Is Love an Illusion?
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Salaam Br Lote-Tree,
I agree that love can differ from person to person and that love is a state of mind.
I'm often in love with many things not only humans lolYou seems to be so romantic Lote lol
Peace
Sis MajidahBut are we not all Romantic?
Do we not all want that special someone to sweep us away in a joyous embrace and transform us into a swarm of multi-coloured butterflies that dance in the gentle summer breeze or into a shower of cool summer rain that kisses the velvety petals of tulips and daffidils in the Swedish countryside?Regards,
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Peace all,
Sorry, but I'm tired and I can't really be bothered reading the whole of this thread, so I'm going to put my 5 cents worth.
In my opinion love is an illusion.
From a atheist/scientific point of view, companionship is done purely on the basis of survival of the fittest. Yes even 'love' of children has to do with survival of the fittest.
Even the feeling of 'love' of God can be labeled as surviving the test.
You're preserving your genetics/self.
I'd rather people use the term, realisation of God's existence rather than "love" of God.
Love decays, dies, it can very easily be manipulated (believe me done it plenty of times before).
I won't reveal too much but I'll define love as an economic supply/demand curve.
wink
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Hello Elena,
Lote Tree, would you like to include in your thread the different views of love from different beliefs, say Sikhism, Buddhism, etc? If, please, share what you all know about that.
I prefer to hear what people have to say about love first and try to understand their perspective. May be later we can discuss how different faith percieve Love in all its aspect...
Regards,
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From a atheist/scientific point of view, companionship is done purely on the basis of survival of the fittest.
Really? How does unrequited Love have any survival value?
And why would the healthy love the ill or the deseased? Where is the survival value in that?Even honest atheist can't discount love! -)
Love seems to go beyond mere survival value.
You can even bleed and die joyfully for love...Regards,
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From a atheist/scientific point of view, companionship is done purely on the basis of survival of the fittest.
Really? How does unrequited Love have any survival value?
And why would the healthy love the ill or the deseased? Where is the survival value in that?Even honest atheist can't discount love! -)
Love seems to go beyond mere survival value.
You can even bleed and die joyfully for love...Regards,
I agree with esimsek on love being an adaptation for survival.
If you love someone of the opposite sex, chances are you will have kids with her/him, and also takes good care of her/him and your children. That makes good sense for survival. You help your genes by protecting your children.
If the healthy loves the ill in a social group, they help the ill individuals survive. These people may reciprocate by taking care of their companion when it's their turn to be healthy and their companion to be ill. Reciprocal cooperation helps the group survive, and as in the past groups tend to consist of closely related individuals this also makes sense in terms of survival.
But I agree that humans are capable of having true altruistic love, i.e. love that extends beyond its survival value. This may be the effect of certain ideas and thoughts--religion, philosophy, etc.
I know that you think romantically, but as far as I'm concerned that's just side-effects. The core is, after all, that love is an adaptation. Not that it devalues love. A lot of wonderful things we have may be adaptations religion, sense of morality, sense of justice, etc. But then again, so are a lot of bad things too for instance xenophobia and the ability to cheat.
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I know that you think romantically, but as far as I'm concerned that's just side-effects.
On the contrary Andya. I think Romantic Love is just the begining of trying to understand the meaning of Love. See previous posts -)
What is the survival value of unrequited love Andya?
Regards,
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SaLaM
One does not need love to survive. Apart from that, completely agree with esimsek100's post.
You can even bleed and die joyfully for love...
Just like the sucide bombers do, for their Love of God. See? Loooooooolll How useless the word Love is? Love dont give u special powers. There is nothing u cant do when your in love, than when ur NOT in love. Infact, you willl do it better. Love clouds ur mind. Throws off ur judgement. U use ur heart instead of your brain.
Love, if anything, impairs u from making the right judgement. From doing the right thing. Same effect after drinking alcohol or smoking weed.
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What is the survival value of unrequited love Andya?
Regards,
Give me your examples of what you think counts as unrequited love. Because I'm not clear about what you mean by it.
You might ask me to look for the examples myself, but it will be better if you define it yourself, so that we'e not talking about different things.
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What is the survival value of unrequited love Andya?
Regards,
Give me your examples of what you think counts as unrequited love. Because I'm not clear about what you mean by it.
You might ask me to look for the examples myself, but it will be better if you define it yourself, so that we'e not talking about different things.
If you are able to understand this then you will be able to understand what I am talking about
The More Loving One
Looking up at the stars, I know quite well
That, for all they care, I can go to hell,
But on earth indifference is the least
We have to dread from man or beast.How should we like it were stars to burn
With a passion for us we could not return?
If equal affection cannot be,
Let the more loving one be me.Admirer as I think I am
Of stars that do not give a damn,
I cannot, now I see them, say
I missed one terribly all day.Were all stars to disappear or die,
I should learn to look at an empty sky
And feel its total dark sublime,
Though this might take me a little time.- W H Auden
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Peace all,
Really? How does unrequited Love have any survival value?
And why would the healthy love the ill or the deseased? Where is the survival value in that?Even honest atheist can't discount love!
Love seems to go beyond mere survival value.
You can even bleed and die joyfully for love...Unrequited Love also has survival value. You desire that individual because that individual has apparent aspects that they could potentially pass down to your children.
Healthy loving the ill check out Andya's respone. And in addition. It was found that of all species there are only two species who know of the concept of sharing, that being humans and vampire bats. Basically you take care of one, and when it's the other's turn they take care of you. This is called strength in numbers.
As for the poem you posted, it describes my description of love. As I said before love can be defined by an economics supply/demand curve
http//www.bized.ac.uk/stafsup/options/supply/demand1.gif
Basically replace price with amount of love given and then replace demand with your partner's desire for you.
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Unrequited Love also has survival value. You desire that individual because that individual has apparent aspects that they could potentially pass down to your children.
Believe me Unrequited Love is nothing to do with reproduction. As I said before Love is nothing to do with reproduction. Love is not Sex. But Sex can be part of Love. Love seems to go beyond these things.
Healthy loving the ill check out Andya's respone.
And in addition. It was found that of all species there are only two species who know of the concept of sharing, that being humans and vampire bats. Basically you take care of one, and when it's the other's turn they take care of you. This is called strength in numbers.Why does a Healthy Love a cancer patient full knowing that they will die in few months? Where is the survival value in loving the living "dead"?
As for the poem you posted, it describes my description of love. As I said before love can be defined by an economics supply/demand curve
That poem was about Unrequited Love. There is pain in it but there can also be joy in it. It is how you come to terms with it that determines your joy or pain. But even with Unrequited Love there is a lesson of understanding what love is.
If Love was simple as supply and demand then business people would have made a killing with it. But Love goes beyond mere economics.
Regards,
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Peace,
LoteTree what I'm sensing is that you don't want to let go, that you want to believe that love is real. My friend it aint.
Unrequited Love also has survival value. You desire that individual because that individual has apparent aspects that they could potentially pass down to your children.
Believe me Unrequited Love is nothing to do with reproduction. As I said before Love is nothing to do with reproduction. Love is not Sex. But Sex can be part of Love. Love seems to go beyond these things.
Love has everything to do with reproduction, every aspect of the human has to do with reproduction. Reproduction is our (humans) PRIMARY GOAL on this planet.
In no way does Love go "beyond" this, love is a SMALL part of it.
Healthy loving the ill check out Andya's respone.
And in addition. It was found that of all species there are only two species who know of the concept of sharing, that being humans and vampire bats. Basically you take care of one, and when it's the other's turn they take care of you. This is called strength in numbers.Why does a Healthy Love a cancer patient full knowing that they will die in few months? Where is the survival value in loving the living "dead"?
Ummm see you're mistaken here. You're only looking at one small corner of the picture, you have to take a look at the WHOLE picture. We (humans) have lived for thousands and thousands of years, without a doubt there has been changes in our actions and thoughts.
We are once again changing, we are trying to beat cancer (by finding a cure for it), once again we are in a mode of self-preservation. If we do find a cure for cancer, it means a greater population for our "tribe"/family, hence strenght in numbers and better self-preservation.
As for the poem you posted, it describes my description of love. As I said before love can be defined by an economics supply/demand curve
That poem was about Unrequited Love. There is pain in it but there can also be joy in it. It is how you come to terms with it that determines your joy or pain. But even with Unrequited Love there is a lesson of understanding what love is.
If Love was simple as supply and demand then business people would have made a killing with it. But Love goes beyond mere economics.
Regards,
Lote,
you smother a person with love, they are likely to reject you. You act like a sane person your likely to receive love.
Love works on the premise of a supply/demand.
As I've said before I HAVE manipulated girls into falling in "love" with me and purely by using the supply/demand concepts.
After being able to manipulate girls into "falling in love" with me, I now understand that love is all an illusion.
Yes at one stage I believed in love and "was in love", but years have passed and do I still "love" that person????
No.
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If you are able to understand this then you will be able to understand what I am talking about
Please define using more precise terms. I know we hold different standards, you value subjectivity while I, due to the nature of my field, value precision and objectivity. Even if I try to understand that poem it will still be my own understanding, not yours; so I ask you for your understanding, not mine. Your poetry example is too imprecise.
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Why does a Healthy Love a cancer patient full knowing that they will die in few months? Where is the survival value in loving the living "dead"?
You concentrate on a particular case. To love (of which I think you mean care and support, not desire in the sexual sense?) a terminally ill person is just an extension of the general tendency to help others, and it is this general tendency that has survival values.
If Love was simple as supply and demand then business people would have made a killing with it. But Love goes beyond mere economics.
I thought they already did? Businesses thrive in making people beautiful, supplying ideas about love (movies, music), etc.
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Salaam all,
I will just say that there are a big different between LOVE and falling in love.
When you are so called in love it is when you walk on clouds and you feel warm in your body and so on and this period lasts not long.After this hot beginning it will turn to real LOVE or just fading away.
And I can't agree that love cannot have anything to do with reproducing.
Because I have heard that all humans have special smells and that lead us to our partner.In the animal world it is often the male who are the most attractive and the female choose the one who can bore her genes into new offsprings.Love have many aspects indeed.
Peace
Sis Majidah -
Peace Esimsek,
You stated
You desire that individual because that individual has apparent aspects that they could potentially pass down to your children.
What about people who marry without any intention of having children?
It was found that of all species there are only two species who know of the concept of sharing, that being humans and vampire bats.
Actually, most pack animals share.
A question for all
Is there anyone here who disbelieves in love, but hasn't been hurt in the past?
Peace,
Tay -
Peace all,
When you are so called in love it is when you walk on clouds and you feel warm in your body and so on and this period lasts not long.After this hot beginning it will turn to real LOVE or just fading away.
"real love" should be respect for each other. The primary act in acheiving a long lasting relationship.
Arranged marriages tend to last longer due to the respect that surrounds them.
And now I know I'm going to come under criticism but I have to say it.
Men only want to sleep around, females are looking for that attachment, that "love". When it comes to the topic of "love" females are clouded by emotions, they are a lot more emotional then males. A male simply wants to spread his seed.
What about people who marry without any intention of having children?
Do I know all???????? wink
Honestly, I see marriage as "ownership", "ownership" for both parties involved.
Marriage is not needed, but once again humans have changed in that they now have to protect their assets. Marriage is a way of saying "stay away", to other potential suitors.
As far as people whitout the intention of having children goes, as I said to Lote Tree humans have been around for thousands and thousands of years, our thoughts and actions have changed.
At the moment the evolution of our minds (morals and ethics) has really screwed humans over. I think we (humans) need to take a step back and understand who we (our core essentials) are. There is a lot of confusion in this world because we no longer understand our roles.
Actually, most pack animals share.
Not the sharing I'm talking about.
Pack animals are generally a sole entity. It is the pack and only the pack. When the pack kills the alpha male/female eats first, then the beta males/females fight for the rest of the food.
That's not sharing.
What's found with vampire bats is that they hunt at night, suck their blood and come back to their nest. If there are bats who haven't been able to find food, then other bats regurgitate and share their blood with that bat. The next time the bat that didn't find food, the first time, is EXPECTED to share with others. If a bat doesn't share the rest of the nest remembers and isolates that particular bat.
This is sharing.
Is there anyone here who disbelieves in love, but hasn't been hurt in the past?
Yep, me.
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"real love" should be respect for each other. The primary act in acheiving a long lasting relationship.
Love is too subjective to be bound by 'shoulds' and 'betters'.
Men only want to sleep around, females are looking for that attachment, that "love". When it comes to the topic of "love" females are clouded by emotions, they are a lot more emotional then males. A male simply wants to spread his seed.
No. When it comes to humans, there's no such thing as a 'simple want'. That is unless you want to discount cultural evolution; and even so, you'll find that humans were monogamous long before 'civilisations' took form.
Honestly, I see marriage as "ownership", "ownership" for both parties involved.
Marriage is not needed, but once again humans have changed in that they now have to protect their assets. Marriage is a way of saying "stay away", to other potential suitors.
Marriage is just another word for monogamy, and plenty of animals are monogamous. Anyway, cultural evolution and conscious thought processing > instincts.
At the moment the evolution of our minds (morals and ethics) has really screwed humans over. I think we (humans) need to take a step back and understand who we (our core essentials) are. There is a lot of confusion in this world because we no longer understand our roles.
Yes. Let's go back to looting and pillaging.
Pack animals are generally a sole entity. It is the pack and only the pack. When the pack kills the alpha male/female eats first, then the beta males/females fight for the rest of the food.
That's not sharing.
Chimpanzees share. In fact, they exhibit a lot of traits once thought were exclusive to humans.
Is there anyone here who disbelieves in love, but hasn't been hurt in the past?
Yep, me.
How can you 'disbelieve' in love when someone says "I am in love"? You can say 'I've never been in love" but you have absolutely no logical ground to label them liars.
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Peace be upon you,
"Love" is an e-motion (an energy in motion). It is the energy that manifests giving without expecting anything in return. The sun is a good example of that idea.
This discussion of "warm and fuzzy" are chemical reactions in your body from emzymes and such that are released from mental stimulation, just like the way a mans reproduction tool becomes erect, etc. Butterflies in your stomach and all these things are just bodily reactions. One should not associate that with the energy that manifests "Love".
"Love" is not the type of energy that you should direxct to one or the other thing, it should be given to all. Again, like the example of the sun. This way, one does not fall into the deception of "falling in love" or "love at first sight", etc. One becomes a more loving person to all creation.
To say "I love this" implies that everything else is NOT loved. The greatest energy is that of ONENESS, and we must direct our Love to the WHOLE (Holy).
Love is the most beutiful state of mind
NO, PEACE is the most beautiful state of mind D
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Peace Esimsek,
You stated
Not the sharing I'm talking about.
Pack animals are generally a sole entity. It is the pack and only the pack. When the pack kills the alpha male/female eats first, then the beta males/females fight for the rest of the food.
That's not sharing.
First, I find it fascinating that the bats ostracize the selfish bastards!
But getting back to pack animals in general, you're right, to a degree. Wolves for instance, fit this mold, but not always. Smaller families of wolves, particularly when it's just a male, female, and pups, act very similar to bats(minus the ostracizing). The male hunts while the female stays with the pups. When the male returns, he regurgitates the food for the female to eat so that the pups can have their precious milk. When they're older, he regurgitates the food for them to eat directly. That's sharing.
Honestly, I see marriage as "ownership", "ownership" for both parties involved.
Interesting, although I highly doubt you'd find many happily married people who would agree with you. They'd say they're in love.
Marriage is not needed, but once again humans have changed in that they now have to protect their assets. Marriage is a way of saying "stay away", to other potential suitors.
I see...so this is an evolution of the neanderthal method of clubbing potential suitors to death? I think there's a little more to it than that.
As far as people whitout the intention of having children goes, as I said to Lote Tree humans have been around for thousands and thousands of years, our thoughts and actions have changed.
I agree with you here, but that does not explain people marrying with no intention of reproducing.
At the moment the evolution of our minds (morals and ethics) has really screwed humans over.
I echo Neo's comments
I think we (humans) need to take a step back and understand who we (our core essentials) are.
Apes?
There is a lot of confusion in this world because we no longer understand our roles.
Agreed. But going back to animal instinct is a bit of a stretch wouldn't you say? Perhaps compassion is one of those attributes that sets us apart from the animal kingdom. Perhaps compassion is a manifestation of love. And perhaps love is something that you've yet to experience, atleast in a romantic sense.
I've been down the path of "making girls fall in love", as you mentioned in a different post. What I learned, in retrospect, was not that I made them fall in love with me, but that I learned how to represent the ideal of what each girl expressed she desired in a person. I molded myself to fit each fantasy. This is not love. It's completely superficial and very temporary. It lacks substance.
Real love cannot be conjured, I'm afraid. It takes a willingness to completely open onesself up to another person, and to learn that it's ok to be completely open, atleast with that one person. And this can only be accomplished when one is completely open and forgiving of onesself.
Overall, it seems you have a very mechanical view of the world. Do you love anyone? Friends? Family? Pets? Are all your relationships strictly those that provide some sort of tangible advantage over not having those relationships, ie, security, nourshment, shelter, etc?
Peace,
Tay