To those who claim bowing/prostrating towards Kaaba is shirk
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Salaamun alaikum,
IDM Some here including Ayman claimed that bowing towards a physical structure cannot possibly be GOD's command and would be shirk. To prove how nonsensible this assertion is one only needs to consider those Quranic verses where GOD Himself commands the angels to protrate, yes the very same word PROSTRATE, before Adam. So who do you think they were worshipping, Adam or God? See the difference? GOD Bless!
Firstly, does 'sujud' have the meaning of a physical prostration? If it does
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Did Bani Israil enter the city ON THIER FOREHEADS (2/5
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Can you possibly fall prostration ON YOUR CHIN (17/109)? please send a pic if you can do this.
Bowing to the physical structure cannot be compared to any sajda made in al-quraan.
I think we can be friends afterall . Completely agree with you on this. I think people are just too wound up in the defination of worshipping
.Yes, we shouldn't be too wound up. After all, its only mentioned in the first chapter where we tell Allah 'YOU ALONE do we worship'. He won't care if we didn't really mean it, he was just havin us on, right?
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a very simple question..........
How does prostrating to a stone house be same as prostrating to God (an unseen source) ?
peace
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Salaamun alaikum,
IDM Some here including Ayman claimed that bowing towards a physical structure cannot possibly be GOD's command and would be shirk. To prove how nonsensible this assertion is one only needs to consider those Quranic verses where GOD Himself commands the angels to protrate, yes the very same word PROSTRATE, before Adam. So who do you think they were worshipping, Adam or God? See the difference? GOD Bless!
Firstly, does 'sujud' have the meaning of a physical prostration? If it does
-
Did Bani Israil enter the city ON THIER FOREHEADS (2/5
-
Can you possibly fall prostration ON YOUR CHIN (17/109)? please send a pic if you can do this.
Bowing to the physical structure cannot be compared to any sajda made in al-quraan.
I think we can be friends afterall . Completely agree with you on this. I think people are just too wound up in the defination of worshipping
.Yes, we shouldn't be too wound up. After all, its only mentioned in the first chapter where we tell Allah 'YOU ALONE do we worship'. He won't care if we didn't really mean it, he was just havin us on, right?
OMG bro, you had me fall of my chair
The post smacks of the same wit as Oscar Wilde lolHowever i fully agree, but im sure its obvious from my other posts.
Idmkhizar. My problem is not as much the fact that the kabba is a focal point as humans have used those since forever to have something tangible on God. However...the pet rock in the corner of the kabaa DOES concern me a lot, and it should you too, because i know that you know where it came from if you are honest with yourself. And yuou know, as well as i now what that thing represents.
Peace
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Salaamun alaikum Noah,
OMG bro, you had me fall of my chair
The post smacks of the same wit as Oscar Wilde lolThanks. Im trying to get the point across that this is, being a quranic forum, should entail bringing the quran into it. Shame on us, that's not the case. We seem to be going on a sunni track where everyone's just opining on how they think religion should be. Thats fine to opine, but where does al-quraan come in ?
Idmkhizar. My problem is not as much the fact that the kabba is a focal point as humans have used those since forever to have something tangible on God. However...the pet rock in the corner of the kabaa DOES concern me a lot, and it should you too, because i know that you know where it came from if you are honest with yourself. And yuou know, as well as i now what that thing represents.
The first criteria of being al-muttaqee (the operational side of being an al-muslim, one who copies Ibrahim in the Quran) is conviction IN THE UNSEEN (imaan bil ghaib). Unless we have the correct imaan, our hearts will not move correctly and thus our souls cannot evolve. This is what shackled the sunnis, i imagine. When they concretised a method of salaat and focused on that INSTEAD of the islamic process, they killed the momentum.
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Firstly, does 'sujud' have the meaning of a physical prostration? If it does
-
Did Bani Israil enter the city ON THIER FOREHEADS (2/5
-
Can you possibly fall prostration ON YOUR CHIN (17/109)? please send a pic if you can do this.
Bowing to the physical structure cannot be compared to any sajda made in al-quraan.
Khi- Salam. Firstly this is totally irrelevant. 2ndly 'sujood' can mean BOTH physical and non-physical. I was just giving an example that doing "sujood" towards kaaba(whatever that means or is interpretetd as) CANNOT BE TERMED SHIRK. Period. GOD Bless!
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a very simple question..........
How does prostrating to a stone house be same as prostrating to God (an unseen source) ?
peace
Khi- Salam. Did i say it was the same? For me it is a disciplinary act instructed by GOD. GOD is everywhere so we already do sujood(the mental one) towards Him always if we are believers. What i was saying is that doing 'sujood' towards kaaba cannot be shirk. Angels were also commanded to do "sujood" before Adam, wernt they? Yet they were clearly worshipping GOD, NOT Adam. GOD Bless!
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Khi- Salam. Firstly this is totally irrelevant. 2ndly 'sujood' can mean BOTH physical and non-physical. I was just giving an example that doing "sujood" towards kaaba(whatever that means or is interpretetd as) CANNOT BE TERMED SHIRK. Period. GOD Bless!
Your argument used the metaphor of Adam to say that since angels did sajda to other than Allah, we can do the same to a gigantic brick in the middle of the desert.
I am attempting to question THAT argument by asserting that nowhere in al-quraan does sujud signify a physical act. If im right, then your argument with Adam fails. That's how its relevant.
So please show me where in al-quraan does sajda imply a physical act.
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Khi- Salam. Firstly this is totally irrelevant. 2ndly 'sujood' can mean BOTH physical and non-physical. I was just giving an example that doing "sujood" towards kaaba(whatever that means or is interpretetd as) CANNOT BE TERMED SHIRK. Period. GOD Bless!
Your argument used the metaphor of Adam to say that since angels did sajda to other than Allah, we can do the same to a gigantic brick in the middle of the desert.
I am attempting to question THAT argument by asserting that nowhere in al-quraan does sujud signify a physical act. If im right, then your argument with Adam fails. That's how its relevant.
So please show me where in al-quraan does sajda imply a physical act.
Khi- Salam. By definition of the word it can mean a physical act. That is enough. And yes verses like
The magicians fell prostrate.
Comment This could be physical indeed. In olden times people used to physically bow down in order to show respect.
He raised his parents upon the throne. They fell prostrate before him....
Comment Again this can well be physical prostration.
But anyways "sujood" either means physical prostration OR to submit, one of the two. So now youd still have a problem with the angels submitting to Adam instead of GOD, wouldnt you? Id say a mental submission to someone is equal if not even more significant at times than a physical prostration. So if your trying to claim that doing a physical sajda infornt of somebody is shirk while doing a mental sajda towards the same is not, is absurd to say the least. GOD Bless! -
The magicians fell prostrate.
Comment This could be physical indeed. In olden times people used to physically bow down in order to show respect.Khi, what you should do is, find how its used in a causal sense. 17/109 tells u what it is in a causal sense. Because there's no way it can possibly be physical act if your chin is involved. From there, you map it back to non-causal usage. The Quran doesnt tell you to look through 'olden times'. Its not a book of 'olden days'. It's a here and now book, for here and now people.
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Salam,
To prove how nonsensible this assertion is one only needs to consider those Quranic verses where GOD Himself commands the angels to protrate, yes the very same word PROSTRATE, before Adam. So who do you think they were worshipping, Adam or God? See the difference? GOD Bless!
To me the word sujud in that verse did not mean prostate. It is just simply mean submit. Most people believe that malaika looks like human with wing. So when God ask malaika to submit before Adam, most people imagine that the angle prostrating before Adam in heaven.
Actually the verse simply means that the energy (malaika) are required to submit to human. Like the car we drive, the cell phone we use, the plane we fly, rain, wind, ocean current etc are all for our benefit. All submitting before us except iblis, which is our ego, hate, fear, lust etc.
Also in verse 230, when the malaika said that they glorifying God, it is just simply mean that, the energy in the heaven and earth work perfectly in harmony with each other. Example like trees provide oxygen, bird and insect pollinate the plant, the giant whale cannot survive without tiny plankton and giant redwood cannot survive without insect.
Regards
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The magicians fell prostrate.
Comment This could be physical indeed. In olden times people used to physically bow down in order to show respect.Khi, what you should do is, find how its used in a causal sense. 17/109 tells u what it is in a causal sense. Because there's no way it can possibly be physical act if your chin is involved. From there, you map it back to non-causal usage. The Quran doesnt tell you to look through 'olden times'. Its not a book of 'olden days'. It's a here and now book, for here and now people.
Khi- Salam. But we also need to understand the use of the word in the Arabic language. Without this how can you start knowing whats in Quran. Knowledge initiates from society. One cannot ignore this obvious fact. Then ofcourse relations can be formed within the Quran to see whether a certain meaning doesnt contradict other places in it. I dont see how a physical sujood would contradict any commandments in the Quran. And whats this all about the chin. I fall prostrate on my forehead. Everyone knows how to fall prostrate so whts the argument all about? GOD Bless!
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To me the word sujud in that verse did not mean prostate. It is just simply mean submit. Most people believe that malaika looks like human with wing. So when God ask malaika to submit before Adam, most people imagine that the angle prostrating before Adam in heaven.
Khi- Salam. This was exactly my point. Do you mean to say that prostarting is worth more than "simply" submitting??? If you do id strongly disagree. The musicians bow infront of the audience out of resepect yet they would not submit themselves to them, would they?
Actually the verse simply means that the energy (malaika) are required to submit to human. Like the car we drive, the cell phone we use, the plane we fly, rain, wind, ocean current etc are all for our benefit. All submitting before us except iblis, which is our ego, hate, fear, lust etc.
Also in verse 230, when the malaika said that they glorifying God, it is just simply mean that, the energy in the heaven and earth work perfectly in harmony with each other. Example like trees provide oxygen, bird and insect pollinate the plant, the giant whale cannot survive without tiny plankton and giant redwood cannot survive without insect.
Regards
Khi- This is all fine except that you didnt get my point. I hope you understood it now. GOD Bless!
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Some here including Ayman claimed that bowing towards a physical structure cannot possibly be GOD's command and would be shirk. To prove how nonsensible this assertion is one only needs to consider those Quranic verses where GOD Himself commands the angels to protrate, yes the very same word PROSTRATE, before Adam. So who do you think they were worshipping, Adam or God? See the difference? GOD Bless!
Where does The God command us to bow and/or prostrate to/towards a black stone cube? Please give a reference.
Whether one interprets "sujud" as physical or non-physical, it is an indisputable fact that we are NEVER commanded to prostrate to/towards a black stone cube. You are free to prostrate to your idol all you want like the majority of sectarians and your forefathers, but don't lie about The God and claim that He commanded us to do so.
Peace on who followed the guidance,
Ayman
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speaking of black cubes. Am i the only one who think that mecca and sunnism served as the role model for the borg in star trek? Look alike, talk alike, be alike, assimilate anyone in your way or kill it. And then they always come flying in a huge black cube. ?!
Peace
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speaking of black cubes. Am i the only one who think that mecca and sunnism served as the role model for the borg in star trek? Look alike, talk alike, be alike, assimilate anyone in your way or kill it. And then they always come flying in a huge black cube. ?!
That was your turn to make me laugh, Noah )
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speaking of black cubes. Am i the only one who think that mecca and sunnism served as the role model for the borg in star trek? Look alike, talk alike, be alike, assimilate anyone in your way or kill it. And then they always come flying in a huge black cube. ?!
Peace
Strangely enough I drew that parrallel too -)
Perhaps they drew inspiration from reality?
And borgs are indeed automatons like millions of people who prostrate before the stone cube in a desert!
Regards,
