IS OPINION/CONJECTURE, RELATIVE TO ALLAH AND DEEN...LYING?
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PEACE, NAXUS,
PRIEST Where, in Al-Quran, can one find Allah making the flesh of swine haram for the Jews? Allah says that He only prohibited them the fat of oxen, sheep, and animals with claws. Ayat 55 makes clear that the food of the People of the Book and our food are lawful to each other. With this in mind then...how is the flesh of swine haram for us, the muslim?
Well Allah make the flesh of swine haram here is the verse 6.145
YUSUFALI Say "I find not in the message received by me by inspiration any (meat) forbidden to be eaten by one who wishes to eat it, unless it be dead meat, or blood poured forth, or the flesh of swine,- for it is an abomination - or, what is impious, (meat) on which a name has been invoked, other than Allah's". But (even so), if a person is forced by necessity, without wilful disobedience, nor transgressing due limits,- thy Lord is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
Thank you for your reply. Here's the problem though. According to Al-Quran, the Jews were only forbidden to eat animals with claws and the fat ox oxen and sheep, except, what adhered to the bones. If ayat 6145 is translated properly, then we have a contradiction/discrepancy in Al-Quran. What I mean is, according to Al-Quran Allah did not prohibit the Jews from eating swine, hence, it must be lawful for them, and their food and our food is lawful for each other...how, then, can the flesh of swine be haram? Do you see my question?
Looking forward to your reply.
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Peace PRIEST_BOKMEI,
Your example is a good one. These groups refuse to accept the fact that, whatever Allah didn't make haram to eat in Al-Quran, is halal.
Let's call the set of food that are clearly "haram" as HRMF. Then, logically the set of food not in HRMF is in the set NOT(HRMF). Now let's look at 55. "Alyawma ohilla lakumu alttayyibatu...". So all that is "alttayyibatu" is "halal". Thus, all food that is "alttayyibatu" is also "halal". Let's call this set of food that is "alttayyibatu" as HLLF.
Now the question is NOT(HRMF) = HLLF? In other words, are all food in the set NOT(HRMF) by default "alttayyibatu"?
Anwar Azim
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Peace bro PRIEST_BOKMEI n all dear bro i was studying Sura Al Maeda than i read the first verse which is
51 O you who believe, honour your contracts. Made lawful for you are all the animals of the livestock, except that which is being recited to you, and what you are not allowed to hunt of the game while you are under restriction. God decrees as He pleases.
the under line portion of the verse shows that all animals r law full except which is being recited in 006.145 n in 53 Allah specificaly forbidden flesh of swine my understanding is that Allah has forbidden the flash of swine because before 55 comes the verse 53 if the flash of swine was Hallal why Allah need to reveal 53 i think 53 has there to explain 55 so we didn,t got mixed up this is just my understanding but i,m open to suggestions n explainations peace -
PEACE, ANWAR,
PRIEST Your example is a good one. These groups refuse to accept the fact that, whatever Allah didn't make haram to eat in Al-Quran, is halal.
Let's call the set of food that are clearly "haram" as HRMF. Then, logically the set of food not in HRMF is in the set NOT(HRMF). Now let's look at 55. "Alyawma ohilla lakumu alttayyibatu...". So all that is "alttayyibatu" is "halal". Thus, all food that is "alttayyibatu" is also "halal". Let's call this set of food that is "alttayyibatu" as HLLF. Now the question is NOT(HRMF) = HLLF? In other words, are all food in the set NOT(HRMF) by default "alttayyibatu"?
A little dizzying for me, Anwar. D Perhaps you could rephrase your reply.
Anyway, I would like to keep things simple and basic. Allah, has determined what is haram and those things are clearly delineated in Al-Quran. Man cannot make anything haram, it is not his province but Allah's. Now, all food that is halal may not be tayyib for a particular individual, however, this does not make that food haram simply because a particular individual may not be able tolerate it. For example, I can no longer tolerate shellfish, because it gives me hives. Shellfish, then, for me, is not tayyib nor is it haram, it is halal, because Allah has not made it haram in His Quran.
Hope this answered your post.
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PEACE, NAXUS,
Peace bro PRIEST_BOKMEI n all dear bro i was studying Sura Al Maeda than i read the first verse which is
51 O you who believe, honour your contracts. Made lawful for you are all the animals of the livestock, except that which is being recited to you, and what you are not allowed to hunt of the game while you are under restriction. God decrees as He pleases.
the under line portion of the verse shows that all animals r law full except which is being recited in 006.145 n in 53 Allah specificaly forbidden flesh of swine my understanding is that Allah has forbidden the flash of swine because before 55 comes the verse 53 if the flash of swine was Hallal why Allah need to reveal 53 i think 53 has there to explain 55 so we didn,t got mixed up this is just my understanding but i,m open to suggestions n explainations peace
51...except that which is being recited to you...
What is recited to us concerning haram food for the Jews, is contained in ayat 6146. With this in mind then, please, this time, answer the following question
According to Al-Quran, the Jews were only forbidden to eat animals with claws and the fat ox oxen and sheep, except, what adhered to the bones. If ayat 6145 is translated properly, then we have a contradiction/discrepancy in Al-Quran. What I mean is, according to Al-Quran Allah did not prohibit the Jews from eating swine, hence, it must be lawful for them, and their food and our food is lawful for each other...how, then, can the flesh of swine be haram?
Looking forward to your reply.
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Peace PRIEST_BOKMEI u,r argument is strong but than why Allah revealed 6145 n 53 wut is the need of these verses why the need of specifically those verses about the flesh of swine when already every animal on planet is made Hallal to us wuts the reason for that can u explain peace
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PRIEST Your example is a good one. These groups refuse to accept the fact that, whatever Allah didn't make haram to eat in Al-Quran, is halal.
Let's call the set of food that are clearly "haram" as HRMF. Then, logically the set of food not in HRMF is in the set NOT(HRMF). Now let's look at 55. "Alyawma ohilla lakumu alttayyibatu...". So all that is "alttayyibatu" is "halal". Thus, all food that is "alttayyibatu" is also "halal". Let's call this set of food that is "alttayyibatu" as HLLF. Now the question is NOT(HRMF) = HLLF? In other words, are all food in the set NOT(HRMF) by default "alttayyibatu"?
A little dizzying for me, Anwar. D Perhaps you could rephrase your reply.
Ok... Are all food that are not haram tayyib? Keep "ohilla lakumu alttayyibatu" in mind when you answer.
Thanks.
Anwar Azim -
PEACE, NAXUS,
Peace PRIEST_BOKMEI u,r argument is strong but than why Allah revealed 6145 n 53 wut is the need of these verses why the need of specifically those verses about the flesh of swine when already every animal on planet is made Hallal to us wuts the reason for that can u explain peace
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What, in particular, makes the argument I'm presenting strong?
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Ayats 6143 and 53, if they are translated correctly, create a discrepancy/contradiction within Al-Quran. We know it is impossible for ayats to contradict one anohter, hence, either both ayats are translated incorrectly or one of them is. Which ayat, given the all of the evidence presented, do you conclude is mistranslated? Abdul Omar Mannan, in his "Dictionary of the Holy Quran", writes the following concerning the definition of khaniza (so-called swine)
Main Entry KHANIZA compound word comprised of khinz-bad and ara- I see it bad; to stink; to be evil; to be bad; dirty; piggy; pig/swine/hog; proud; greedy; stubborn, obstinate, stupidly perverse. pg.166
- The question is, which of the definitions, given all the evidence, is Allah using in Al-Quran? Is it the animal pig or the immoral behavior of people?
Looking forward to your reply.
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PEACE, ANWAR,
Ok... Are all food that are not haram tayyib? Keep "ohilla lakumu alttayyibatu" in mind when you answer.
When you say...tayyib, do you mean for each and every human being or just for some? I'm not certain what point you are trying to make. Perhaps you need to explain yourself clearly at this time.
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6145 Say ?I do not find in what is inspired to me forbidden except that it be already dead, or blood, or the meat of pig, for it is foul; or what is corruptly dedicated to other than God.? Whoever is forced without seeking disobedience or transgression, then your Lord is Forgiving, Merciful.
how can immoral behavier fits here
Forbidden to you is that which is already dead, and the blood, and the meat of pig, and what was sacrificed to other than God, and that which has been strangled, and that which has been beaten to death, and that which has fallen from a height, and that which has been gored, and that which the wild animals have eaten from except what you managed to rescue, and what has been slaughtered on alters, and what you divide by the arrows of chance. This is all vile. Today the rejecters have given up from your system, so do not fear them, but fear Me. Today I have perfected your system for you, and completed My blessings upon you, and I have accepted surrender as the system for you. So, whoever is forced by severe hunger and not seeking sin, then God is Forgiving, Merciful.
i don,t how can immoral behavier be fit there both the verses r about wutis forbiden n wut is not how can u fit immoral behavier there peace
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PEACE, NAXUS,
6145 Say ?I do not find in what is inspired to me forbidden except that it be already dead, or blood, or the meat of pig, for it is foul; or what is corruptly dedicated to other than God.? Whoever is forced without seeking disobedience or transgression, then your Lord is Forgiving, Merciful.
how can immoral behavier fits here
Forbidden to you is that which is already dead, and the blood, and the meat of pig, and what was sacrificed to other than God, and that which has been strangled, and that which has been beaten to death, and that which has fallen from a height, and that which has been gored, and that which the wild animals have eaten from except what you managed to rescue, and what has been slaughtered on alters, and what you divide by the arrows of chance. This is all vile. Today the rejecters have given up from your system, so do not fear them, but fear Me. Today I have perfected your system for you, and completed My blessings upon you, and I have accepted surrender as the system for you. So, whoever is forced by severe hunger and not seeking sin, then God is Forgiving, Merciful.
i don,t how can immoral behavier be fit there both the verses r about wutis forbiden n wut is not how can u fit immoral behavier there peace.
6145 Say ?I do not find in what is inspired to me forbidden except that it be already dead, or blood, or the meat of pig, for it is foul; or what is corruptly dedicated to other than God.? Whoever is forced without seeking disobedience or transgression, then your Lord is Forgiving, Merciful.
6145 Qul la ajidu feema oohiya ilayya muharraman AAala taAAimin yatAAamuhu illa an yakoona maytatan aw daman masfoohan aw lahma khinzeerin fainnahu rijsun aw fisqan ohilla lighayri Allahi bihi famani idturra ghayra baghin wala AAadin fainna rabbaka ghafoorun raheem
Pardon me Naxus, I was thinking about the ayat where Allah turned some rebellious people into apes and swine. Regarding the above ayat, as well as the ayat I was thinking about, the common denominator is "something that is seen as bad". This includes meat that looks bad, as well as, people whose behavior is seen as bad/immoral. Now, if swine ( the animal) is actually what is being referred to in ayat 6145, then the following ayat means Allah turned human being s into apes and pigs
560 Say Shall I inform you of (him who is) worse than this in retribution from Allah? (Worse is he) whom Allah has cursed and brought His wrath upon, and of whom He made apes and swine, and he who served the Shaitan; these are worse in place and more erring from the straight path.
560 Qul hal onabbiokum bisharrin min thalika mathoobatan AAinda Allahi man laAAanahu Allahu waghadiba AAalayhi wajaAAala minhumu alqiradata walkhanazeera waAAabada attaghooti olaika sharrun makanan waadallu AAan sawai assabeel.
Is it your position that Allah actually turned human beings into pigs...or did their behavior reduce to them to the level of pigs, thus, their being "perceived as bad"?
Looking forward to your reply.
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Peace all bro Priest Bokhme regarding verse 560 i will go with the QXP translation which is
560 Say, ?Shall I point out to you something much worse for retribution with Allah? Worse is the case of those whom Allah has rejected, and His Law of Requital hits them. And whom Allah?s Law relegated from the honorable stature of humanity and they started behaving like apes and swine (265). And they fell into becoming the slaves of TAGHOOT (tyrants and the priesthood of any religion 451). Such are in worse plight, and farther astray than the mockers.?
but about 6145 n 51 the word lahma is there which means meat there is no other way to translate it if there was the word khinzeerin we could have translate it in another way but lahme is there with khinzeerin whicih does not make it symbolic
now again about 55 does this mean there is contradiction/discrepancy in Al-Quran now yes there is a discripition of whicih is Hallal fot Jews in 6146 wut about Christens how do we know wut is forbidden n not forbidden for them the reallity is that Jews don,t eat Pig but the Christens do wut is u,r understanding infact i will wellcome any one who could explain this peace -
PEACE, NAXUS,
Peace all bro Priest Bokhme regarding verse 560 i will go with the QXP translation which is
560 Say, ?Shall I point out to you something much worse for retribution with Allah? Worse is the case of those whom Allah has rejected, and His Law of Requital hits them. And whom Allah?s Law relegated from the honorable stature of humanity and they started behaving like apes and swine (265). And they fell into becoming the slaves of TAGHOOT (tyrants and the priesthood of any religion 451). Such are in worse plight, and farther astray than the mockers.? but about 6145 n 51 the word lahma is there which means meat there is no other way to translate it if there was the word khinzeerin we could have translate it in another way but lahme is there with khinzeerin whicih does not make it symbolic
Lahma khanzeerin, in Al-Quran, does not mean pig, but "flesh that is seen as bad". Khanzeerin, according to The Dictionary of the Holy Quran, by Omar, is a compound term. So, khanzeerin, in all of the ayats in which we find this term, means...that which is "seen as bad".
now again about 55 does this mean there is contradiction/discrepancy in Al-Quran now yes there is a discripition of whicih is Hallal fot Jews in 6146 wut about Christens how do we know wut is forbidden n not forbidden for them the reallity is that Jews don,t eat Pig but the Christens do wut is u,r understanding infact i will wellcome any one who could explain this peace.
According to Al-Quran, the Jews were only forbidden to eat animals with claws and the fat of oxen amd sheep, except, that which adhered to the bones. With this in mind then, the Jews were never forbidden to eat swine, this is something which they imposed upon themselves
393 All food was lawful to the Children of Israel, except what Israel Made unlawful for itself, before the Law (of Moses) was revealed. Say "Bring ye the Law and study it, if ye be men of truth."
Allah, has made clear in Al-Quran that a party of the Jews tampered with the Law, hence, their not eating of pork is something which they invented/made a law. Ayat 6146 makes it absolutely clear what Allah forbade the Jews to eat. The question now is...do you believe Allah what Allah has said?
If one refuses to accept what Allah has stated, one becomes guilty of jibt/superstition
Main Entry SUPERSTITION/JIBT a notion maintained despite evidence to contrary a belief or practice resulting from ignorance or a false conception of causation.
Regarding the Christians eating pork, well, they have it right.
Looking forward to your reply.
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PEACE PRIEST_BOKMEI i,m not that knowledgeable in Arabic i see we r the only two person who is talking on this chapter now i have check the word khanzeerin on http//dictionary.sakhr.com/ n it still give me the meaning of Pork i guess we need a wider disscussion on that i,m opening a new thread so we can have a clear outcome thank u for u,r time peace
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PEACE, TANVEER, MD
IMHO...
"IMO" or "I THINK" are conjectural statements not statements of fact. The question is then...do you know for a fact that what you are following is the truth or not? When you and others say...in my opinion, are you stating fact/knowledge or are you guessing/conjecturing?
Looking forward to your reply.
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PEACE, TANVEER, MD
"IMO" or "I THINK" are conjectural statements not statements of fact. The question is then...do you know for a fact that what you are following is the truth or not? When you and others say...in my opinion, are you stating fact/knowledge or are you guessing/conjecturing?
Looking forward to your reply.
Are you enjoying your pig, Bokmei? There are other things on the menu too, free of charge, they are mentioned in the Qur'an.