakoona AAala almu/mineena harajunfee azwaji adAAiya-ihim itha qadawminhunna wataran wakana amru Allahi mafAAoolan

The grammar supports this understanding, this is not the same tense when the God adressed the prophet and when the prophet adressed his adopted son ( this is an amr/order amsik/keep and ittaqi/reverence).

The underlined verbs are in the present tense but it is not false to use the past tense in the translation. At the time of the revelation, the prophet was adressed that he says (taqool present tense) not he said (qulta past tense), idem for the verb akhfa (to hide), tukhfee (present tense) and not akhfayta (past tense)...etc.

Peace

Salaamun Alaikum Marie and all in Islam,

Sister, I would like to ask here why are we bringing in the Prophet or Messenger of Allah in this verse? This might be the case of someone else. Zyad could be an adopted son of someone else. Is there no possibility? Indeed, there is

Allah is very specific in His Quraan. As I say always, all the words used is specifically used in every verse. And it got a purpose.

3336

3337

3338

3339

3340

You can notice that how clearly Allah has mentioned in each verse regarding Messenger and Prophet. But in 3337 there is no mentioned of either Messenger or Prophet but "Ka" has been used which can be used for anybody and it cannot be ONLY refering to Prophet Mohammed.

And 3339 is clear enough to understand the standards of Messengers of Allah. There is no way of any Messenger doing such things showing in 3337

Is 933-11 all refering ONLY to the Prophet?

And the following is clear enough to see the usage of "Ka" inshaAllah.

801
He frowned and turned away. 801
Who is He? Prophet Mohammed? No way!

802
When the blind one came to him. 802
Please note that "Hu" is used instead of "Ka". So, who is Him here? Is this still refering to Prophet Mohammed? If so, then how about the next verse?

803
And what makes you know, perhaps he is seeking to purify? 803
You? If "Hu" is refering to Prophet Mohammed 802 then whom is "Ka" refering to in 803?

If you understand this, then who is mentioned in 3337?

Surely not Prophet Mohammed.

All comments or corrections are welcome.

Regards,

MMKhan

Idris

I see you are all hard at word trying to twist the arabic language to clean up the Quran....

A big Task!!!!

I could have said the same thing to your regarding the Greek language in this post, but of course how dare we have a different translation and interpretation then what is commonly viewed, that right is reserved for Albion alone

marie

Salam brother mmkhan,

You make a good analyze but 3338 let me think that 3337 is about the prophet.

We could be sure about one point, it is not Zayd who is adressed by the underlind verbs in 3337.

3337...We had thou marry her, to establish that there is no wrongdoing for the believers in marrying the wives of their adopted sons if their relationship is ended. And God's command is always done.

There is no blame on the prophet in doing anything that God has decreed upon him. Such was God's way with the people of old. And God's command is a determined duty.

thou concerns the prophet, if it is about another person, I think the God would adress him by using the article HE not THOU..

Another example similar than 3337

And thou said to the one who was blessed by God, and blessed by thou ?Keep your wife and reverence God,? and thou hid inside yourself what God wished to proclaim. And thou feared the people, while it was God thou were supposed to fear. So when Zayd ended his relationship with his wife, We had you marry her, to establish that there is no wrongdoing for the believers in marrying the wives of their adopted sons if their relationship is ended. And God's command is always done.

Wa-ith taqoolu lillatheeanAAama Allahu AAalayhi waanAAamta AAalayhi amsik AAalaykazawjaka waittaqi Allaha watukhfee fee nafsika maAllahu mubdeehi watakhsha alnnasa waAllahuahaqqu an takhshahu falamma qadazaydun minha wataran zawwajnakahalikay la yakoona AAala almu/mineena harajunfee azwaji adAAiya-ihim itha qadawminhunna wataran wakana amru Allahi mafAAoolan

When thou said to the believers ?Is it not enough for you that God would supply you with three thousand of the Angels sent down??

Ith taqoolu lilmu/mineena alanyakfiyakum an yumiddakum rabbukum bithalathati alafinmina almala-ikati munzaleena

Salam

unknownuser

3337...We had thou marry her, to establish that there is no wrongdoing for the believers in marrying the wives of their adopted sons if their relationship is ended. And God's command is always done.

Yes it is one of Muhammads Self Serving Verses... just one of many...

savage_carrot

Yes it is one of Muhammads Self Serving Verses... just one of many...

Yes, the above is another example of Albions Self Serving Posts... just one of many...

Why don't we have an ignore poster button on this forum so we can read significant posts instead of the litter? It's a rhetorical question btw...

wildguest1956

My opinion is that the aim of verses is to highlight the following principles

God's commands have to be implemented
The messenger's commands have to be implemented too, if and only if they conform to God's commands
the popular opinion has to play no role

(I am using Shakir's translation)

And it behoves not a believing man and a believing woman that they should have any choice in their matter when Allah and His Messenger have decided a matter; and whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he surely strays off a manifest straying.

One way of understanding this verse would be that all messenger's decision have to be obeyed. But verse shows a counter-example to this. In , the messenger asks Zayd to stay with his wife, and zayd has eventually divorced.
Some people might think that popular opinion is important, but, in , the messenger is said to have married the former wife of his adopted son, whereas the popular opinion was refusing it.
Marrying the wife of a real son is not permitted (), but an adopted son is not like a real son .

And when you said to him to whom Allah had shown favor and to whom you had shown a favor "Keep your wife to yourself and be careful of (your duty to) Allah"; and you concealed in your soul what Allah would bring to light,

Muhammad was concealing in his soul that the marriage was a failure, and that Zayd and his wife would eventually divorce.

and you feared men, and Allah had a greater right that you should fear Him.

Muhammad feared that people would criticize him if he did not manage to convince Zayd an his wife to stay together.
But, as it was only his personal decision, God reminds him that his only duty is to implement God's rules.

But when Zaid had accomplished his want of her, We gave her to you as a wife,

Here, we should not conclude that God has ordered him in a private revelation to marry Zayd's former wife.
This kind of formulation is frequent in the Quran, and should not be understood in this way...
Everything in the universe follows God's laws laws of physics, biology, psychology, etc...
We, as human, live according to these laws ; we react according to these laws, think and use our brain according to these laws, fall in love according to these laws...
In , God is said to have taught the believers to train dogs. But, there were no revelation. The believers have learned to train the dogs just as using their brains.
So, in , God says that circumstances of life (that all work according to his laws) have made Muhammad marry her.

so that there should be no difficulty for the believers in respect of the wives of their adopted sons, when they have accomplished their want of them; and Allah's command shall be performed.

Again, God insists on the fact that his rules should be prevalent over everything, including popular opinion.

There is no harm in the Prophet doing that which Allah has ordained for him; such has been the course of Allah with respect to those who have gone before; and the command of Allah is a decree that is made absolute

God has ordained the prophet (as well as the believers) to follow his rules, and there should be no harm on this.

Hope it helps,

Peace

Wilson

Peace,

wa ith taqoolu = and when you said
li llathee anAAama Allahu AAalayhi = to who favoured The God on him
wa anAAamta AAalayhi = and you favoured on him
amsik AAalayka zawjaka = hold on on/to you your wife
wa ittaqi Allaha = and be mindful The God
wa tukhfee fee nafsika = and you hid in yourself
ma Allahu mubdeehi = what The God showing it
wa takhsha al nnasa = and you fear the people
wa Allahu ahaqqu an takhshahu = and The God His Right that you fear Him
fa lamma qada zaydun minha wataran = so when ended zayd from her relationship
zawwajnakaha = We married her to you
likay la yakoona AAala al mumineena harajun = so that not be on the believers blame
fee azwaji adAAiya-ihim = in wives called after them
itha qadaw minhunna wataran = when ended from them relationship
wa kana amru Allahi mafAAoolan = and is/was command The God done

Wilson

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Mu'Min,

Please give in your words what you think it is saying. I still cant grasp it.

Wilson

Peace,

I think we both know the traditional interpretation of this verse.

But I think there might be something in your discontent with the understanding of "zayd" as a proper noun...

"fa lamma qada zaydun minha wataran"
so when ended 'zaydun' from her 'wataran'.

Let's see what happens if we don't treat it as a proper noun.
so when ended increase/growth from her 'wataran'.

Muhamad Ahmed & Samira translate wataran as 'need/desire';
Shakir translates it as 'want';
Hilali & Khan translate it as 'desire'.

...so when ended increase from her need/desire/want...

I don't know ? if this makes any sense or if at all it's correct according to grammatical rules;
but like Wakas this is out of my league at present...

Wilson

unknownuser

Peace be upon you,

Yes, it is out of my league currently as well, but I thank you for the help in translating the verse in another method that I "FEEL" might be correct once the context is truly understood.