THEFT PUNISHMENT

savage_carrot

Peace saladin,

savage_carrot wrote
if you still think it's cutting OFF of both hands, I dare you to show me how you can cut off your left hand after cutting off your right.

what is this supposed to mean ? i dont get it .

We were talking about verse 1231 and how it is marking and not cutting OFF of both hands...We have a scenario, a group of women, all with knives in their hands. They see something wondrous, they get over excited and mark their hands holding the knives. Perfectly understandable, i guess...

When asked about do you think these women cut their hands OFF, you said

why ? is it impossible ?

Now i ask you, these women have cut both their hands OFF...how do you cut the remaining hand if YOU HAVE ONLY ONE HAND LEFT? That remaining hand would be the one holding the knive BTW, so what do you do? Hold the knife in your mouth/foot and start making enough holes in the wrist so the hand will eventually fall off while bleeding to death? Is there a group conspiracy in which the hands are cut alternatively by different women which still leaves one LAST woman with one LAST remaining HAND, or do you propose that the aziz's wife was the hand cutting ring leader which is impossible...

To be honest, this thread has degenerated into stark raving lunacy when a simple verse begs the question is it impossible the women cut their own hands OFF?

el-Aziz

Yo!

the laws are to be applied in a islamic system.

What exactly is an islamic system?
And as you explain it to me and the rest of us reading you answer, try to bring substance that the suggestion in this hand-cutting example is to be applied under such system. Ok?

regards,
S

Fahad1

SaLaM Saladin

So now you believe that hands should be chopped off of repeat offenders? Alright, Same scenario.

You come back and steal my bucket of KFC. I catch you again. According to you, i should chop ur hands off. You repent, God forgives. How will you feed your family now?

i dont know .
peace.

unknownuser

Wasn't it you who thought that behead someone was OK.
You scare the hell out of me with your cruelty.

u are just trying to be more merciful than Allah . u just try to change the commandments of Allah because u think they are brutal and unjust .
Allah knows what is better for us . trust Him .
peace .

What! Saladin says, beheading and cutting hands off OK?

u are just trying to be more merciful than Allah . u just try to change the commandments of Allah because u think they are brutal and unjust .

Cutting hands off and beheading is indeed Brutal! When will you think for yourself Saladin?

Regards,

Jaxal

SaLaM Saladin

Thanks for the honest answer brother. Now, You will have no idea what to do if i cut u hands off for stealing my bucket of KFC to feed your family. EVEN tho you repented and God forgave you, i have deprived your family from you earning an honest living coz now you have no hands.

God already knows that. He knows we wouldnt know what would happen if someone was in your position. Therefore cutting off hands will make absolutely no sense. Where "marking" of hands, whatever and however it may be interpreted as, will. It could simply mean just tie ur hands. Purely as an example. But i hope you see what i mean . D

SwedenMajidah

Salaam Saladin,

You said I try to be more merciful than Allah Himself, well thanks for that.

But Allah is more merciful because he don't tell us to be cruel and he don't tell us to behead someone.

That is the stupid disgusting customs of SA and I hope they will burn for doing this.

Peace
Sis Majidah

Fahad1

Salaam Saladin,

You said I try to be more merciful than Allah Himself, well thanks for that.

But Allah is more merciful because he don't tell us to be cruel and he don't tell us to behead someone.

That is the stupid disgusting customs of SA and I hope they will burn for doing this.

Peace
Sis Majidah

let God decide what is brutal and cruel , and what isnt.

Fahad1

Now i ask you, these women have cut both their hands OFF...how do you cut the remaining hand if YOU HAVE ONLY ONE HAND LEFT?

peace savage_carrot.
when did i say the women cut BOTH their hands ?

el-Aziz

Saladin, why won't you respond to my question?

Fahad1

Yo!

the laws are to be applied in a islamic system.

What exactly is an islamic system?
And as you explain it to me and the rest of us reading you answer, try to bring substance that the suggestion in this hand-cutting example is to be applied under such system. Ok?

regards,
S

peace S.
i meant to say that laws are not to be applied under a system where poverty, hunger etc force people to commit these crimes (even though they might not like to commit these crimes) , because God holds us responsible for our innermost intentions .

savage_carrot

Peace saladin,

when did i say the women cut BOTH their hands ?

You added 1231 as evidence for why it's cutting OFF of both hands which you later edited, thats why I said what i did and explained as well in my previous posts.

If you think it's ONE hand...the question of cut vs cut OFF still stands...

So do you think the women cut OFF one hand each when it is completely out of context in the verse?

And can you prove that it is cut OFF and not cut?

edited to correct

Jaxal

SaLaM

Saladin do you still think God meant chopping off hands and not marking them ? shock

el-Aziz

Yo!

the laws are to be applied in a islamic system.

What exactly is an islamic system?
And as you explain it to me and the rest of us reading you answer, try to bring substance that the suggestion in this hand-cutting example is to be applied under such system. Ok?

i meant to say that laws are not to be applied under a system where poverty, hunger etc force people to commit these crimes (even though they might not like to commit these crimes) , because God holds us responsible for our innermost intentions .

What you gave me is not any near answers to my questions.

I can repeat the to make it easier

What is an islamic system (and as you answer - feel free to evolve the concept of the quranic origins of this system)?
Does the quran say that the punishment of cutting ones arm (however that IS to be applied) only is to be applied under such a system?

kind regards,
St?phane

rachmanadi

Peace Saladin

Salaam all.

Interesting discussion.

I just wan't to bring to your attention that there is a situation /condition in which both the cutting and the marking of hands would not be possible, namely when the thief has no hands. We are not created equal, most of us have two hands, some have only one, and others don't have any. Because someone have no hands doesn't necessarily prevent him/her from becoming a thief. So if we catch a handless thief (whether the thief was born that way or because of an accident or maybe even from previous cutting hand punishment for the person's previous stealing), what should we cut or marks?

salam.

salam rachmanadi.
how do we cut the hands of a thief who doesnt have any hand ? we dont .
the stolen stuff should be returned to the owners if possible .
the state can decide what the punishment for such a thief should be , or if there should be any punishment or not .

Could you provide us with the ayats from the Qur'an in which you based that judgement?
As far as I understand the ayat about cutting thieves' hands does not specify any exceptions to the rule (the next verse is an exception which applies in the case the thief repent, not based on their physical condition). So unless there is an exception specified in other ayat, the rule for dealing with thieves, that is to cut their hands, still stands.
Please also remember that a handless person could have prosthetic limbs to replace their missing hands. With the advance in technology, it is not impossible at all that in the future people could have bionics limbs. Why would we let them off without cutting or marking something when we caught them stealing. But if we cut or mark their artificial limbs, it would still not following the rule in literal sense. Also in that case the deterrent effect would be much less, because they can easily replace their damaged prosthetic limbs with new ones.

Regards,
rachmanadi

Fahad1

What is an islamic system (and as you answer - feel free to evolve the concept of the quranic origins of this system)?

a system where the laws of koran are applied .

Does the quran say that the punishment of cutting ones arm (however that IS to be applied) only is to be applied under such a system?

no . but because God does not punish us for the crimes/sins we which were forced to commit .

peace.

Fahad1

Peace Saladin

Salaam all.

Interesting discussion.

I just wan't to bring to your attention that there is a situation /condition in which both the cutting and the marking of hands would not be possible, namely when the thief has no hands. We are not created equal, most of us have two hands, some have only one, and others don't have any. Because someone have no hands doesn't necessarily prevent him/her from becoming a thief. So if we catch a handless thief (whether the thief was born that way or because of an accident or maybe even from previous cutting hand punishment for the person's previous stealing), what should we cut or marks?

salam.

salam rachmanadi.
how do we cut the hands of a thief who doesnt have any hand ? we dont .
the stolen stuff should be returned to the owners if possible .
the state can decide what the punishment for such a thief should be , or if there should be any punishment or not .

Could you provide us with the ayats from the Qur'an in which you based that judgement?
As far as I understand the ayat about cutting thieves' hands does not specify any exceptions to the rule (the next verse is an exception which applies in the case the thief repent, not based on their physical condition). So unless there is an exception specified in other ayat, the rule for dealing with thieves, that is to cut their hands, still stands.
Please also remember that a handless person could have prosthetic limbs to replace their missing hands. With the advance in technology, it is not impossible at all that in the future people could have bionics limbs. Why would we let them off without cutting or marking something when we caught them stealing. But if we cut or mark their artificial limbs, it would still not following the rule in literal sense. Also in that case the deterrent effect would be much less, because they can easily replace their damaged prosthetic limbs with new ones.

Regards,
rachmanadi

how do we punish a criminal who is already dead ? we dont .

brothers and sisters , instead of coming up with irrelevent questions and silly arguments to distract , please make an attempt to answer the arguements and the verses of the koran that i have shown in my previous posts .

peace.

Fahad1

peace savage_carrot.

And can you prove that it is cut OFF and not cut?

i have shown you what means what and why in my previous posts . if they dont make sense to u , i cant help .

some questions for u .

you said u thin marie?s explaination is good , which says to ?SEPARATE? the ?hands? . ?separate? means ?cut off? , not ?mark? . now what happened ? u changed ur belief back to "mark" .

marie

Then 538 can have new meaning

The male thief, and the female thief, you shall separate their hands from what they gained "illegally".

savage_carrot

I think Marie's explanation of 538 is pretty good though...

2 . why didn?t u tell marie , that she should use the word ?mark? , instead of ?separate?(cut off/divide/remove) ?

if u believe that ?hands? is resources in 538 , would u have used the word ?mark? or ?cut off?.

4 .do u even believe that the ?hands? in 538 are physical hands ? if no , why are u asking whether to mark or cut off ? decide first whether it means ?physical hands? or ?resources? .

Try to make sense of all this u are saying . if u want to reject the clear commands of the Koran , and come up with every new meaning other than the one it means , u will definitely come up with more contradictions and non sense like this .

by the way , no one has addressed any of my arguments yet .

peace .

savage_carrot

Peace saladin,

i have shown you what means what and why in my previous posts . if they dont make sense to u , i cant help .

They don't make sense to just about anyone when scrutinized, unless one is hell bent on sticking to an illogical postion.

you said u thin marie?s explaination is good , which says to ?SEPARATE? the ?hands? . ?separate? means ?cut off? , not ?mark? . now what happened ? u changed ur belief back to "mark" .

As you might not have noticed and are thus asking me this question, i have compared all different explanations by dividing them into two literal and one figurative to try and see which one is best...so that those who are willing to think might open up/discuss different points that may have been overlooked. Apparently it didn't make a difference to you.

2 . why didn?t u tell marie , that she should use the word ?mark? , instead of ?separate?(cut off/divide/remove) ?

I told everyone by putting it in a post by comparing them...Is this a case of sour grapes?

if u believe that ?hands? is resources in 538 , would u have used the word ?mark? or ?cut off?.

If i believe hands are resources/figurative in 538, why would i use the literal mark/cutoff? Think!

4 .do u even believe that the ?hands? in 538 are physical hands ? if no , why are u asking whether to mark or cut off ? decide first whether it means ?physical hands? or ?resources? .

I decide after looking at all the verses and what is said in them, what points people have for and against and how logical they are. That is why we DISCUSS. If we have already made up our minds and new information is useless then what's the point? Even if i DON"T decide on any explanation, how does that change my points about YOUR argument?

Try to make sense of all this u are saying . if u want to reject the clear commands of the Koran , and come up with every new meaning other than the one it means , u will definitely come up with more contradictions and non sense like this .

Prove that it means what YOU say it means...till now the only 'non sense' i have heard is chopping OFF of both hands...

by the way , no one has addressed any of my arguments yet .

What arguments? You keep insisting it's cut OFF of both hands and give verses that can't prove your position...then attempt to pass over any questions that people have regarding your position as distracting and non sense...

Jaxal

SaLaM Saladin

Brother why do you insist to argue the same point when clearly it is not the right one? According to you, millions of people will lose the chance to have an honest earning. To say, it wouldnt happen in an islmaic society is crap. The reason being, look at every "islamic society" and name me ONE which is doing it right.

brirob

Peace, all...

Again i say, how could joseph's plot to get his family back have worked if the punishment was to cut his brother's hand, or mark it, or amputate it? Surely GOD did not include this story...AND THAT SPECIFIC DETAIL...in the quran for NO REASON.

brian