How Authentic is the Quran?
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Peace Tony,
How Authentic is the Quran? Is it free from corruption? How can we be sure that it was exactly the same Quran revealed to Muhammad?
There is a mathematical code embedded into the Koran http//www.submission.org/miracle/
The most significant patterns are the basmala-letters, each basmala-word, the number of basmalas, the number of suras, the numbers of verses, each being a multiple of 19, as well as the pattern of the initial Q, and sura 74 talking about the mathematicle code.
Before verifying, make sure that you have removed the 2 injected verses 9128-129 from the Koran-manuscripts, which do not belong to the Koran.
Peace,
Omar -
Are you paranoid about sunnis?
No, just asking the brother what his sources are. Are YOU paranoid about being questioned? If so, I suggest you go back to the blind-faith, ritual-centred game of sunnism. Trust me, its comfort zone is huge. A lifetime of languising awaits you.
Brother not everyone who doubts the the authenticity of the Quran is a sunni ok? lolll . Or is that you dont know the numerous additions to the Quran?
Additions to the Quran or Editions of the Quran?
Let me ask you something how do YOU know the reports claiming those additions or editions are true? They come from non-quranic sources.
If your criteria of 'correctness' comes from other than the Quran, then you cannot possibly be 'quranic', can you? If you trust some parchment some person found in the ruins of some mosque, then you must be an orientalist. If you trust some report by a guy who lived 250 years after the prophet, you're a sunni. Don't shy away from these labels, Jaxal. Quranic people judge by the Quran. Other criterias represent other gods.
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Looooooooooooooool So what now? you think this is an arab conspiracy???? Comonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn
Jaxal, get over your identity crisis. You're a sunni through and through. That's why you believe this nonsense about the additions to the Quran. You're just like this guy www.aperfectquran.co.uk so why don't you meet up with him and plan more derogations against the Quran? Enjoy it, there are a billion of you in the world. People who accept all sorts of derogatory nonsense about the quran just because some guy with a 'muslim name' they never met said so.
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SaLaM mquran
Ok maquran, seriously, you need to stop calling me a sunni for no reason. When then are two copies of the Quran in front of you. And one of them is changed. Only a blind fool will deny such facts. There is a thread on the forum on this. I sujjest you find it and read it.
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SaLaM mquran
What are you getting so worked up about?? chill! Chill and then read the post. Im sure you will find it if you search. U dont have to believe me.
Good enough reason for you?
Brother, its of no concern to me what YOU think of me. I only care about Allah and His opinion of me )
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Hehe, im not worked up at all. I just think you should know where your viewpoints are from. To get you to quote the quran, the source you claim to cling to is equivalent of getting the Pope to quote the Puranas to justify Catholicism. There's no problem personally from me, but if you post in the forum, people tend to answer you if you're posting claptrap like 'God teaches democracy'. Call it a law of nature if you will but that's what happens.
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What a confusion a complete mess where everybody is trying to sell their version of religion. Doubts about Qur'an authenticity, verifying Qur'an by errorenous Code 19, trying to find the hidden message of Qur'an.
There is no way that we are going to unite as muslims.
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Peace be upon you
Roshan;However, there are (apparently) 7 different translations of the Quran in circulation today.
<<Not translations, RECITATIONS (qiraat). This is of course false because al-quraan was revealed in 'lisaanun arabiyun mubiin' (clear arabic language).>>
Yes, you are correct. This is what I had meant to say.
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I read this in a sunni book called 'ulum ul quran'. This is interesting because in the progressive muslims quran translation there is a verse that describes some people who 'ripped the Quran into shreds'. This verse is translated differently in other (sunni) translations. I have tried to look up the word 'ripped into shreds' up, but my very basic Arabic dictionary did not have the root. Off hand I cannot remember the verse, but I am sure others will enlighten you!Its 15/91 but what is your point about this verse?>>
My point was that perhaps God via the Quran predicts that the Quran would be altered.
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And of course, let us not forget the speech marks. They are, of course, a corruption as they are not present in earlier versions.Where does the quran tell you to look for 'earlier versions' or even original manuscripts (masaahif) please?>>
The Quran is the Quran. There are no versions. But clearly if you look at a 'Quran' today there are speech marks in it. In older versions of the 'Quran' there were none. This is an addition.
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So, to sum up, I find it very difficult to believe that the Quran has not been corrupted. However, I doubt that the extent to which it has been corrupted is that great .Are you a sunni or an orientalist?>>
I am trying to be a Muslim. Because of this I am not afraid to openly minded discuss issues. It is dissapointing that your mindset is still as those from whom we have tried to escape. In fact, it is the first time that I have seen such comments from a Muslim on this forum.
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Ulum ul Quran is a good book to have concerning this matter. Also, Layth's intro at the beginning of 'The Message' is also interesting.Ulumul quran by Ahmad Von Denfer is based on HADITH AND SEERAH. So can I ask you please, who verifies the information von Denfer gives you ? You don't mind turning that book onto the Quran but who judges that book?
I accept your point, but you do not understand mine. There are books with slightly different variations which are all called the 'Quran'. This is either true or not. From what I have read it is. The Sunnis choose to explain this through their religious boooks which state that God gave Muhammad 7 versions of the Quran. But either way, either we have only one 'Quran' in (mainstream) circulation or more than one.
Roshan
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Salaamun alaikum Roshan,
My point was that perhaps God via the Quran predicts that the Quran would be altered.
Altered? 'Adheen' means doesn't mean 'altered' . See 4/46 for 'altering' words from their right places. The word 'tahreef' is used.
Secondly, Allah has promised to protect az-zikr (15/9) and al-quraan is said to be the posessor of az-zikr (dhi az-zikr - 38/2) then no, Allah would be contradicting himself if he said the Quran would be altered.
The Quran is the Quran. There are no versions. But clearly if you look at a 'Quran' today there are speech marks in it. In older versions of the 'Quran' there were none. This is an addition.
Yes, where are you getting this 'older versions' from please? Who told you that these 'older versions' are al-quraan as Allah mentioned it?
I am trying to be a Muslim. Because of this I am not afraid to openly minded discuss issues. It is dissapointing that your mindset is still as those from whom we have tried to escape. In fact, it is the first time that I have seen such comments from a Muslim on this forum.
That's just the point. You're not 'openly' discussing anything. What you're doing is accepting definitions and presuppositions given by other than al-quraan itself, namely by Sunnis and Orientalists. The 7 qiraat nonsense came from Bukhari who surprise, surprise is the best purveyor of hadith! After that, you take a verse like 15/91 claim that Allah predicted its alteration! Is this open discussion?
I accept your point, but you do not understand mine. There are books with slightly different variations which are all called the 'Quran'. This is either true or not. From what I have read it is. The Sunnis choose to explain this through their religious boooks which state that God gave Muhammad 7 versions of the Quran. But either way, either we have only one 'Quran' in (mainstream) circulation or more than one.
Allah promised to protect az-zikr, the one in eminence. Rashad Khalifa tried to excise 2 verses and still called it the Quran. Did it ever reach eminence? Its the same with the Warsh. Its only known in the corner of North Africa. We need to employ the Quran to remove these attempts and believe me, when the ayats are employed, there's no issue. That's my problem with your position. You're not using the ayat but rather Sunni or Orientalist assumptions.
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Salaamun alaikum KGB,
"We" simply means everybody
Do you mean everyone who calls themselves 'muslims' ? If so, please dont expect too much. You see KGB, when a factor of similarity(i.e. CALLING themselves muslims) is made based on other than God's laws, it's not real and will not stand the test of reality. When people go to a Sunni mosque, you cannot expect the same body of people to unite to launch a total overhaul of society. These people are just there to bend over a number of times, recite blindly and get back to 'real life'.
The unity of 'muslims' in a Quranic sense can be found in 2/122-152. These guys are the real deal.
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An extract from Haykal's The Life Of Muhammad
Muir Rejects the Forgery of the Qur'an
The orientalists have written a great deal on this subject. We can select a passage by Sir William Muir from his book, The Life of Mahomet, in the hope that those who claim that the Qur'an has been forged will realize wherein they have erred, to the detriment of both the truth and their own scholarship. It should be remembered that our author, Muir, is a Christian, an engage and proud Christian, as well as a missionary who never misses occasion to criticize the Prophet of Islam or its scripture.
When he came to speak of the Qur'an and the veracity and precision of its text, he wrote
"The divine revelation was the cornerstone of Islam. The recital of a passage from it formed an essential part of daily prayer public and private; and its perusal and repetition were enforced as a duty and a privilege fraught with religious merit. This is the universal voice of early tradition, and may be gathered also from the revelation itself. The Coran was accordingly committed to memory more or less by every adherent of Islam, and the extent to which it could be recited was one of the chief distinctions of nobility in the early Moslem empire. The custom of Arabia favoured the task. Passionately fond of poetry, yet possessed of but limited means and skill in committing to writing the effusions of their bards, the Arabs had long been habituated to imprint these, as well as the tradition of genealogical and other tribal events, on the living tablets of their hearts. The recollective faculty was thus cultivated to the highest pitch; and it was applied, with all the ardour of an awakened spirit, to the Coran. Such was the tenacity of their memory, and so great their power of application, that several of Mahomet's followers, according to early tradition, could, during his life-time, repeat with scrupulous accuracy the entire revelation.
"However retentive the Arab memory, we should still have regarded with distrust a transcript made entirely from that source. But there is good reason for believing that many fragmentary copies, embracing amongst them the whole Coran, or nearly the whole, were made by Mahomet's followers during his life. Writing was without doubt generally known at Mecca long before Mahomet assumed the prophetical office. Many of his followers are expressly mentioned as employed by the Prophet at Medina in writing his letters or despatches . . . Some of the poorer Meccan captives taken at Badr were offered their release on condition that they would teach a certain number of the ignorant citizens of Medina to write. And although the people of Medina were not so generally educated as those of Mecca, yet many are distinctly noticed as having been able to write before Islam. The ability thus existing, it may be safely inferred that the verses which were so indefatigably committed to memory, would be likewise committed carefully to writing.
"We also know that when a tribe first joined Islam, Mahomet was in the habit of deputing one or more of his followers to teach them the Coran and the requirements of the faith. We are frequently informed that they carried written instructions with them on the latter point, and they would naturally provide themselves also with transcripts of the more important parts of the Revelation, especially those upon which the ceremonies of Islam were founded, and such as were usually recited at the public prayers. Besides the reference in the Coran to its own existence in a written form, we have express mention made in the authentic traditions of Omar's conversion, of a copy of the 20th Sura being used by his sister's family for social and private devotional reading. This refers to a period preceding, by three or four years, the emigration to Medina. If transcripts of the revelations were made, and in common use, at that early time when the followers of Islam were few and oppressed, it is certain that they must have multiplied exceedingly when the Prophet came to power, and his Book formed the law of the greater part of Arabia.
"Such was the condition of the text of the Coran during Mahomet's life-time, and such it remained for about a year after his death, imprinted upon the hearts of his people, and fragmentary transcripts increasing daily. The two sources would correspond closely with each other; for the Coran, even while the Prophet was yet alive, was regarded with a superstitious awe as containing the very words of God; so that any variations would be reconciled by a direct reference to Mahomet himself, and after his death to the originals where they existed, or copies from the same, and to the memory of the Prophet's confidential friends and amanuenses.
"It was not till the overthrow of Moseilama, when a great carnage took place amongst the Moslems at Yemama, and large numbers of the best reciters of the Coran were slain, that a misgiving arose in Omar's mind as to the uncertainty which would be experienced regarding the text, when all those who had received it from the original source, and thence stored it in their memories, should have passed away.
I fear,' said he, addressing the Caliph Abu Bakr,that slaughter may again wax hot amongst the reciters of the Coran, in other fields of battle; and that much may be lost therefrom. Now, therefore, my advice is, that thou shouldest give speedy orders for the collection of the Coran.' Abu Bakr agreed, and thus made known his wishes to Zeid ibn Thabit, a citizen of Medina, and the Prophet's chief amanuensis 'Thou art a young man, and wise; against whom no one amongst us can cast an imputation; and thou wert wont to write down the inspired revelations of the Prophet of the Lord. Wherefore now search out the Coran, and bring it together.' So new and unexpected was the enterprise that Zeid at first shrank from it, and doubted the propriety, or even lawfulness, of attempting that which Mahomet had neither himself done nor commanded to be done. At last he yielded to the joint entreaties of Abu Bakr and Omar, and seeking out the fragments of the Coran from every quarter, 'gathered it together, from dateleaves, and tablets of white stone, and from the breasts of men.' By the labours of Zeid, these scattered and confused materials were reduced to the order and sequence in which we now find them, and in which it is said that Zeid used to repeat the Coran in the presence of Mahomet. The original copy prepared by Zeid was probably kept by Abu Bakr during the short remainder of his reign. It then came into the possession of Omar who . . . committed it to the custody of his daughter Hap hsa, the Prophet's widow. The compilation of Zeid, as embodied in this exemplar, continued during Omar's ten years' Caliphate to be the standard and authoritative text.Cont...