Is Swine Hallal
-
Peace all,
This argument/discussion hinges upon flawed logic that is expanded upon in bro tanveer's post, I'll just add in summary
What's the deal then with the jews being allowed/not forbidden lahma khinzeerin and it's thus okay for all of us (in reality it is in blatant contradiction with many verses including 6147) when one does not accept lahma khinzeerin as pig meat? Because even IF lahma khinzeerin is not pig meat it's still HARAM to mankind which makes the former part of the argument inclusive of 6148 fall flat...
The real discussion and the only recourse, instead of focusing on flawed logic, is to PROVE that lahma khinzeerin is NOT pig meat...which is what has been done here many times with no conclusive results...this will be just another one of those attempts...
For more information on pork etc... please read this very interesting thread and the post by user David
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2074&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=150
I think it has been clearly shown by Shuaib, Sabo, Someone, and others that khanzeer cannot possibly mean ?bad meat I see? according to Arabic grammar, and I have not heard a single counter argument yet.
Even if we ignore the Arabic grammar (which I don?t), replacing ?pig? with ?bad/stinking/maggoty I see? doesn?t make any logical sense either.
6145 He has only forbidden you what dies of itself and blood and flesh of swine and that over which any other name than that of Allah has been invoked, but whoever is driven to necessity, not desiring nor exceeding the limit, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
Point 1
Why ?meat I see bad??
Why does it have to be seen?
Often we can tell meat is bad from its smell, rather than its looks.
Why not ?bad meat I smell??It doesn?t say ?carrion I see? or ?blood I see?.
Why doesn?t it just say ?bad meat??
Point 2
All things in the list can be eating without physical harm. One can eat
- what has died of itself
- blood
- flesh of pig
- having someone/something else?s name mentioned upon food
without physically harming themselves. We are allowed to eat these items under necessity as a mercy from God.
Under necessity, to me, means if one doesn?t have recourse to other food sources. Personally, I would need to be starving in such a case.
What is the effect of eating rotten/bad/maggoty meat? Wouldn?t it give someone food poisoning, or make them violently ill? When someone is under starvation (or even under normal conditions), couldn?t eating rotten/bad/maggoty meat kill the person?
Is eating rotten/maggoty meat supposed to be a mercy from God??
edited to add the meat to all the pigs
-
PEACE, TANVEER, MD,
According to your logic, Allah, per ayat 6148, specifically, mentions the Jews in regard to what food was made haram to them. 6148 also does not mention blood, dead meat and "what was dedicated to other than The God" as being haram for the Jews, so then are they also halal for mankind according to 57 ?...Let us not define anything but use the exact word "lahma khinzeerin", whatever it means in English, and not CONJECTURE to its meaning as you are doing. Given that nowhere in Al-Quran does Allah forbid the Jews to eat "lahma khinzeerin", hence, it was lawful to them, and ayat 57 states that their food and our food are halal for each other, lahma khinzeerin, then, whatever it means, has to be halal for mankind. But then that would contradict 6147; how would you resolve that contradiction ?
O.k., let me try it from this angle. You will agree that Al-Quran, per ayat 2185, was sent to all of mankind for guidance; there is no other book or books for mankinds guidance. Included in mankind are the Jews. I'm certain that you also agree with that. Now, although ayat 6147 does not mention the Jews specifically, ayat 6147 does mention what is haram for mankind--the Jews included, thus, the things made haram in ayat 6147 are haram for the Jews as well. I'm certain you must agree with this also. Also keep in mind that, it would be very cumbersome to list all that is halal in Al-Quran, hence, Allah, simply names what is haram and what is not haram is halal. With this in mind then there is no contradiction between ayats 6146-7 and 148 at all.
Let's continue.
6148 AND for the Jews We have forbidden all that have claws; and from the cattle and the sheep We forbade their fat except what is attached to the back, or entrails, or mixed with bone. That is a punishment for their rebellion, and We are truthful.
53 Forbidden to you (for food) are dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine, and that on which hath been invoked the name of other than Allah. that which hath been killed by strangling, or by a violent blow, or by a headlong fall, or by being gored to death; that which hath been (partly) eaten by a wild animal; unless ye are able to slaughter it (in due form); that which is sacrificed on stone (altars); (forbidden) also is the division (of meat) by raffling with arrows that is impiety...
55 This day are (all) things good and pure made lawful unto you. The food of the People of the Book is lawful unto you and yours is lawful unto them...
Lahma khinzerin does not mean the the pig is haram to eat, but that any flesh "seen as bad" is haram to eat. We must agree that, Allah, chooses His Words with care. With this in mind then, lahma/flesh and shahama/fat are totally different terms, hence, the fat of the pig and products made from its hoof, both not being flesh/lahma, are then halal to eat. Remember now, Allah, forbade the Jews to eat the shahama/fat of the sheep and oxen, except that which adhered to their bones. Allah, however, does not say shahama/fat khinzerin is haram, hence, the fat of the pig must be halal. Likewise, He does not forbid the eating of the products made from the hoofs of the pig. Do you also believe that Allah actually turned human beings into khinzerin? In your responses, you have not dealt with these arguments, please do in your next response.
What you refuse to accept is that, per ayat 6148, Allah, tells humanity EXACTLY what He made haram to the Jews regarding food and aya 53 tells us EXACTLY what Allah has made haram for ALL of mankind--the Jews included. Allah, then goes on tell us how the Jews made other things unlawful to themselves on their own.
Finally, given that lahma khinzerin cannot mean the pig and the Jews, according to ayat 6148, were not forbidden to eat pig, then for muslims to maintain that the pig is haram to eat , contradicts ayat ayat 55.
It is time now for you to either agree with the definitions for lahma and shahama or reject them. Please provide the source for your definitions.
Looking forward to your reply as always.
-
Salaamun Alaikum all in Islam,
A new thought for all to have a new look shock
6146
And to those who were Jews We made unlawful every animal having claws, and of oxen and sheep We made unlawful to them the fat of both, except such as was on their backs or the entrails or what was mixed with bones this was a punishment We gave them on account of their rebellion, and We are surely Truthful. 6146
Please look at the word "HAADOO" is that really means "JEWS"?
If so, then what is the difference between 6146 and 551?
551
O you who believe, do not take the Jews and the Nazarenes as allies, for they are allies to one another; and whoever takes them as such from amongst you is one of them. God does not guide the wicked people. 551
I am sure Allah know how to say "Yahood".Anyway, this is a dought came into my mind, correct me if you find me wrong.
May Allah open your hearts to understand the Truth.
Regards,
MMKhan
-
Peace Priest Bokmei,
I see that you have refused yet again to answer my question and are eluding the point I am trying to make. Instead you are directing my attention to another point that I am not discussing right now. What "lahma khinzeerin" means does not make any difference to the point I am trying to make. Sister Nadia's post mentioning what David wrote has dealt with that aspect.
Please focus on the point I am trying to bring to your attention and please answer my question so that the discussion can progress. In my discussion, I am not going to translate "lahma khinzeerin" for now, but use the exact word, so there is no conjecture. Let me repeat
6148 does not mention blood, dead meat and "what was dedicated to other than The God" as being haram for the Jews, so then are they also halal for mankind according to 57 ?
Please answer this question and stop eluding this. I asked you this question first, so you should have the courtesy to reply to this question before expecting me to answer your questions.
Given that Allah makes no mention in 6148 of the Jews being forbidden to eat blood, dead meat, and "what is dedicated to other than Allah", how is blood, dead meat, and "what is dedicated to other than Allah" forbidden then ? And if they are not forbidden to Jews, then how can they be forbidden to mankind per 57 ? But then that would clearly contradict 6147.
Given that Allah, in 6148, does not forbid the Jews to eat lahma khinzeerin, hence, according to you it was lawful to them, and ayat 57 states that their food and our food are halal for each other, lahma khinzeerin, then, whatever it means, has to be halal for mankind. But then that would contradict 6147; how would you resolve that contradiction ?
Now, although ayat 6147 does not mention the Jews specifically, ayat 6147 does mention what is haram for mankind--the Jews included, thus, the things made haram in ayat 6147 are haram for the Jews as well. I'm certain you must agree with this also. Also keep in mind that, it would be very cumbersome to list all that is halal in Al-Quran, hence, Allah, simply names what is haram and what is not haram is halal. With this in mind then there is no contradiction between ayats 6146-7 and 148 at all.
Agreed. (Finally, looks like the light is dawning on you D , that is what I have been trying to tell you all along !) Your supposed/presumed contradiction is created due to your faulty understanding of 6148 and your flawed logic.
6148 is clearly a continuation of 6147 because of the word "and" (no implications, just a fact). That clearly shows that what is made haram to Jews in 6148 is IN ADDITION TO what is made haram for all mankind (including Jews) in 6147 ( as you have already agreed) and that is the punishment for Jews for their rebellion.
According to your faulty logic however, blood, dead meat, and "what is dedicated to other than Allah would be halal for Jews, as 6148 does not make them haram for Jews. But when you look at 6147 and 6148 together
6147 Say "I do not find in what is inspired to me forbidden except that it be already dead, or blood, or lahma khinzeerin, for it is foul; or what is corruptly dedicated to other than God." Whoever is forced without seeking disobedience or transgression, then your Lord is Forgiving, Merciful.
6148 AND for the Jews We have forbidden all that have claws; and from the cattle and the sheep We forbade their fat except what is attached to the back, or entrails, or mixed with bone. That is a punishment for their rebellion, and We are truthful.the list of haram food FOR THE JEWS would be as follows
- Already dead
- Blood
- Lahma khinzeerin
- What is dedicated to other than Allah
- All that have claws
- Fat of cattle and sheep except what is attached to back, entrails, or mixed with bone.
ALL OF THE ABOVE WERE MADE HARAM FOR JEWS. 1-4 haram for mankind. 1-6 haram for Jews (5 and 6 haram only for Jews in addition to 1-4 as a punishment for their rebellion).
When you keep this in mind, 57 becomes very clear, and there is NO CONTRADICTION between 6147, 6148, and 57.
57 Today, the good things have been made lawful to you, and the food of those who have been given the Scripture is lawful for you, and your food is lawful for them;
Food of Jews (people of scripture) = everything except 1-6 mentioned above = lawful for mankind
Mankind's food = everything except 1-4 mentioned above = lawful for Jews (them) (the 5 and 6 were made lawful for them by Allah through Jesus)
Therefore NO CONTRADICTION. Q.E.D.
Lahma khinzerin does not mean the the pig is haram to eat, but that any flesh "seen as bad" is haram to eat. We must agree that, Allah, chooses His Words with care. With this in mind then, lahma/flesh and shahama/fat are totally different terms, hence, the fat of the pig and products made from its hoof, both not being flesh/lahma, are then halal to eat. Remember now, Allah, forbade the Jews to eat the shahama/fat of the sheep and oxen, except that which adhered to their bones. Allah, however, does not say shahama/fat khinzerin is haram, hence, the fat of the pig must be halal.
Agreed. That seems to be the only logical conclusion.
For my above mentioned points however, IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT "LAHMA KHINZEERIN" MEANS.
Do you also believe that Allah actually turned human beings into khinzerin?
If Allah says He turned humans into "khanazeer" then of course He did (do you deny the word of Allah ?). Now what "khanazeer" means in 563, I have yet to figure out. I need to do more research and discussion before I can say what "khanazeer" means in 563 with certainty.
563 Say "Shall I inform you of worse than this as a punishment from God? Those whom God cursed and became angry at them, and He made from them apes and khanazeer and servants of evil. Those have a worst place and are more astray from the right path."
To me, "apes and khanazeer" could be an idiom, meaning bad looking or ugly people. Just like the English usage "His animal passions caused him trouble", or "he is an animal".
That is just my opinion, though, at this time, and in no way I am saying that Allah means that (just to make it clear to you, that I am not trying to invent and ascribe to Allah what He did not say). As of now, I do not know exactly what "khanazeer" means in 563, and I would appreciate if someone with deep grasp and knowledge of Arabic language and grammar can clarify that for us.
I will put the same question back to you. Do you believe that Allah actually turned human beings into apes ?
Looking forward to your reply, and the answer to my question that I have been asking you over and over without any answer from you.
6148 does not mention blood, dead meat and "what was dedicated to other than The God" as being haram for the Jews, so then are they also halal for mankind according to 57 ?
-
Peace all,
I just went through the thread Pork & Logic at the following link
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2074&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=150
The argument that it means pig meat in 6147 is based on the words being "lahma alkhinzeerin", saying that when a word has "al" at its beginning it cannot be an adjective. 6147 however does not say "lahma alkhinzeerin" but it says "lahma khinzeerin" without the "al". "Lahma khinzeerin" then could still mean "bad/dirty meat" and it can also mean "pig meat". Which meaning is the correct meaning in 6148 ?
Maybe for it to mean "bad/dirty meat" it should be "lahmoun khinzeerin" and not "lahma khinzeerin"
Can anyone with good knowledge of Arabic and its grammar comment on that please ?
-
Peace mmkhan,
Please look at the word "HAADOO" is that really means "JEWS"?
If so, then what is the difference between 6146 and 551?
According to Dictionary of Holy Quran by Abdul Mannan Omar
HAADOO (prf. 3rd. p. m. plu.) Who are Judaised.
YAHOODI Jew, JudaisedSo, no difference between 6146 and 551
-
Peace all,
Through private discussion with my brothers and sisters in islam lillah, and applying logic, it has become abundantly clear to me that "lahma khinzeerin" in context of 6147 has to mean "meat of pig", and not "bad/dirty/rotten meat".
Why would anyone eat bad/dirty/rotten meat anyway ?; one would be foolish to do that, because it can cause food poisoning causing one to get violently ill and possibly die. It does not make any sense to forbid something that no one in their right mind would eat anyway. It would not make any sense, also, to allow someone to eat bad/dirty/rotten meat when they are forced e.g. in case of starvation, because that is going to make one violently sick and die.
Allah saying don't eat bad/dirty/rotten meat because it is foul would be redundant.
The only meaning of "lahma khinzeerin" that would be logical and make sense in the context of 6147 would be "meat of pig".
I am doubtful that the word structure "lahma khinzeerin" even permits it to be translated as "bad/dirty/rotten meat" because the words for "bad/dirty meat" in arabic should be "lahmoun khinzeerin" and not "lahma khinzeerin".
-
SaLaM Tanveermd
I agree with you (you know it looks like we will be friends afterall). "lahma khinzeerin" literally means meat of the pig. Lahma = meat and Khinzeerin = pig.
PRIEST
O.k., let me try it from this angle. You will agree that Al-Quran, per ayat 2185, was sent to all of mankind for guidance; there is no other book or books for mankinds guidance. Included in mankind are the Jews.
The jews also got a Torah ALL to themselves. Why do u keep forgetting that?
-
Peace all,
In the same thread
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2074&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=150
In sis Marie's post
6145
Say ?I do not find in what is inspired to me forbidden except that it be already dead, or blood, or the meat of pig, for it is foul (rijsun) ; or what is corruptly (fisqan) dedicated to other than God.? Whoever is forced without seeking disobedience or transgression, then your Lord is Forgiving, Merciful. (6145)In bro Wakas' post
Root of 'rijsun'
Ra-Jiim-Siin = state of commotion, confuse greatly, make a noise/sound, hinder/prevent, unclean/dirty/filthy, evil, something which is unlawful/forbidden, unbelief/infidelity/doubt.
Thus bad/dirty meat is called unclean/dirty/filthy...redundancy anyone?
Or
Thus bad/dirty meat is called unlawful/forbidden...redundancy anyone?
edited to add the underlines
-
Deu 148 "And the swine because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean (tame') unto you"
tame' - foul, defiled, polluted, unclean.
The scripture tells us exactly why swine/pig is unlawful, it is because it is unclean/polluted/foul . Medical science has also proved that pig meat is unclean and the cause of many diseases (ie cancer etc)
-
PEACE, TANVEER, and ALL,
Through private discussion with my brothers and sisters in islam lillah, and applying logic, it has become abundantly clear to me that "lahma khinzeerin" in context of 6147 has to mean "meat of pig", and not "bad/dirty/rotten meat".
6146 For those who followed the Jewish Law, We forbade every (animal) with undivided hoof, and We forbade them that fat of the ox and the sheep, except what adheres to their backs or their entrails, or is mixed up with a bone this in recompense for their wilful disobedience for We are true (in Our ordinances).
53 Forbidden to you (for food) are dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine...
55 This day are (all) things good and pure made lawful unto you. The food of the People of the Book is lawful unto you and yours is lawful unto them...
Well, now we are getting somewhere at last!! If lahma khinzerin means the "meat of pig", according to you/others
-
Then it must be halal for Muslims to use the fat and hooves of the pig for food, because those things are not meat, correct?
-
If lahma khinzerin means "meat of pigs", then, Allah, actually turned human beings into "pig meat" beings. Is this really your position?
-
Lahma khinzerin cannot mean two different things in Allah's Quran, for that would constitute an impossibility...a discrepancy within Al-Quran.
-
In ayat 6146, Allah, is simply informing mankind EXACTLY what He had forbidden the Jews to eat PRIOR to the coming of the Messenger Jesus and The Last Messenger/Al-Quran. If lahma khinzerin means the "meat of pigs", as you and the others who you are in communication with claim, then where in Al-Quran can I find the ayat where Allah forbade the Jews to eat the "meat of pigs", because it certainly aint in ayat 6146? D Please post that ayat, thanks.
-
If Allah didn't make the "meat of pigs" haram for Jews, then, ayat 55 definitely means our food and the food of the Jews (swine included), are halal for each other, because the Jews were never forbidden to eat it in the first place!
-
With item #5 in mind then, lahma khinzerin cannot possibly mean the meat of pigs, period.
-
Once you defined lahma khinzerin as the..."meat of pig", you proved my point, thanks! You have no argument. D
This logic is sound, Tanveer and Others.
-
-
Peace all,
- If lahma khinzerin means "meat of pigs", then, Allah, actually turned human beings into "pig meat" beings. Is this really your position?
Transliteration 560
Qul hal onabbi-okum bisharrin min thalika mathoobatan AAinda Allahi man laAAanahu Allahu waghadiba AAalayhi wajaAAala minhumu alqiradata waalkhanazeera waAAabada alttaghooti ola-ika sharrun makanan waadallu AAan sawa-i alssabeeli
There unfortunately, is no lahm(meat) in 560, there is just khanazeera.
Transliteration 6145
Qul la ajidu feema oohiya ilayya muharraman AAala taAAimin yatAAamuhu illa an yakoona maytatan aw daman masfoohan aw lahma khinzeerin fa-innahu rijsun aw fisqan ohilla lighayri Allahi bihi famani idturra ghayra baghin wala AAadin fa-inna rabbaka ghafoorun raheemun
There is, however, lahm in 6145 and the others...
-
PEACE, JAXAL,
I agree with you (you know it looks like we will be friends afterall). "lahma khinzeerin" literally means meat of the pig. Lahma = meat and Khinzeerin = pig.
Well, if you agree with Tanveer, then, please respond to the my last post to him.
PRIEST O.k., let me try it from this angle. You will agree that Al-Quran, per ayat 2185, was sent to all of mankind for guidance; there is no other book or books for mankinds guidance. Included in mankind are the Jews.
The jews also got a Torah ALL to themselves. Why do u keep forgetting that?
Hmmm...so, according to you, the Jews are not required, as is the rest of mankind, to follow Al-Quran only and alone for Guidance, is this really your position?
-
PEACE, TO ALL,
Is it your postions that, Allah, in ayat 560, turned human beings into actual pigs?? If so, what is your proof for this?
-
SaLaM PB
God specifically told us not to eat the PIG OF MEAT in this verse. I give you both the transliteration and the english translation ( the words bolded are to be read very very very carefully wink )
Innama harrama AAalaykumu almaytata waalddama walahma alkhinzeeri wama ohilla bihi lighayri Allahi famani idturra ghayra baghin wala AAadin fala ithma AAalayhi inna Allaha ghafoorun raheemun
He has only forbidden for you what is already dead, and the blood, and the meat of pig, and what was dedicated to other than God. Whoever finds himself forced out of need and without disobedience or animosity, then there is no sin upon him. God is Forgiving, Merciful.
Hmmm...so, according to you, the Jews are not required, as is the rest of mankind, to follow Al-Quran only and alone for Guidance, is this really your position?
PLZ answer this PRIEST Are WE required to follow either the Torah or the Bible? And yes they are. http//www.geocities.com/bigjaxal/s1.gif
-
Peace, to all
Is it your postions that, Allah, in ayat 560, turned human beings into actual pigs?? If so, what is your proof for this?
Address your erroneous point number 2 please.
-
PEACE, TANVEER,
Btw, you must stop, relative to Allah, giving your opinion, as well as, following opinion. Allah, in ayats 733 and 1736, forbids this. Opinion making/following opinion, relative to Allah, bottomline, is ascribing a lie to him.
What say you?
-
Peace, to all
Is it your postions that, Allah, in ayat 560, turned human beings into actual pigs?? If so, what is your proof for this?
Address your erroneous point number 2 please.
LOL! It's your erroneous position, so...you address it.
-
PEACE, JAXAL,
God specifically told us not to eat the PIG OF MEAT in this verse. I give you both the transliteration and the english translation ( the words bolded are to be read very very very carefully wink )
Are you certain that...the translation of lahma khinzerin...is correct? wink If so, what is your source?
Hmmm...so, according to you, the Jews are not required, as is the rest of mankind, to follow Al-Quran only and alone for Guidance, is this really your position?
PLZ answer this PRIEST Are WE required to follow either the Torah or the Bible? And yes they are. http//www.geocities.com/bigjaxal/s1.gif
No, mankind is commanded to obey Al-Quran/follow its Guidance
8421 And when the Quran is recited to them they do not make obeisance?
2185 The month of Ramazan is that in which the Quran was revealed, a guidance to men and clear proofs of the guidance and the distinction