MANIFESTO for Islamic Reform
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Salaamun alaikum Jaxal,
Just becoz it dont mention in the Qruan, dont mean Quran is anti-democratic
Democracy is obviously not mentioned in Al-quraan. However, what we can do here is deconstruct the meaning of democracy in normative usage.
Democracy simply means power of the people. In 'democracies' ALL legislative power belongs to the people. People can formulate laws over and above God's laws. This is how it is in the world.
Al-Quraan on the other commands a body of laws called 'al-ahkaam' (sing. hukm) . These laws are not up for negotiation as it would be shirik/associators to accept other legislators.
So yes, I would say Al-quraan is anti-democratic.
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Peace mquran,
I agree in the most part with your post, I have a question though.
Al-Quraan on the other commands a body of laws called 'al-ahkaam' (sing. hukm) . These laws are not up for negotiation as it would be shirik/associators to accept other legislators.
I would like to know if these laws would be up for different interpretations? Basically, would non negotiable include just one interpretation thats static for all time?
Thanks,
Nadia -
Well if Quran is ANTI-DEMOCRATIC then it has serious implications for all the Quran Alone believers that live in democratic societies around the world - does it not?
I think that is the question that needs to be addressed!
Why would it? In a 'democracy' (not that the UK and USA are
democracies) everyone has a right to vote or not to vote. I don't vote.Perhaps that is the reason why Pakistan and many of the middle eastern countries is so undemocratic, because whole ethos of the Quran is anti-democractic and this is reflected in their societies too?
Says the guy who does not trust his own REASON!
As for my opinions I think I have made it clear to you in countless threads.False. I said I trust the quran over my reasoning.
This is called abdicating your REASON.
You have no REASON of your OWN because QURAN is your REASON.Just like you trust books you never read over yours.
At least I am not limited to just ONE book! -)
For you Quran is your entire story and history and everything.
As for reading check surah 53, verse 14 - another clue -)This thread is about democracy and the Quran. Keep to the theme of the thread.
Duly noted.
About time!
I didn't know I was being called for as I was away. As for going 'personal', I think its quite cheeky that its coming from you who actually NAMES threads after people.
Yes, I got tired of your personal remarks in countless other threads things like "he is so full of himself etc..", so I created a thread in your honour but you did not respond did you? though knew about the thread! But you had your opportunity but now its gone.
The Real issue on this thread is DEMOCRACY and the QURAN!
How do you reconcile the two?Why should I reconcile the two, for a start?
Because you live in a society that goes against the whole ethos of the Quran which is anti-democratic.
Regards,
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Salaamun alaikum Nadia,
I would like to know if these laws would be up for different interpretations? Basically, would non negotiable include just one interpretation thats static for all time?
If you see 3/159 , it does talk about consulting with the believers but the decision making ability lies with the messenger (or one currently in that role). One guy has to lead, the one who has the dominion/mulk. Of course, that person's understand is susceptible to growth and people are free to disobey him if they so choose.
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Peace mquran,
If you see 3/159 , it does talk about consulting with the believers but the decision making ability lies with the messenger (or one currently in that role). One guy has to lead, the one who has the dominion/mulk. Of course, that person's understand is susceptible to growth and people are free to disobey him if they so choose.
Yes, that makes sense. I asked the question before in this thread and wasn't clear on this aspect.
Regards,
Nadia -
Perhaps that is the reason why Pakistan and many of the middle eastern countries is so undemocratic, because whole ethos of the Quran is anti-democractic and this is reflected in their societies too?
YOU are a bigger fan of the Quran than they are so before you accuse the Quran of anything, read it first. Plucking out two words from a translation doesn't constitute reading, unless of course you took two years to pick up the phrase (and to imagine the word 'dhimmi')
This is called abdicating your REASON.
You have no REASON of your OWN because QURAN is your REASONIf I had reasoning like yours, I would acquire a pet chimpanzee and ape him (no pun intended).
Yes, I got tired of your personal remarks in countless other threads things like "he is so full of himself etc..", so I created a thread in your honour but you did not respond did you? though knew about the thread! But you had your opportunity but now its gone.
Wow, are you the queen of england or something ? Perhaps Prince Phillip, considering your racist tendencies.
Why should I reconcile the two, for a start?
Because you live in a society that goes against the whole ethos of the Quran which is anti-democratic.
WHOLE ethos ? What utter nonsense. Seriously, are you pretending to be this blind, because no one can intentionally speak like this.
The UK has many similar values to al-quraan, such as social welfare and the promotion of knowledge. However , UK society does have elements which are anti-quranic such as the teleologisation of the holiday, the ideal home and the good life. The crucial element however, is that in this society, we're allowed freedom of views. Even socialists and anarchists, who are also anti-democracy, are allowed thier freedom.
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YOU are a bigger fan of the Quran than they are so before you accuse the Quran of anything, read it first. Plucking out two words from a translation doesn't constitute reading, unless of course you took two years to pick up the phrase (and to imagine the word 'dhimmi')
Before you said I have done ZERO reading of the Quran now I am plucking out two words!! Please make your mind up (but sorry you don't have a mind of your own, time to dive into the scripture again chap -))
This is called abdicating your REASON.
You have no REASON of your OWN because QURAN is your REASONIf I had reasoning like yours, I would acquire a pet chimpanzee and ape him (no pun intended).
I thought you already got a chimpanzee - and you know what I am talking about don't you? -)
Yes, I got tired of your personal remarks in countless other threads things like "he is so full of himself etc..", so I created a thread in your honour but you did not respond did you? though knew about the thread! But you had your opportunity but now its gone.
Wow, are you the queen of england or something ? Perhaps Prince Phillip, considering your racist tendencies.
Queen of England? - I thought that was you!! -)
You call me soft liberal and now a racist! Please make up your mind up (but sorry you don't have mind of your own do you, time to dive into the scripture again)
WHOLE ethos ? What utter nonsense. Seriously, are you pretending to be this blind, because no one can intentionally speak like this.
Hey you said yourself that Quran is anti-democractic. So make your mind up (but sorry you dont.... etc etc..)
The UK has many similar values to al-quraan, such as social welfare and the promotion of knowledge.
How fortunate but it's democracy is anti-quranic isn't it.
However , UK society does have elements which are anti-quranic such as the teleologisation of the holiday, the ideal home and the good life.
tele... what? Ideal Home and Good life is anti-quranic -)
blimey!The crucial element however, is that in this society, we're allowed freedom of views. Even socialists and anarchists, who are also anti-democracy, are allowed their freedom.
But previously you said freedom, demcracy, tolearnce are guilt words! make your mind up chap (but sorry you don't have .... etc. etc.
Regards,
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Peace,
Democracy is an idea but it doesn't seem to be working very well today! Look at the state of the world, something clearly went wrong with democracy, and this is not the first time democracy has failed, lets hope it'll be the last major failure for a long time.
Have you heard the saing 'Same sh*t, different day'? Well this is the case with the human struggle, it looks like a continous struggle and fight between ideas whether they are good or evil are for us to decide.
Nural
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SaLaM mquran
Of course, that person's understand is susceptible to growth and people are free to disobey him if they so choose.
So if the people see that their leader is unfit to lead them, they can choose to throw him out and put someone in who they agree is more fit to lead them. Ok... its called voting. It happens in every democratic country. The people CHOOSE who will lead them. Unlike pre-war Iraq where saddam was the only ruler. Now, Iraq is democratic coz it can choose its own leader. And i dont find anything in the Quran that contradicts that.
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because ppl will have different understandings of the koran . so who will decide which understanding to follow ?
Follow God alone, and everything will be clear. )Peace
there will always be difference in opinions . what is clear to me might not be clear to you .
peace.
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Salaamun alaikum,
Nurul AminDemocracy is an idea but it doesn't seem to be working very well today! Look at the state of the world, something clearly went wrong with democracy, and this is not the first time democracy has failed, lets hope it'll be the last major failure for a long time.
Brother, democracy doesn't exist to begin with. 'Labour' and 'conservative' are but names now, not actual policies. It's akin to people calling themselves 'muslims' but not actually identifying the essence of the meaning.
i agree that democracy is not right .
but how about a "democratic theocracy" ? .
because ppl will have different understandings of the koran . so who will decide which understanding to follow ?The person who has carved out a domain of power will decide. Of course, he can accept or reject advice from others. If others reject him, they are also free to leave.
Jaxal So if the people see that their leader is unfit to lead them, they can choose to throw him out and put someone in who they agree is more fit to lead them.
They cannot do this if it's HIS domain. In today's terms, lets say you establish an organisation and the HQ is your building. Can people vote you out of your own building? They are of course free to leave but they can't kick you out of your ownership.
Jaxal Ok... its called voting. It happens in every democratic country. The people CHOOSE who will lead them. Unlike pre-war Iraq where saddam was the only ruler. Now, Iraq is democratic coz it can choose its own leader. And i dont find anything in the Quran that contradicts that.
Contradicts ? The quran clearly tells us how David attained mulk/power. Please see 2/251. He didn't attain power by being voted into power. He attained it. The illusion of the state gives only illusory notions of power. In truth, people who hold the cards are the financiers.
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Salaamun alaikum,
Nurul AminDemocracy is an idea but it doesn't seem to be working very well today! Look at the state of the world, something clearly went wrong with democracy, and this is not the first time democracy has failed, lets hope it'll be the last major failure for a long time.
Brother, democracy doesn't exist to begin with. 'Labour' and 'conservative' are but names now, not actual policies. It's akin to people calling themselves 'muslims' but not actually identifying the essence of the meaning.
i agree that democracy is not right .
but how about a "democratic theocracy" ? .
because ppl will have different understandings of the koran . so who will decide which understanding to follow ?The person who has carved out a domain of power will decide. Of course, he can accept or reject advice from others. If others reject him, they are also free to leave.
Jaxal So if the people see that their leader is unfit to lead them, they can choose to throw him out and put someone in who they agree is more fit to lead them.
They cannot do this if it's HIS domain. In today's terms, lets say you establish an organisation and the HQ is your building. Can people vote you out of your own building? They are of course free to leave but they can't kick you out of your ownership.
Jaxal Ok... its called voting. It happens in every democratic country. The people CHOOSE who will lead them. Unlike pre-war Iraq where saddam was the only ruler. Now, Iraq is democratic coz it can choose its own leader. And i dont find anything in the Quran that contradicts that.
Contradicts ? The quran clearly tells us how David attained mulk/power. Please see 2/251. He didn't attain power by being voted into power. He attained it. The illusion of the state gives only illusory notions of power. In truth, people who hold the cards are the financiers.
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SaLaM mquran
They cannot do this if it's HIS domain. In today's terms, lets say you establish an organisation and the HQ is your building. Can people vote you out of your own building? They are of course free to leave but they can't kick you out of your ownership.
If someone establishes an arganisation, people wont just come to him and look at him as a leader. Nobody can just come into power. Nobody can just stand up and become a leader. Unless ofcourse its Bush. In which case people dont even have to vote for him to become the president Lollllllll
Contradicts ? The quran clearly tells us how David attained mulk/power. Please see 2/251. He didn't attain power by being voted into power. He attained it. The illusion of the state gives only illusory notions of power. In truth, people who hold the cards are the financiers.
He was David. Not some Tom Dick or Harry. He was David. Unfortunately, time have changed. Now people choose their leader. Unless ofcourse its the third world countries. In which case the dictatorship is forced on them. And i highly highly doubt that David' kingship was forced onto people. People CHOOSE him coz of his power and wisdom. Just like people choose Blair and Arafat to lead them. Quran is completely democratic. God even says not to force your belief on another. God teaches democracy. That is why he is GOD. Quran teaches Democracy. Its the book of GOD
"To you is your religion, and to me is my religion."
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Salaam Jaxal,
If someone establishes an arganisation, people wont just come to him and look at him as a leader. Nobody can just come into power. Nobody can just stand up and become a leader. Unless ofcourse its Bush. In which case people dont even have to vote for him to become the president Lollllllll
I'm not sure where you're getting your negations from but if that's your experience, well and good for you. I was privy to a founding of such an organisation only 9 months ago.
He was David. Not some Tom Dick or Harry. He was David. Unfortunately, time have changed. Now people choose their leader. Unless ofcourse its the third world countries. In which case the dictatorship is forced on them. And i highly highly doubt that David' kingship was forced onto people. People CHOOSE him coz of his power and wisdom.
Well if you feel times have changed, then you're quite free to reject the example of David. I refuse to do so for myself as Allah has declared thier stories to be a detailed explanation for everything (12/111). As for 'forced upon the people', nowhere did Allah say it was forced upon the people. 2/251 said Allah gave him power. He wasn't voted into power and people didn't choose him. I don't know what verse you were reading there but in general, the word 'vote' isnt in the Quran.
Just like people choose Blair and Arafat to lead them. Quran is completely democratic. God even says not to force your belief on another. God teaches democracy. That is why he is GOD. Quran teaches Democracy. Its the book of GOD
Its all well and good to assert something, but onless you actually quote the verses to prove it, it will remain your flights of fancy. As for forcing one's belief, you're quite right but what has this to do with democracy ?
Democracy simply means (in normative language) that the people have unlimited power to legislate. Al-Quraan tells us not to place our wilayat/trust-for-protectorship in the hands of those who conceal the truth (5/51) and that most people will not believe (12/103). This means that most people will end up rejecting concepts from al-quraan. If you think 'god teaches democracy' after that, then I think you would wait a long time for islaam to actualise in your surroundings.
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SaLaM mquran
I'm not sure where you're getting your negations from but if that's your experience, well and good for you. I was privy to a founding of such an organisation only 9 months ago.
I literally meant it as a king. No one can just stand up and be a king over night. ITs not possible.
2/251 said Allah gave him power. He wasn't voted into power and people didn't choose him. I don't know what verse you were reading there but in general, the word 'vote' isnt in the Quran.
So if he didnt force him into power and he wasnt voted by the people, how did he become a leader? Sure God gave him the power and all, but that dont mean he had a shiny halo around his head denoting he is a leader. And he didnt walk in and suddenly everyone realised he was a leader. No one become a leader JUST LIKE THAT. Either people choose and agree on him/her. Or he/she forces his/her power over the people. Like Saddam.
Its all well and good to assert something, but onless you actually quote the verses to prove it
Verse 109.6
what has this to do with democracy ?
As i said, no one can just come into power. Either people choose him/her or he/she forces her power on the people. How do u suppose David became a leader? Ok God gave him power and wisdom. God gives power and wisdom the person who created TV or the Telephone. But do u see Graham Bell being a president? Obviously no. If David became a leader it was become the people who he was a leader to, choose him. You are asking me to state the obvious here. He didnt become a leader over night.
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The person who has carved out a domain of power will decide. Of course, he can accept or reject advice from others. If others reject him, they are also free to leave.
Carved out a domain of power? You mean people like Stalin and Saddam?
mquran for a while I thought you were harmless with your barmy outpourings but I am begining to think you are not.They cannot do this if it's HIS domain. In today's terms, lets say you establish an organisation and the HQ is your building. Can people vote you out of your own building? They are of course free to leave but they can't kick you out of your ownership.
This is even barmier as barmier as it gets!
Regards,
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Jaxal I literally meant it as a king. No one can just stand up and be a king over night. ITs not possible
In your experience, you mean. It appears that you're quite confident that your experience is the last word on things so I wish you luck with that.
So if he didnt force him into power and he wasnt voted by the people, how did he become a leader? Sure God gave him the power and all, but that dont mean he had a shiny halo around his head denoting he is a leader. And he didnt walk in and suddenly everyone realised he was a leader. No one become a leader JUST LIKE THAT. Either people choose and agree on him/her. Or he/she forces his/her power over the people. Like Saddam.
Jaxal, can you please read the verse? Unless FM has drastically changed , the last time I looked, this was a Quranic discussion. Here's the verse for your convenience
By God's will they routed them; and David slew Goliath; and God gave him power and wisdom and taught him whatever (else) He willed. And did not God Check one set of people by means of another, the earth would indeed be full of mischief But God is full of bounty to all the worlds (2/251)
The slaying of Jaluut led to Allah conferring to him mulk wal hikmah. Jaluut was the overwhelming enemy of Bani Israil at the time (his name comes from the root jalaa and its cousin 'tajalli' has been used in the Quran to denote Allah's presence to Musa)
Verse 109.6
Would you care to actually analyse this verse before throwing it into the discussion? This verse is to al-kafireen, people who absolutely reject God's laws. You are telling them to you is your DEEN, to me is mine. In other words, if you use this for people in your domain, you are telling them 'feel free to practise mischief on earth in our domain'. In your envisioned democracy, are people allowed to loot, pillage and plunder ? Because people with such personalities will do just that.
As i said, no one can just come into power. Either people choose him/her or he/she forces her power on the people. How do u suppose David became a leader? Ok God gave him power and wisdom. God gives power and wisdom the person who created TV or the Telephone. But do u see Graham Bell being a president? Obviously no. If David became a leader it was become the people who he was a leader to, choose him. You are asking me to state the obvious here. He didnt become a leader over night.
How did Graham bell have power? not following you there.
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This is even barmier as barmier as it gets
And since that is the most intelligent statement coming from you, I would be doing myself a huge disservice by continuing to respond. I came to this forum to exchange information, learn new things and if I have anything to offer, offer my own understanding. When that fails and all that remains is just rantings without any solid fact from people who refuse to even state thier own opinion but instead hide behind the backs of others, then to continue is a waste of time.
Lote Tree, lets continue when you can state what a 'muslim' is. If you can't even do that, then there's no point.