To those who claim bowing/prostrating towards Kaaba is shirk
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Firstly, does 'sujud' have the meaning of a physical prostration? If it does
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Did Bani Israil enter the city ON THIER FOREHEADS (2/5
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Can you possibly fall prostration ON YOUR CHIN (17/109)? please send a pic if you can do this.
Bowing to the physical structure cannot be compared to any sajda made in al-quraan.
Khi- Salam. Firstly this is totally irrelevant. 2ndly 'sujood' can mean BOTH physical and non-physical. I was just giving an example that doing "sujood" towards kaaba(whatever that means or is interpretetd as) CANNOT BE TERMED SHIRK. Period. GOD Bless!
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a very simple question..........
How does prostrating to a stone house be same as prostrating to God (an unseen source) ?
peace
Khi- Salam. Did i say it was the same? For me it is a disciplinary act instructed by GOD. GOD is everywhere so we already do sujood(the mental one) towards Him always if we are believers. What i was saying is that doing 'sujood' towards kaaba cannot be shirk. Angels were also commanded to do "sujood" before Adam, wernt they? Yet they were clearly worshipping GOD, NOT Adam. GOD Bless!
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Khi- Salam. Firstly this is totally irrelevant. 2ndly 'sujood' can mean BOTH physical and non-physical. I was just giving an example that doing "sujood" towards kaaba(whatever that means or is interpretetd as) CANNOT BE TERMED SHIRK. Period. GOD Bless!
Your argument used the metaphor of Adam to say that since angels did sajda to other than Allah, we can do the same to a gigantic brick in the middle of the desert.
I am attempting to question THAT argument by asserting that nowhere in al-quraan does sujud signify a physical act. If im right, then your argument with Adam fails. That's how its relevant.
So please show me where in al-quraan does sajda imply a physical act.
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Khi- Salam. Firstly this is totally irrelevant. 2ndly 'sujood' can mean BOTH physical and non-physical. I was just giving an example that doing "sujood" towards kaaba(whatever that means or is interpretetd as) CANNOT BE TERMED SHIRK. Period. GOD Bless!
Your argument used the metaphor of Adam to say that since angels did sajda to other than Allah, we can do the same to a gigantic brick in the middle of the desert.
I am attempting to question THAT argument by asserting that nowhere in al-quraan does sujud signify a physical act. If im right, then your argument with Adam fails. That's how its relevant.
So please show me where in al-quraan does sajda imply a physical act.
Khi- Salam. By definition of the word it can mean a physical act. That is enough. And yes verses like
The magicians fell prostrate.
Comment This could be physical indeed. In olden times people used to physically bow down in order to show respect.
He raised his parents upon the throne. They fell prostrate before him....
Comment Again this can well be physical prostration.
But anyways "sujood" either means physical prostration OR to submit, one of the two. So now youd still have a problem with the angels submitting to Adam instead of GOD, wouldnt you? Id say a mental submission to someone is equal if not even more significant at times than a physical prostration. So if your trying to claim that doing a physical sajda infornt of somebody is shirk while doing a mental sajda towards the same is not, is absurd to say the least. GOD Bless! -
The magicians fell prostrate.
Comment This could be physical indeed. In olden times people used to physically bow down in order to show respect.Khi, what you should do is, find how its used in a causal sense. 17/109 tells u what it is in a causal sense. Because there's no way it can possibly be physical act if your chin is involved. From there, you map it back to non-causal usage. The Quran doesnt tell you to look through 'olden times'. Its not a book of 'olden days'. It's a here and now book, for here and now people.
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Salam,
To prove how nonsensible this assertion is one only needs to consider those Quranic verses where GOD Himself commands the angels to protrate, yes the very same word PROSTRATE, before Adam. So who do you think they were worshipping, Adam or God? See the difference? GOD Bless!
To me the word sujud in that verse did not mean prostate. It is just simply mean submit. Most people believe that malaika looks like human with wing. So when God ask malaika to submit before Adam, most people imagine that the angle prostrating before Adam in heaven.
Actually the verse simply means that the energy (malaika) are required to submit to human. Like the car we drive, the cell phone we use, the plane we fly, rain, wind, ocean current etc are all for our benefit. All submitting before us except iblis, which is our ego, hate, fear, lust etc.
Also in verse 230, when the malaika said that they glorifying God, it is just simply mean that, the energy in the heaven and earth work perfectly in harmony with each other. Example like trees provide oxygen, bird and insect pollinate the plant, the giant whale cannot survive without tiny plankton and giant redwood cannot survive without insect.
Regards
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The magicians fell prostrate.
Comment This could be physical indeed. In olden times people used to physically bow down in order to show respect.Khi, what you should do is, find how its used in a causal sense. 17/109 tells u what it is in a causal sense. Because there's no way it can possibly be physical act if your chin is involved. From there, you map it back to non-causal usage. The Quran doesnt tell you to look through 'olden times'. Its not a book of 'olden days'. It's a here and now book, for here and now people.
Khi- Salam. But we also need to understand the use of the word in the Arabic language. Without this how can you start knowing whats in Quran. Knowledge initiates from society. One cannot ignore this obvious fact. Then ofcourse relations can be formed within the Quran to see whether a certain meaning doesnt contradict other places in it. I dont see how a physical sujood would contradict any commandments in the Quran. And whats this all about the chin. I fall prostrate on my forehead. Everyone knows how to fall prostrate so whts the argument all about? GOD Bless!
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To me the word sujud in that verse did not mean prostate. It is just simply mean submit. Most people believe that malaika looks like human with wing. So when God ask malaika to submit before Adam, most people imagine that the angle prostrating before Adam in heaven.
Khi- Salam. This was exactly my point. Do you mean to say that prostarting is worth more than "simply" submitting??? If you do id strongly disagree. The musicians bow infront of the audience out of resepect yet they would not submit themselves to them, would they?
Actually the verse simply means that the energy (malaika) are required to submit to human. Like the car we drive, the cell phone we use, the plane we fly, rain, wind, ocean current etc are all for our benefit. All submitting before us except iblis, which is our ego, hate, fear, lust etc.
Also in verse 230, when the malaika said that they glorifying God, it is just simply mean that, the energy in the heaven and earth work perfectly in harmony with each other. Example like trees provide oxygen, bird and insect pollinate the plant, the giant whale cannot survive without tiny plankton and giant redwood cannot survive without insect.
Regards
Khi- This is all fine except that you didnt get my point. I hope you understood it now. GOD Bless!
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Some here including Ayman claimed that bowing towards a physical structure cannot possibly be GOD's command and would be shirk. To prove how nonsensible this assertion is one only needs to consider those Quranic verses where GOD Himself commands the angels to protrate, yes the very same word PROSTRATE, before Adam. So who do you think they were worshipping, Adam or God? See the difference? GOD Bless!
Where does The God command us to bow and/or prostrate to/towards a black stone cube? Please give a reference.
Whether one interprets "sujud" as physical or non-physical, it is an indisputable fact that we are NEVER commanded to prostrate to/towards a black stone cube. You are free to prostrate to your idol all you want like the majority of sectarians and your forefathers, but don't lie about The God and claim that He commanded us to do so.
Peace on who followed the guidance,
Ayman
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speaking of black cubes. Am i the only one who think that mecca and sunnism served as the role model for the borg in star trek? Look alike, talk alike, be alike, assimilate anyone in your way or kill it. And then they always come flying in a huge black cube. ?!
Peace
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speaking of black cubes. Am i the only one who think that mecca and sunnism served as the role model for the borg in star trek? Look alike, talk alike, be alike, assimilate anyone in your way or kill it. And then they always come flying in a huge black cube. ?!
That was your turn to make me laugh, Noah )
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speaking of black cubes. Am i the only one who think that mecca and sunnism served as the role model for the borg in star trek? Look alike, talk alike, be alike, assimilate anyone in your way or kill it. And then they always come flying in a huge black cube. ?!
Peace
Strangely enough I drew that parrallel too -)
Perhaps they drew inspiration from reality?
And borgs are indeed automatons like millions of people who prostrate before the stone cube in a desert!
Regards,
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SaLaM Noah
the pet rock in the corner of the kabaa DOES concern me a lot,
Brother, the little stone is not mentioned in the Quran. So dont concern yourself with it.
LT, i swear i dont know where you come up with those ideas!!! looooooooooollll Kabbah and the Borg??????? WTF!!!!!!!!!! rotfl
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Brother, the little stone is not mentioned in the Quran. So dont concern yourself with it.
Jaxal, if that place has 'the house' , then it would not contain these idolatrous symbols. Remember, the place actualises the metaphor of Ibrahim, the imam for mankind (2/125).
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SaLaM mquran
Those of us who were sunnis, didnt leave sunnism for no reason. I know the flaws of sunnis. Its just unfortunate that the Sacred House / Shrine has such things around it. Again, if i went to the pilgrimmage, i wouldnt kiss that stone coz i see no reason to. But just becoz Kabbah has this stone by its side, wont deter me from going.
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Salam Khi, All,
Salam,
Some here including Ayman claimed that bowing towards a physical structure cannot possibly be GOD's command and would be shirk. To prove how nonsensible this assertion is one only needs to consider those Quranic verses where GOD Himself commands the angels to prostrate, yes the very same word PROSTRATE, before Adam. So who do you think they were worshipping, Adam or God? See the difference? GOD Bless!I think that Kyle's (Idolfree1) explanation of Malaykah as "forces" would make sense. The "forces" could be the keys of Adam's organs, because only when Adam's creation was completed (with the Rooh) that the forces were ordered to "function" and be at Adam's service. Those forces were ordered to be under the command of Adam to prostrate to him.
Iblees refused to work for Adam's benefit.
As you can see from the Ayat of Adam's creation, that the Malaykah were not agreeing about the creation of Adam because of all the bloodshed that will result from Adam's creation Blood resulting from destruction of the organs.. It is as if the Malaykah were telling Allah that their service to Adam would be a horrible waste, as Adam will not respect their submission to him and would kill and destroy fellow humans mercilessly. So the Malaykah were exclaiming to Allah that wouldn't it be better if their job remained as just Tasbee7 and Taqdees to Allah? -
Salam all,
The Commentary of Maulana Muhammad Ali about V 230
SECTION 4 Greatness of Man and Need for Revelation
30 And when thy Lord said to the angels (a), I am going to place a ruler (b) in the earth, they said Wilt Thou place in it such as make mischief in it and shed blood (c)? And we celebrate Thy praise and extol Thy holiness (d). He said Surely I know what you know not.
30a. The Arabic word for angels is mal?ikah, which is the plural of malak. It is said to be derived, either from malaka which means he controlled, and refers to the angelsfunction of controlling the forces of nature on the physical side of life, or from alk, to send,the original being in this case malak, contracted into malak, and refers to the angels spiritual function of acting as intermediaries between God and man. Both root ideas thus contain a reference to the principal functions ascribed to the angels. The existence of such intermediaries has been recognized by righteous men in all ages and all countries.
It will also be seen, from what has been said above as to the functions of the angelic beings, that All?hs saying to them is really the expression of an intention which is to be brought into execution. It is not a conversation, or a consultation with the angels; it is an expression of the Divine will to those intermediary beings who are entrusted by the Divine
Being with the execution of it. It may also be added that by the angels here are meant the angels entrusted with this particular affair, not all the angels of the universe (IJ).30b. This shows the high place that man was destined to hold in the whole of creation. The original word khal?fah (from khalafa, meaning he came after or succeeded another that had perished or died), means primarily a successor, and hence the supreme or the greatest ruler who supplies the place of him who has been before him (T, LL).
IMsd and IAb explain khal?fah as meaning one who judges among, or rules, the creatures of All?h by His command (IJ). What is stated here is an allegorical description of the preference of man above the whole of the creation on this earth, and then of the election of those righteous servants of All?h from among men themselves who lead others into the right path. One of the signicances suggested by the commentators is that the word khal?fah here refers to the children of Adam, i.e., the whole of mankind. The correctness of this view is corroborated by the Qur?n itself, which says, referring to the whole of mankind
and He it is Who has made you successors in the land (or rulers in the earth) (6165), the word used for rulers being khal?if, plural of khal?fah. Hence the reference here seems to be to the whole of mankind. References to Adam are contained in 23039 and in 359; 71125; 1528 44; 176165; 1850; 20115124 and 387185.30c. God declares His will to the angels, the controlling forces of nature, to create man who is meant to rule the forces of nature, and to whom, therefore, power to rule is to be delegated. Being entrusted with such great powers, man could use them rightly or wrongly, and it is to this fear of abuse of power that the angels give expression, they themselves being only executors of Divine will in which they have no choice. The concluding words of this verse show that God knew that man would abuse the power given to him, but He also knew that he would turn it to good use as well. The whole history of man is briey written in this one verse. Man is the greatest killer on this earth but he also turns the gifts of God to the best use. The angels speak of the darker side of the picture of humanity, but to God was known the brighter side as well as the darker side of this picture. Hence the words, I know what you know not.
