Is Swine Hallal
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Peace all,
I just went through the thread Pork & Logic at the following link
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2074&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=150
The argument that it means pig meat in 6147 is based on the words being "lahma alkhinzeerin", saying that when a word has "al" at its beginning it cannot be an adjective. 6147 however does not say "lahma alkhinzeerin" but it says "lahma khinzeerin" without the "al". "Lahma khinzeerin" then could still mean "bad/dirty meat" and it can also mean "pig meat". Which meaning is the correct meaning in 6148 ?
Maybe for it to mean "bad/dirty meat" it should be "lahmoun khinzeerin" and not "lahma khinzeerin"
Can anyone with good knowledge of Arabic and its grammar comment on that please ?
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Peace mmkhan,
Please look at the word "HAADOO" is that really means "JEWS"?
If so, then what is the difference between 6146 and 551?
According to Dictionary of Holy Quran by Abdul Mannan Omar
HAADOO (prf. 3rd. p. m. plu.) Who are Judaised.
YAHOODI Jew, JudaisedSo, no difference between 6146 and 551
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Peace all,
Through private discussion with my brothers and sisters in islam lillah, and applying logic, it has become abundantly clear to me that "lahma khinzeerin" in context of 6147 has to mean "meat of pig", and not "bad/dirty/rotten meat".
Why would anyone eat bad/dirty/rotten meat anyway ?; one would be foolish to do that, because it can cause food poisoning causing one to get violently ill and possibly die. It does not make any sense to forbid something that no one in their right mind would eat anyway. It would not make any sense, also, to allow someone to eat bad/dirty/rotten meat when they are forced e.g. in case of starvation, because that is going to make one violently sick and die.
Allah saying don't eat bad/dirty/rotten meat because it is foul would be redundant.
The only meaning of "lahma khinzeerin" that would be logical and make sense in the context of 6147 would be "meat of pig".
I am doubtful that the word structure "lahma khinzeerin" even permits it to be translated as "bad/dirty/rotten meat" because the words for "bad/dirty meat" in arabic should be "lahmoun khinzeerin" and not "lahma khinzeerin".
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SaLaM Tanveermd
I agree with you (you know it looks like we will be friends afterall). "lahma khinzeerin" literally means meat of the pig. Lahma = meat and Khinzeerin = pig.
PRIEST
O.k., let me try it from this angle. You will agree that Al-Quran, per ayat 2185, was sent to all of mankind for guidance; there is no other book or books for mankinds guidance. Included in mankind are the Jews.
The jews also got a Torah ALL to themselves. Why do u keep forgetting that?
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Peace all,
In the same thread
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2074&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=150
In sis Marie's post
6145
Say ?I do not find in what is inspired to me forbidden except that it be already dead, or blood, or the meat of pig, for it is foul (rijsun) ; or what is corruptly (fisqan) dedicated to other than God.? Whoever is forced without seeking disobedience or transgression, then your Lord is Forgiving, Merciful. (6145)In bro Wakas' post
Root of 'rijsun'
Ra-Jiim-Siin = state of commotion, confuse greatly, make a noise/sound, hinder/prevent, unclean/dirty/filthy, evil, something which is unlawful/forbidden, unbelief/infidelity/doubt.
Thus bad/dirty meat is called unclean/dirty/filthy...redundancy anyone?
Or
Thus bad/dirty meat is called unlawful/forbidden...redundancy anyone?
edited to add the underlines
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Deu 148 "And the swine because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean (tame') unto you"
tame' - foul, defiled, polluted, unclean.
The scripture tells us exactly why swine/pig is unlawful, it is because it is unclean/polluted/foul . Medical science has also proved that pig meat is unclean and the cause of many diseases (ie cancer etc)
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PEACE, TANVEER, and ALL,
Through private discussion with my brothers and sisters in islam lillah, and applying logic, it has become abundantly clear to me that "lahma khinzeerin" in context of 6147 has to mean "meat of pig", and not "bad/dirty/rotten meat".
6146 For those who followed the Jewish Law, We forbade every (animal) with undivided hoof, and We forbade them that fat of the ox and the sheep, except what adheres to their backs or their entrails, or is mixed up with a bone this in recompense for their wilful disobedience for We are true (in Our ordinances).
53 Forbidden to you (for food) are dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine...
55 This day are (all) things good and pure made lawful unto you. The food of the People of the Book is lawful unto you and yours is lawful unto them...
Well, now we are getting somewhere at last!! If lahma khinzerin means the "meat of pig", according to you/others
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Then it must be halal for Muslims to use the fat and hooves of the pig for food, because those things are not meat, correct?
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If lahma khinzerin means "meat of pigs", then, Allah, actually turned human beings into "pig meat" beings. Is this really your position?
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Lahma khinzerin cannot mean two different things in Allah's Quran, for that would constitute an impossibility...a discrepancy within Al-Quran.
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In ayat 6146, Allah, is simply informing mankind EXACTLY what He had forbidden the Jews to eat PRIOR to the coming of the Messenger Jesus and The Last Messenger/Al-Quran. If lahma khinzerin means the "meat of pigs", as you and the others who you are in communication with claim, then where in Al-Quran can I find the ayat where Allah forbade the Jews to eat the "meat of pigs", because it certainly aint in ayat 6146? D Please post that ayat, thanks.
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If Allah didn't make the "meat of pigs" haram for Jews, then, ayat 55 definitely means our food and the food of the Jews (swine included), are halal for each other, because the Jews were never forbidden to eat it in the first place!
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With item #5 in mind then, lahma khinzerin cannot possibly mean the meat of pigs, period.
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Once you defined lahma khinzerin as the..."meat of pig", you proved my point, thanks! You have no argument. D
This logic is sound, Tanveer and Others.
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Peace all,
- If lahma khinzerin means "meat of pigs", then, Allah, actually turned human beings into "pig meat" beings. Is this really your position?
Transliteration 560
Qul hal onabbi-okum bisharrin min thalika mathoobatan AAinda Allahi man laAAanahu Allahu waghadiba AAalayhi wajaAAala minhumu alqiradata waalkhanazeera waAAabada alttaghooti ola-ika sharrun makanan waadallu AAan sawa-i alssabeeli
There unfortunately, is no lahm(meat) in 560, there is just khanazeera.
Transliteration 6145
Qul la ajidu feema oohiya ilayya muharraman AAala taAAimin yatAAamuhu illa an yakoona maytatan aw daman masfoohan aw lahma khinzeerin fa-innahu rijsun aw fisqan ohilla lighayri Allahi bihi famani idturra ghayra baghin wala AAadin fa-inna rabbaka ghafoorun raheemun
There is, however, lahm in 6145 and the others...
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PEACE, JAXAL,
I agree with you (you know it looks like we will be friends afterall). "lahma khinzeerin" literally means meat of the pig. Lahma = meat and Khinzeerin = pig.
Well, if you agree with Tanveer, then, please respond to the my last post to him.
PRIEST O.k., let me try it from this angle. You will agree that Al-Quran, per ayat 2185, was sent to all of mankind for guidance; there is no other book or books for mankinds guidance. Included in mankind are the Jews.
The jews also got a Torah ALL to themselves. Why do u keep forgetting that?
Hmmm...so, according to you, the Jews are not required, as is the rest of mankind, to follow Al-Quran only and alone for Guidance, is this really your position?
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PEACE, TO ALL,
Is it your postions that, Allah, in ayat 560, turned human beings into actual pigs?? If so, what is your proof for this?
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SaLaM PB
God specifically told us not to eat the PIG OF MEAT in this verse. I give you both the transliteration and the english translation ( the words bolded are to be read very very very carefully wink )
Innama harrama AAalaykumu almaytata waalddama walahma alkhinzeeri wama ohilla bihi lighayri Allahi famani idturra ghayra baghin wala AAadin fala ithma AAalayhi inna Allaha ghafoorun raheemun
He has only forbidden for you what is already dead, and the blood, and the meat of pig, and what was dedicated to other than God. Whoever finds himself forced out of need and without disobedience or animosity, then there is no sin upon him. God is Forgiving, Merciful.
Hmmm...so, according to you, the Jews are not required, as is the rest of mankind, to follow Al-Quran only and alone for Guidance, is this really your position?
PLZ answer this PRIEST Are WE required to follow either the Torah or the Bible? And yes they are. http//www.geocities.com/bigjaxal/s1.gif
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Peace, to all
Is it your postions that, Allah, in ayat 560, turned human beings into actual pigs?? If so, what is your proof for this?
Address your erroneous point number 2 please.
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PEACE, TANVEER,
Btw, you must stop, relative to Allah, giving your opinion, as well as, following opinion. Allah, in ayats 733 and 1736, forbids this. Opinion making/following opinion, relative to Allah, bottomline, is ascribing a lie to him.
What say you?
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Peace, to all
Is it your postions that, Allah, in ayat 560, turned human beings into actual pigs?? If so, what is your proof for this?
Address your erroneous point number 2 please.
LOL! It's your erroneous position, so...you address it.
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PEACE, JAXAL,
God specifically told us not to eat the PIG OF MEAT in this verse. I give you both the transliteration and the english translation ( the words bolded are to be read very very very carefully wink )
Are you certain that...the translation of lahma khinzerin...is correct? wink If so, what is your source?
Hmmm...so, according to you, the Jews are not required, as is the rest of mankind, to follow Al-Quran only and alone for Guidance, is this really your position?
PLZ answer this PRIEST Are WE required to follow either the Torah or the Bible? And yes they are. http//www.geocities.com/bigjaxal/s1.gif
No, mankind is commanded to obey Al-Quran/follow its Guidance
8421 And when the Quran is recited to them they do not make obeisance?
2185 The month of Ramazan is that in which the Quran was revealed, a guidance to men and clear proofs of the guidance and the distinction
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LOL! It's your erroneous position, so...you address it.
LOL! How soon we forget...to refresh your memory
- If lahma khinzerin means "meat of pigs", then, Allah, actually turned human beings into "pig meat" beings. Is this really your position?
Transliteration 560
Qul hal onabbi-okum bisharrin min thalika mathoobatan AAinda Allahi man laAAanahu Allahu waghadiba AAalayhi wajaAAala minhumu alqiradata waalkhanazeera waAAabada alttaghooti ola-ika sharrun makanan waadallu AAan sawa-i alssabeeli
There unfortunately, is no lahm(meat) in 560, there is just khanazeera.
Transliteration 6145
Qul la ajidu feema oohiya ilayya muharraman AAala taAAimin yatAAamuhu illa an yakoona maytatan aw daman masfoohan aw lahma khinzeerin fa-innahu rijsun aw fisqan ohilla lighayri Allahi bihi famani idturra ghayra baghin wala AAadin fa-inna rabbaka ghafoorun raheemun
There is, however, lahm in 6145 and the others...
Lahma khanzeerin means meat of pig...khanazeera is the pig.
When reading 560, the meaning of the context is gauged by the literal words used...thats what is meant by metaphorical roll Just because pig is used doesn't mean the humans literally turned into pigs...the context determines that, NOT the literal words used. Pig is a pig how they turned is upto you...whether it is a literal or metaphorical turning is irrelevant to this discussion of pig and it's meat.
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PEACE, JAXAL,
SaLaM PB
Are you certain that...the translation of lahma khinzerin...is correct? Wink If so, what is your source?
My source? maybe becoz i know arabic ? roll
Well, if you know Arabic, then, answer the following points
6146 For those who followed the Jewish Law, We forbade every (animal) with undivided hoof, and We forbade them that fat of the ox and the sheep, except what adheres to their backs or their entrails, or is mixed up with a bone this in recompense for their wilful disobedience for We are true (in Our ordinances).
53 Forbidden to you (for food) are dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine...
55 This day are (all) things good and pure made lawful unto you. The food of the People of the Book is lawful unto you and yours is lawful unto them...
Well, now we are getting somewhere at last!! If lahma khinzerin means the "meat of pig", according to you/others
-
Then it must be halal for Muslims to use the fat and hooves of the pig for food, because those things are not meat, correct?
-
If lahma khinzerin means "meat of pigs", then, Allah, actually turned human beings into "pig meat" beings. Is this really your position?
-
Lahma khinzerin cannot mean two different things in Allah's Quran, for that would constitute an impossibility...a discrepancy within Al-Quran.
-
In ayat 6146, Allah, is simply informing mankind EXACTLY what He had forbidden the Jews to eat PRIOR to the coming of the Messenger Jesus and The Last Messenger/Al-Quran. If lahma khinzerin means the "meat of pigs", as you and the others who you are in communication with claim, then where in Al-Quran can I find the ayat where Allah forbade the Jews to eat the "meat of pigs", because it certainly aint in ayat 6146? D Please post that ayat, thanks.
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If Allah didn't make the "meat of pigs" haram for Jews, then, ayat 55 definitely means our food and the food of the Jews (swine included), are halal for each other, because the Jews were never forbidden to eat it in the first place!
No opinion...just Quranic facts, thanks.
Looking forward to your reply.
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SaLaM PB
Im really supprised at your response brother. But in addition to what i said earlier, here is ur proof.
U said in ur post
- .... then where in Al-Quran can I find the ayat where Allah forbade the Jews to eat the "meat of pigs", because it certainly aint in ayat 6146? Very Happy Please post that ayat, thanks.
This you answered as well
No, mankind is commanded to obey Al-Quran/follow its Guidance.
Then u asked
- If Allah didn't make the "meat of pigs" haram for Jews, then, ayat 55 definitely means our food and the food of the Jews (swine included), are halal for each other, because the Jews were never forbidden to eat it in the first place!
The answer
No, mankind is commanded to obey Al-Quran/follow its Guidance.
So in your defination of mankind, jews are not included? What kind of mankind is that?
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LOL! It's your erroneous position, so...you address it.
LOL! How soon we forget...to refresh your memory
- If lahma khinzerin means "meat of pigs", then, Allah, actually turned human beings into "pig meat" beings. Is this really your position?
Transliteration 560
Qul hal onabbi-okum bisharrin min thalika mathoobatan AAinda Allahi man laAAanahu Allahu waghadiba AAalayhi wajaAAala minhumu alqiradata waalkhanazeera waAAabada alttaghooti ola-ika sharrun makanan waadallu AAan sawa-i alssabeeli
There unfortunately, is no lahm(meat) in 560, there is just khanazeera.
Transliteration 6145
Qul la ajidu feema oohiya ilayya muharraman AAala taAAimin yatAAamuhu illa an yakoona maytatan aw daman masfoohan aw lahma khinzeerin fa-innahu rijsun aw fisqan ohilla lighayri Allahi bihi famani idturra ghayra baghin wala AAadin fa-inna rabbaka ghafoorun raheemun
There is, however, lahm in 6145 and the others...
Lahma khanzeerin means meat of pig...khanazeera is the pig.
When reading 560, the meaning of the context is gauged by the literal words used...thats what is meant by metaphorical roll Just because pig is used doesn't mean the humans literally turned into pigs...the context determines that, NOT the literal words used. Pig is a pig how they turned is upto you...whether it is a literal or metaphorical turning is irrelevant to this discussion of pig and it's meat.
How do you know 560 is metaphorical, does Allah say that it is a metaphor/similitude? What is your Quranic "gauge" for determining the difference? Regardless, lahma khinzerin cannot be the flesh of pig...and that is a fact. If not, then, by all means, provide your Quranic proof. Tanveer, was not able to do so. Perhaps you will fare better. Here
6146 For those who followed the Jewish Law, We forbade every (animal) with undivided hoof, and We forbade them that fat of the ox and the sheep, except what adheres to their backs or their entrails, or is mixed up with a bone this in recompense for their wilful disobedience for We are true (in Our ordinances).
53 Forbidden to you (for food) are dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine...
55 This day are (all) things good and pure made lawful unto you. The food of the People of the Book is lawful unto you and yours is lawful unto them...
Well, now we are getting somewhere at last!! If lahma khinzerin means the "meat of pig", according to you/others
-
Then it must be halal for Muslims to use the fat and hooves of the pig for food, because those things are not meat, correct?
-
If lahma khinzerin means "meat of pigs", then, Allah, actually turned human beings into "pig meat" beings. Is this really your position? (UNDER DISCUSSION)
-
Lahma khinzerin cannot mean two different things in Allah's Quran, for that would constitute an impossibility...a discrepancy within Al-Quran. (UNDER DISCUSSION)
-
In ayat 6146, Allah, is simply informing mankind EXACTLY what He had forbidden the Jews to eat PRIOR to the coming of the Messenger Jesus and The Last Messenger/Al-Quran. If lahma khinzerin means the "meat of pigs", as you and the others who you are in communication with claim, then where in Al-Quran can I find the ayat where Allah forbade the Jews to eat the "meat of pigs", because it certainly aint in ayat 6146? D Please post that ayat, thanks.
-
If Allah didn't make the "meat of pigs" haram for Jews, then, ayat 55 definitely means our food and the food of the Jews (swine included), are halal for each other, because the Jews were never forbidden to eat it in the first place!
Take your time. wink