How Authentic is the Quran?
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Its not a matter of a conspiracies at all. Its a matter of where we are and what we're left with. I noticed this some time back when comparing the philosophies of religion and al-quraan. Al-quraan doesn't require you to play Indiana Jones and look for where Ibrahim, Musa and all the other guys are buried. Who CARES? Is God going to ask you 'o mq, at what age did Aisha marry Mohamed?' . No, he gave us the operational manual. Don't find out how your ancestors used windows. YOU read the manual and YOU use it for urself. When the test comes, it'll be on how YOU used windows to exploit the potential of your pc, not how your grandfather used it.
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SaLam Joe and mquran
Joe If moses/musa wasnt given the Torah, then who was?
mquran
Then why don't you tell us, what does a manuscript prove?
How many of you are there? Anyways, you say i cant read, yet you have seemed to miss the whole point of this thread. You say its not enough. Something is in front of your eyes. And you say you dont want to beleive it. You are a true example when God says
GOD seals their minds and their hearing, and their eyes are veiled. They have incurred severe retribution.
Truth is truth. Weather written on a paper, or sent down through Angel Gabriel. Dont be threatened by it. God asks us to accept the truth, even if it is found in the previous scriptures. If the evidence is so weak, then it should be easy to refute. So far, u have just babbled and not given any actual proof that the evidence is wrong becoz of so and so. Simply denying it is no actualy proof. Pur your words where your mouth is and bring actualy evidence to prove it wrong.
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Truth is truth. Weather written on a paper, or sent down through Angel Gabriel. Dont be threatened by it.
So anyone can write anything on a goatskin and it would be truth for you? Marvellous ! very marvellous indeed
God asks us to accept the truth, even if it is found in the previous scriptures.
Where does God tell us to accept 'what is found in PREVIOUS SCRIPTURES' ? Have you actually opened the Quran before?
If the evidence is so weak, then it should be easy to refute. So far, u have just babbled and not given any actual proof that the evidence is wrong becoz of so and so. Simply denying it is no actualy proof. Pur your words where your mouth is and bring actualy evidence to prove it wrong
There's no point in giving evidence to you. You treat the Quran like a piece of excretion anyway. You claim 'quran teaches democracy' and 'god tells us to accept the truth' WITHOUT EVER CHECKING THE BOOK. Maybe you're the new messenger or something. The first messenger who never ever opens the book because it contradicts him at every point.
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Be decent and say you cant prove it wrong. That is much more noble than to rant on and on about how something cannot be accepted when you have nothig to support that.
I can't prove it wrong, you're right but only to people like you WHO DO NOT BELIEVE IN THE BOOK. You prefer to believe the hadith , the source material for this malarkey, so that's fine. You can do whatever you want. I imagine you can't even tell me what my argument is. Care to try? You know what they say about fools keeping thier mouths shut . Want to banish the doubt ? Go on, tell me what my argument is, if you can.
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Peace,
what a cryptic dialogue you both are having. Why mquran and The Nabi speak like this to Jaxal?, mquran in this thread and The Nabi in another thread. What's the problem in speaking simple questions and answers?
Maybe you three are having lots of fun but others, me, gets nothing.
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SaLaM Elena
Actually i understand their skepticism. There was a time when I too dealt this information with hostility. But later i understood the bigger picture. God guides who He wills. Maybe in time they too will understand http//www.geocities.com/bigjaxal/s1.gif
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what a cryptic dialogue you both are having. Why mquran and The Nabi speak like this to Jaxal?, mquran in this thread and The Nabi in another thread. What's the problem in speaking simple questions and answers?
Maybe you three are having lots of fun but others, me, gets nothing.Elena, any question at all you want answering, I'd be quite happy to attempt to do so. With this person, I am unable to answer directly because he lacks the civility to answer questions directly. To this point, he cannot tell us what my argument was, even though he deems it wrong. I find this very amusing but I guess I'll have to stop soon.
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Salaam Jaxal & MQuran!
Interesting topic this is and I had to post so I can get a better understanding because at this very moment I'm in two minds whether the Quran is changed or not. Now correct me if I'm wrong Jaxal and Mquran.
I see Jaxals point that the Quran does say the Reminder is protected BUT we have different Quran's all over the world whether its additions or alterations. God says the message is protected or the physical Quran itself, maybe God is talking about the essence of the message and not the physical book itself, God knows best.
MQuran I also understand your point too that if the Quran says it is unaltered then an external source i.e old manuscript doesn't prove anything and could be a throw off to leave doubts in peoples minds. It's tricky for me because there are different versions(looking at the historical manuscripts if they are really historical which maybe scientists can prove somehow) of Quran but how do you know the ONE your studying is the right one or is the true message of God.
It's all up in the air for me guys so i'm just throwing ideas at you to debate further so I get a better understanding and also for the benefit of other readers because at the moment im ? lol
PEACE
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SaLaM 2Pac
There are 3 reasons why i have no doubt nor any problem stating that the Quran has been changed/altered
1] I have seen it with my own eyes.
2] There are , as you said, different versions of the Quran out there which had additions to it so that its easier to pronounce.
3] I dont believe Quran is THE book. This one is a bit hard to explain, becoz it is my own person belief, but i will try.Firstly, God has sent us 3 scriptures. Torah, Gospel and Quran. God asks us to rfer to the previous scripture when and if we are in doubt. This shows that we should follow the truth that is in the previous scriptures. I agree the previous scriptures have been changed. But not completely. Find the truth in there, and follow it.
Second, in revelations, there is a passage where God tells the prophet to stop writing. Something is said by God which is unkown. therefore, i dont think God has given us a complete message/scripture. I couldnt find any verse in the Quran which says that Quran is a complete book. Being a detailed book and being a complete book are two different things. Agree? I think the complete message/scripture is with God. THAT is the message/scriputre that is guarded. Becoz if you come to think of it, there is NOTHING stopping me to add 1 letter to the Quran and print it. chances are no one will evennotice it. I have a publishing business so i DO have the means to do it. How will God protect it? Will God come down and stop me? Will a bolt of lightening strike me? I dont think so.
LAstly, If you DO agree with the above, then there literally is no way i can change the message/scripture. We know from the goespel that it isnt a completel book. And i cant find any verse in the Quran that says that this is a complete book.
PLUS, we have evidence in front of us. Anyone one is welcomed to view the thread in my post. If it was hear say, i wouldnt beleive it either. But its right in front of our eyes. And if it is such a weak evidence then we should have no problem refuting it. But so far no one has.
Hope this clear things up for you. http//www.geocities.com/bigjaxal/s1.gif
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2PAC MQuran I also understand your point too that if the Quran says it is unaltered then an external source i.e old manuscript doesn't prove anything and could be a throw off to leave doubts in peoples minds. It's tricky for me because there are different versions(looking at the historical manuscripts if they are really historical which maybe scientists can prove somehow) of Quran but how do you know the ONE your studying is the right one or is the true message of God.
Salaam 2pac,
Can you please tell me what a 'scientific' and 'historical manuscript' is, please? Is it fair that when al-quraan has set its own criteria for authentication, we chuck an alien criteria at it?
How can we possibly know where those manuscripts came from? If we believe those manuscripts we must - by that same alien criteria - believe in hadith.
Jaxal 1] I have seen it with my own eyes.
He saw goatskins which some guy said was the Quran. Wow, major revelation ! We could get some goatskin and write the quran on it, thus possibly correcting him but he's not worth the bother, really. Its good to have this guy around when sunnis come in. They'd chuck the hadith far more quickly.
2] There are , as you said, different versions of the Quran out there which had additions to it so that its easier to pronounce
Utter rubbish once again. WHOLE WORDS have been added. This is what comes from being lazy to read. You simply get false info.
Firstly, God has sent us 3 scriptures. Torah, Gospel and Quran. God asks us to rfer to the previous scripture when and if we are in doubt. This shows that we should follow the truth that is in the previous scriptures. I agree the previous scriptures have been changed. But not completely. Find the truth in there, and follow it.
Utter rubbish, nowhere does the Quran EVER use the words 'previous' scripture. 2pac, why don't you ask him for evidence. Lets see if he actually listens to you.
How on earth is he going to 'find the truth in the 'previous scripture'' , I wonder? Is al-quraan going to be the criteria ? If it is, then what's the point of having the 'previous scripture' if al-quraan already said what is being said?
Second, in revelations, there is a passage where God tells the prophet to stop writing. Something is said by God which is unkown. therefore, i dont think God has given us a complete message/scripture
I think we need to contact Broadmoor and have this guy committed. He's obviously seeing things and live in a cloud cuckoo land where in his Quran, God told the prophet to STOP writing. This verse , of course, NOWHERE EXISTS in the entire al-quraan. But this is what comes from either pretending to study al-quraan when one hasn't or reading the quran as one would a trashy novel. Its really tickling to see the kind of nonsense that's said in here, honestly. First, it was 'god teaches democracy' and to do hajj in mecca and now this.
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SaLaM mquran
Loooooooooooooooooooooollllllllllll why so much hate??? You need to watch Anger Management.
An angry man, shuts his eyes and opens his mouth.
Thats for you. Dont be an angry man mquran. You need to calm down. This is a forum for discussion. Be decent. Not everyone believes in some crap like Quran is anti-democratic or that the criteria to be a messenger is to have good presentation skills. You need to learn how to not take things personally. rotfl
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Salaam 2pac,
Can you please tell me what a 'scientific' and 'historical manuscript' is, please? Is it fair that when al-quraan has set its own criteria for authentication, we chuck an alien criteria at it?
If scientists can prove that goatskin is dated close to Prophet Muhammeds time then it might be something worth looking into because if there's different versions of the Quran which ONE is the correct one. Please tell me what criteria has al-quraan used for authentication for the correct one??Sorry if I come across as being pessimist but things like this need to be addressed.
PEACE
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Thank You TheNabi & Wakas but it still doesn't answer my question
What criteria does al-quraan use for authentication for the real al-quraan....if there are many versions whether it be small letter additions or deletions how do we know which one is the REAL thing???
Please do explain ?
PEACE
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Jaxal Thats for you. Dont be an angry man mquran. You need to calm down. This is a forum for discussion. Be decent. Not everyone believes in some crap like Quran is anti-democratic or that the criteria to be a messenger is to have good presentation skills. You need to learn how to not take things personally
Angry? Does Homer Simpson make me angry? You have the same effect on me as Homer Simspon. If you believe the quran teaches democracy, why don't you prove it. It will involve reading and opening the quran though, that's the thing. You can't even understand a simple deduction, its shameful. Go back to preschool, Homer. It'll help, believe me.
2PACIf scientists can prove that goatskin is dated close to Prophet Muhammeds time then it might be something worth looking into because if there's different versions of the Quran which ONE is the correct one. Please tell me what criteria has al-quraan used for authentication for the correct one??Sorry if I come across as being pessimist but things like this need to be addressed
Ok, lets say they can 'prove' the approximation of the date. Does that prove Mohamed approved of it? The jump from date approximation to Mohamed's authentication is rather far. Can I ask you, can someone else not have written it? Can you know for sure? If you cannot, then I suggest you employ the Quran's internal criteria. Homer Simpson obviously doesn't have the brains to do it and he's a sunni-wannabe anyway. Why don't you give it a try?
Al-quraan starts with the assertion of the protection of az-zikr. Az-zikr, if you check 68/4 , means 'the one in eminence'. This is your starting point. Go anywhere in the world and check for the one in eminence. Al-quraan anywhere is one and the same. Secondly, its in 'lisaanun arabiyun mubiin' (16/103). Check your manuscripts and you will see that its ambiguities are very telling. I mentioned before that Ayman tried to manipulate the meaning of 30/1 , saying instead of the romans being defeated, the romans defeated. He could only do that to an ambigious text, but never to the one in eminence. Third and fourthly, please see wakas and joe's post.
hope that helps.
