MANIFESTO for Islamic Reform
-
Perhaps that is the reason why Pakistan and many of the middle eastern countries is so undemocratic, because whole ethos of the Quran is anti-democractic and this is reflected in their societies too?
YOU are a bigger fan of the Quran than they are so before you accuse the Quran of anything, read it first. Plucking out two words from a translation doesn't constitute reading, unless of course you took two years to pick up the phrase (and to imagine the word 'dhimmi')
This is called abdicating your REASON.
You have no REASON of your OWN because QURAN is your REASONIf I had reasoning like yours, I would acquire a pet chimpanzee and ape him (no pun intended).
Yes, I got tired of your personal remarks in countless other threads things like "he is so full of himself etc..", so I created a thread in your honour but you did not respond did you? though knew about the thread! But you had your opportunity but now its gone.
Wow, are you the queen of england or something ? Perhaps Prince Phillip, considering your racist tendencies.
Why should I reconcile the two, for a start?
Because you live in a society that goes against the whole ethos of the Quran which is anti-democratic.
WHOLE ethos ? What utter nonsense. Seriously, are you pretending to be this blind, because no one can intentionally speak like this.
The UK has many similar values to al-quraan, such as social welfare and the promotion of knowledge. However , UK society does have elements which are anti-quranic such as the teleologisation of the holiday, the ideal home and the good life. The crucial element however, is that in this society, we're allowed freedom of views. Even socialists and anarchists, who are also anti-democracy, are allowed thier freedom.
-
YOU are a bigger fan of the Quran than they are so before you accuse the Quran of anything, read it first. Plucking out two words from a translation doesn't constitute reading, unless of course you took two years to pick up the phrase (and to imagine the word 'dhimmi')
Before you said I have done ZERO reading of the Quran now I am plucking out two words!! Please make your mind up (but sorry you don't have a mind of your own, time to dive into the scripture again chap -))
This is called abdicating your REASON.
You have no REASON of your OWN because QURAN is your REASONIf I had reasoning like yours, I would acquire a pet chimpanzee and ape him (no pun intended).
I thought you already got a chimpanzee - and you know what I am talking about don't you? -)
Yes, I got tired of your personal remarks in countless other threads things like "he is so full of himself etc..", so I created a thread in your honour but you did not respond did you? though knew about the thread! But you had your opportunity but now its gone.
Wow, are you the queen of england or something ? Perhaps Prince Phillip, considering your racist tendencies.
Queen of England? - I thought that was you!! -)
You call me soft liberal and now a racist! Please make up your mind up (but sorry you don't have mind of your own do you, time to dive into the scripture again)
WHOLE ethos ? What utter nonsense. Seriously, are you pretending to be this blind, because no one can intentionally speak like this.
Hey you said yourself that Quran is anti-democractic. So make your mind up (but sorry you dont.... etc etc..)
The UK has many similar values to al-quraan, such as social welfare and the promotion of knowledge.
How fortunate but it's democracy is anti-quranic isn't it.
However , UK society does have elements which are anti-quranic such as the teleologisation of the holiday, the ideal home and the good life.
tele... what? Ideal Home and Good life is anti-quranic -)
blimey!The crucial element however, is that in this society, we're allowed freedom of views. Even socialists and anarchists, who are also anti-democracy, are allowed their freedom.
But previously you said freedom, demcracy, tolearnce are guilt words! make your mind up chap (but sorry you don't have .... etc. etc.
Regards,
-
Peace,
Democracy is an idea but it doesn't seem to be working very well today! Look at the state of the world, something clearly went wrong with democracy, and this is not the first time democracy has failed, lets hope it'll be the last major failure for a long time.
Have you heard the saing 'Same sh*t, different day'? Well this is the case with the human struggle, it looks like a continous struggle and fight between ideas whether they are good or evil are for us to decide.
Nural
-
SaLaM mquran
Of course, that person's understand is susceptible to growth and people are free to disobey him if they so choose.
So if the people see that their leader is unfit to lead them, they can choose to throw him out and put someone in who they agree is more fit to lead them. Ok... its called voting. It happens in every democratic country. The people CHOOSE who will lead them. Unlike pre-war Iraq where saddam was the only ruler. Now, Iraq is democratic coz it can choose its own leader. And i dont find anything in the Quran that contradicts that.
-
because ppl will have different understandings of the koran . so who will decide which understanding to follow ?
Follow God alone, and everything will be clear. )Peace
there will always be difference in opinions . what is clear to me might not be clear to you .
peace.
-
Salaamun alaikum,
Nurul AminDemocracy is an idea but it doesn't seem to be working very well today! Look at the state of the world, something clearly went wrong with democracy, and this is not the first time democracy has failed, lets hope it'll be the last major failure for a long time.
Brother, democracy doesn't exist to begin with. 'Labour' and 'conservative' are but names now, not actual policies. It's akin to people calling themselves 'muslims' but not actually identifying the essence of the meaning.
i agree that democracy is not right .
but how about a "democratic theocracy" ? .
because ppl will have different understandings of the koran . so who will decide which understanding to follow ?The person who has carved out a domain of power will decide. Of course, he can accept or reject advice from others. If others reject him, they are also free to leave.
Jaxal So if the people see that their leader is unfit to lead them, they can choose to throw him out and put someone in who they agree is more fit to lead them.
They cannot do this if it's HIS domain. In today's terms, lets say you establish an organisation and the HQ is your building. Can people vote you out of your own building? They are of course free to leave but they can't kick you out of your ownership.
Jaxal Ok... its called voting. It happens in every democratic country. The people CHOOSE who will lead them. Unlike pre-war Iraq where saddam was the only ruler. Now, Iraq is democratic coz it can choose its own leader. And i dont find anything in the Quran that contradicts that.
Contradicts ? The quran clearly tells us how David attained mulk/power. Please see 2/251. He didn't attain power by being voted into power. He attained it. The illusion of the state gives only illusory notions of power. In truth, people who hold the cards are the financiers.
-
Salaamun alaikum,
Nurul AminDemocracy is an idea but it doesn't seem to be working very well today! Look at the state of the world, something clearly went wrong with democracy, and this is not the first time democracy has failed, lets hope it'll be the last major failure for a long time.
Brother, democracy doesn't exist to begin with. 'Labour' and 'conservative' are but names now, not actual policies. It's akin to people calling themselves 'muslims' but not actually identifying the essence of the meaning.
i agree that democracy is not right .
but how about a "democratic theocracy" ? .
because ppl will have different understandings of the koran . so who will decide which understanding to follow ?The person who has carved out a domain of power will decide. Of course, he can accept or reject advice from others. If others reject him, they are also free to leave.
Jaxal So if the people see that their leader is unfit to lead them, they can choose to throw him out and put someone in who they agree is more fit to lead them.
They cannot do this if it's HIS domain. In today's terms, lets say you establish an organisation and the HQ is your building. Can people vote you out of your own building? They are of course free to leave but they can't kick you out of your ownership.
Jaxal Ok... its called voting. It happens in every democratic country. The people CHOOSE who will lead them. Unlike pre-war Iraq where saddam was the only ruler. Now, Iraq is democratic coz it can choose its own leader. And i dont find anything in the Quran that contradicts that.
Contradicts ? The quran clearly tells us how David attained mulk/power. Please see 2/251. He didn't attain power by being voted into power. He attained it. The illusion of the state gives only illusory notions of power. In truth, people who hold the cards are the financiers.
-
SaLaM mquran
They cannot do this if it's HIS domain. In today's terms, lets say you establish an organisation and the HQ is your building. Can people vote you out of your own building? They are of course free to leave but they can't kick you out of your ownership.
If someone establishes an arganisation, people wont just come to him and look at him as a leader. Nobody can just come into power. Nobody can just stand up and become a leader. Unless ofcourse its Bush. In which case people dont even have to vote for him to become the president Lollllllll
Contradicts ? The quran clearly tells us how David attained mulk/power. Please see 2/251. He didn't attain power by being voted into power. He attained it. The illusion of the state gives only illusory notions of power. In truth, people who hold the cards are the financiers.
He was David. Not some Tom Dick or Harry. He was David. Unfortunately, time have changed. Now people choose their leader. Unless ofcourse its the third world countries. In which case the dictatorship is forced on them. And i highly highly doubt that David' kingship was forced onto people. People CHOOSE him coz of his power and wisdom. Just like people choose Blair and Arafat to lead them. Quran is completely democratic. God even says not to force your belief on another. God teaches democracy. That is why he is GOD. Quran teaches Democracy. Its the book of GOD
"To you is your religion, and to me is my religion."
-
Salaam Jaxal,
If someone establishes an arganisation, people wont just come to him and look at him as a leader. Nobody can just come into power. Nobody can just stand up and become a leader. Unless ofcourse its Bush. In which case people dont even have to vote for him to become the president Lollllllll
I'm not sure where you're getting your negations from but if that's your experience, well and good for you. I was privy to a founding of such an organisation only 9 months ago.
He was David. Not some Tom Dick or Harry. He was David. Unfortunately, time have changed. Now people choose their leader. Unless ofcourse its the third world countries. In which case the dictatorship is forced on them. And i highly highly doubt that David' kingship was forced onto people. People CHOOSE him coz of his power and wisdom.
Well if you feel times have changed, then you're quite free to reject the example of David. I refuse to do so for myself as Allah has declared thier stories to be a detailed explanation for everything (12/111). As for 'forced upon the people', nowhere did Allah say it was forced upon the people. 2/251 said Allah gave him power. He wasn't voted into power and people didn't choose him. I don't know what verse you were reading there but in general, the word 'vote' isnt in the Quran.
Just like people choose Blair and Arafat to lead them. Quran is completely democratic. God even says not to force your belief on another. God teaches democracy. That is why he is GOD. Quran teaches Democracy. Its the book of GOD
Its all well and good to assert something, but onless you actually quote the verses to prove it, it will remain your flights of fancy. As for forcing one's belief, you're quite right but what has this to do with democracy ?
Democracy simply means (in normative language) that the people have unlimited power to legislate. Al-Quraan tells us not to place our wilayat/trust-for-protectorship in the hands of those who conceal the truth (5/51) and that most people will not believe (12/103). This means that most people will end up rejecting concepts from al-quraan. If you think 'god teaches democracy' after that, then I think you would wait a long time for islaam to actualise in your surroundings.
-
SaLaM mquran
I'm not sure where you're getting your negations from but if that's your experience, well and good for you. I was privy to a founding of such an organisation only 9 months ago.
I literally meant it as a king. No one can just stand up and be a king over night. ITs not possible.
2/251 said Allah gave him power. He wasn't voted into power and people didn't choose him. I don't know what verse you were reading there but in general, the word 'vote' isnt in the Quran.
So if he didnt force him into power and he wasnt voted by the people, how did he become a leader? Sure God gave him the power and all, but that dont mean he had a shiny halo around his head denoting he is a leader. And he didnt walk in and suddenly everyone realised he was a leader. No one become a leader JUST LIKE THAT. Either people choose and agree on him/her. Or he/she forces his/her power over the people. Like Saddam.
Its all well and good to assert something, but onless you actually quote the verses to prove it
Verse 109.6
what has this to do with democracy ?
As i said, no one can just come into power. Either people choose him/her or he/she forces her power on the people. How do u suppose David became a leader? Ok God gave him power and wisdom. God gives power and wisdom the person who created TV or the Telephone. But do u see Graham Bell being a president? Obviously no. If David became a leader it was become the people who he was a leader to, choose him. You are asking me to state the obvious here. He didnt become a leader over night.
-
The person who has carved out a domain of power will decide. Of course, he can accept or reject advice from others. If others reject him, they are also free to leave.
Carved out a domain of power? You mean people like Stalin and Saddam?
mquran for a while I thought you were harmless with your barmy outpourings but I am begining to think you are not.They cannot do this if it's HIS domain. In today's terms, lets say you establish an organisation and the HQ is your building. Can people vote you out of your own building? They are of course free to leave but they can't kick you out of your ownership.
This is even barmier as barmier as it gets!
Regards,
-
Jaxal I literally meant it as a king. No one can just stand up and be a king over night. ITs not possible
In your experience, you mean. It appears that you're quite confident that your experience is the last word on things so I wish you luck with that.
So if he didnt force him into power and he wasnt voted by the people, how did he become a leader? Sure God gave him the power and all, but that dont mean he had a shiny halo around his head denoting he is a leader. And he didnt walk in and suddenly everyone realised he was a leader. No one become a leader JUST LIKE THAT. Either people choose and agree on him/her. Or he/she forces his/her power over the people. Like Saddam.
Jaxal, can you please read the verse? Unless FM has drastically changed , the last time I looked, this was a Quranic discussion. Here's the verse for your convenience
By God's will they routed them; and David slew Goliath; and God gave him power and wisdom and taught him whatever (else) He willed. And did not God Check one set of people by means of another, the earth would indeed be full of mischief But God is full of bounty to all the worlds (2/251)
The slaying of Jaluut led to Allah conferring to him mulk wal hikmah. Jaluut was the overwhelming enemy of Bani Israil at the time (his name comes from the root jalaa and its cousin 'tajalli' has been used in the Quran to denote Allah's presence to Musa)
Verse 109.6
Would you care to actually analyse this verse before throwing it into the discussion? This verse is to al-kafireen, people who absolutely reject God's laws. You are telling them to you is your DEEN, to me is mine. In other words, if you use this for people in your domain, you are telling them 'feel free to practise mischief on earth in our domain'. In your envisioned democracy, are people allowed to loot, pillage and plunder ? Because people with such personalities will do just that.
As i said, no one can just come into power. Either people choose him/her or he/she forces her power on the people. How do u suppose David became a leader? Ok God gave him power and wisdom. God gives power and wisdom the person who created TV or the Telephone. But do u see Graham Bell being a president? Obviously no. If David became a leader it was become the people who he was a leader to, choose him. You are asking me to state the obvious here. He didnt become a leader over night.
How did Graham bell have power? not following you there.
-
This is even barmier as barmier as it gets
And since that is the most intelligent statement coming from you, I would be doing myself a huge disservice by continuing to respond. I came to this forum to exchange information, learn new things and if I have anything to offer, offer my own understanding. When that fails and all that remains is just rantings without any solid fact from people who refuse to even state thier own opinion but instead hide behind the backs of others, then to continue is a waste of time.
Lote Tree, lets continue when you can state what a 'muslim' is. If you can't even do that, then there's no point.
-
SaLaM mquran
In your experience, you mean. It appears that you're quite confident that your experience is the last word on things so I wish you luck with that.
Brother lets not make it personel. Give me an example where a leader came into power without choosing or without forcing himself.
Jaxal, can you please read the verse? Unless FM has drastically changed , the last time I looked, this was a Quranic discussion. Here's the verse for your convenience
I simply cannot see how that verse address the issue. Unless im overlooking something, in which case, please point it out to me coz i have googly eyes.
This verse is to al-kafireen, people who absolutely reject God's laws
So brother, in your opinion, God is saying that dont force your belief on a non-believer, but leave no space in forcing it on a fellow muslim? Sunnis and free-minders. Do u think since you are both muslims, u think its ok for each of you to be forcing your belief on each other? Wont you look at the verse 109.6?
In other words, if you use this for people in your domain,
I dont know what this has to do with being democratic. There is a difference between being democratic and being a criminal.
How did Graham bell have power? not following you there.
Sorry i think it was a lousy example. but my point was, God has given many people wisdom and knowledge. Yet they are not in power. So either people didnt choose him. Or the power and wisdom he recieved was of a different nature.
-
What a surprise! What a dissapointment!
It seems that the brains of Muslims are so polluted with the authocratic or tyrranical teachings and culture, even some of the so-called Quran Alone brothers and sisters are still defending monarchies or oligarchies in the name of God.
This cultural pollution plus confusion about the nature of democracy (many assume that the US is a democraticly governed country, which is for most part is NOT), needs much more attention than I expected....
I was very navie to assume that any student of the Quran would see the obvious Quranic precepts promoting Democracy. I will inshallah try to write an article on this issue before the end of this year.
For those who wish to push their religion or system on me or others in the name of God, "your system is for you and my system is for me."
Peace,
Edip -
Dear Edip,
It's surprising to see you turn to intellectual cowardice. Instead of presenting the more beautiful arguments (16/125) you accuse those who disagree with you of 'authocratic or tyrranical teachings'. It seems you're only good at debating sunnis but when it comes to Quranic arguments, you turn tail and hide behind a decontextualised verse.
'To you your religion to me mine' is something to say to an 'al-kafir', a person who has absolutely rejected God's law. Without even a quoting a single verse in support of your democratic nonsense, you accuse others of being kafir? A kafir is one who conceals/rejects God's laws and God's laws are in al-quraan. Haven't I been a quoting from al-quraan?
As for poor David and Solomon, I guess they shouldn't be in the Quran. Maybe your fellow 19ers can continue thier omitting exercise and excise David and Solomon too. Or perhaps we CAN make distinctions among the messengers, something which you 19 ppl have been against all these years and deemphasise David and Solomon who were probably kings because of some cultural nonsense even though Allah mentioned it. Anything to ingratiate ourselves to the powers that be, right Edip?
And while we're at it, maybe we should also tell Musa to first confer with the faasiq Bani Israil before he leaves them outright. Or maybe ar-rasul, instead of just conferring with believers in 3/159 (but making his decision solely , fa iza azamTA, dont forget) , he should start conferring with the disbelievers too? We should make all these corrections quickly Edip, before the powers that be think we're too regressive for thier post-modern ways.
Pathetic.
-
Salaam Jaxal,
Brother lets not make it personel. Give me an example where a leader came into power without choosing or without forcing himself.
Brother, YOU'RE making it personal. You've never experienced something like this and therefore you think it's impossible. I trust al-quraan's narrations and this is how I believe things run in the world.
I simply cannot see how that verse address the issue. Unless im overlooking something, in which case, please point it out to me coz i have googly eyes
.The verse tells us that David, after destroying the overwhelming enemy, was granted power. To attain power in the same way, we must do the same thing.
So brother, in your opinion, God is saying that dont force your belief on a non-believer, but leave no space in forcing it on a fellow muslim? Sunnis and free-minders. Do u think since you are both muslims, u think its ok for each of you to be forcing your belief on each other? Wont you look at the verse 109.6?
No one is forcing belief on anyone. All im saying is, when you enter a dominion run on Quranic laws, you obey those laws. If you feel those laws are burdensome, then leave. Its as simple as that. Your definition of 'muslim' seems to have a religious connotation whereas Quranically, a muslim is one who obeys Allah's laws and the laws must be operational in a given dominion.
I dont know what this has to do with being democratic. There is a difference between being democratic and being a criminal.
Once again, being a 'democract' in the normative sense of the word means that everyone is consulted in the process of unlimited legislation. Unlimited legislation is simply not possible if one is a muslim. I dont understand how this very simple deduction can be controversial.
-
SaLaM mquran
The verse tells us that David, after destroying the overwhelming enemy, was granted power. To attain power in the same way, we must do the same thing.
What kind of power did David attain. If he was made a leader of the people, then why do u expect that same scenario to happen again? Many men destroy armies for their country. Not all become leaders. Infact, they are kept out of becomming a leader. Its just not the same thing.
Your definition of 'muslim' seems to have a religious connotation whereas Quranically, a muslim is one who obeys Allah's laws and the laws must be operational in a given dominion.
There are many sunnis who dont follow Hadiths and they call them selves sunnis. I was simply giving an example between two different sects who follow Allah. But never the less, is it fair for a sunni to come to a shia and force his belief on him? or vice versa? You think that verse is only meant for the unbelievers. Does that give the sunni the right to force his belief on a shia?
Once again, being a 'democract' in the normative sense of the word means that everyone is consulted in the process of unlimited legislation. Unlimited legislation is simply not possible if one is a muslim. I dont understand how this very simple deduction can be controversial.
So you are saying, that say in the near future, All the people who beleive in Quran Alone form a country. The leader of that country will be chosen by.... what? A random draw? Or will someone have to destroy armies before that peson is chosen a leader? Tell me brother, how will that go?