THE VAST MAJORITY OF MUSLIMS...ARE NOT MUSLIM AT ALL?
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Salam PBM,
Unfortunately, openburhan.com is down at the moment, however, when I put haneefan into the phonetic search at Islamic Cities, I did not find haneefan to be associated with the Last Prophet. Now, according to your logic, he could not have been "totally dissociated from shirik".
Is this argument meant to affect me in some way? I have no sentiments towards the messenger If he wasn't totally dissociated, thats not my problem is it? FYI, he was inspired to follow ibrahim (16/123) but once again, your argument is not relevant at all.
Straightforward, does suggest "unhibited"/bold etc., especially, in the time of Abraham
It might to you and that's your right. I prefer Quranic definitions.
Salima, from which the term muslim derives, does not support your conjecture that a muslim can be a polytheist.
Some questions here
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What does a munafiiq resemble outwardly?
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This munafiq guy, what does he harbour in his heart?
I think you will notice that, Allah, doesn't say they will wish they had been haneefan muslim, but muslim. You will further notice the contrasting of kafirun with Muslim. Kafiruns and hypocrites are polytheists...muslims, haneefan or otherwise, are not.
I disagree. To kafireen, all they see is 'muslim', they cannot tell the difference between either point. A haneefan muslimaan rejects the ego god, for example. Its not possible to see that happening. Its something inner.
On the contrary, being iman of the nations is another issue. Had he not been muslim first, then he could not have been given the title of Iman to the nations. My question stands...as a muslim, do you think you could fully compare yourself to Abraham? Yes or no?
ANOTHER issue ? It's right there in the context. He fulfilled God's concepts and Allah made him imam to humankind. How can it be another issue?
I ask you to please desist from these personal questions. We're discussing something theoretical. As I told you, if i was comparable to Ibrahim, i'd be imam of humankind but clearly im not.
Once they return to what?! These people were not Muslims in the first place so how did they become muslims again?! As far as oaths and agreements go, the polytheist, were not required by Allah to give up their beliefs before entering into certain agreements with the muslims or vice versa. If a muslim turns back from faith, which certainly has happened, is happening, and will continue to happen in the future, then, that individual is no longer muslim, but a munafiq. Now, of course, a munafiq can repent and become muslim again, however, if one is not a muslim, then, one is a polytheist. These terms are referring to particular states of action/being
Return to the covenant. They became muslim from returning and establishing salaat and rendering zakaat.
From your post, you consider 'ad-deen' as faith, 'tauba' as repent, and 'muslim' as some spiritual term. However, you forget that a munafiq doesn't automatically show his nifaaq
They were that day nearer to Unbelief than to Faith, saying with their lips what was not in their hearts but God hath full knowledge of all they conceal. (3/167)
I'm not forgetting anything, but I think you are. Does Allah not know how to define His Words? I repeat my question Allah, has defined the term muslim, as one who is not a polytheist. Are you going to take it upon yourself to change the definition to mean that a muslim can be a polytheist? Wouldn't that contradict Allah directly (see ayat 151 again)?
Answered above.
One can harbor all sorts of things in one's heart. Even the Messenger Yunus, harbored doubts...did he cease being a Muslim? Was he less of a Muslim than Abraham? Remember, we are commanded to make no distinctions between Allah's prophets and Messengers. Look, harboring ill thoughts of shirk ( taking something else along with or exclusive of Allah, for one's guidance) doesn't undo one being a Muslim, however, carrying out thoughts of shirk into practice certainly would.
Right, now you introduce the dimension of 'practice'. Presumably, the opposite of practice is theory , or in this case, in the heart. This is precisely what im trying to tell you. A muslim isn't the same as haneefan muslim for precisely this reason. Remember, Ibrahim went to Allah with qalbeen saliim, so his heart was in it).
You see kufr, muslim as a discrete block. I don't. To me, its possible to increase kufr just like imaan.
Please post the ayat where Allah says that being haneefan muslim precludes one from reneging and turning back from faith/this possibility is nullified. You are simply extrapolating and assigning this value to this term.
No, thats my interpretation of 'maa kaana minal musyrikeen'. If one's being is free from shirik, then the possibility of reneging isn't there.
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Peace Wakas,
Maybe its just me, but I get confused trying to work out what you mean sometimes. But I'll answer what I think you're asking...
Dude, you know me. Do you think im gonna be planning a hajj trip for us or something?
As per your example, an 'islamic' domain. I assumed by that you meant a state.
Well no, a nation state is something else. An Islamic domain is any space where the laws of islam is enacted. It could be your house and garden or neighbourhood. No formal declaration necessary.
Being 'muslim' is personal between you and The God. Can you clarify what you meant by the latter question above
Dude, how can it be personal? You can only be muslim by submitting to God's laws, man. That external. Im just saying, being muslim is something outward. Your heart may be in it, but it may also not be in it.
If you're saying its impossible to be a 'muslim' without knowing whats in 'al quran', then I disagree. The God's laws are not only expounded in 'al quran' but they can also be found in the nature/essence of man. A user can successfully utilise an operating system without a manual. The manual is for those who wish to advance
you know there's no way i'd say you need al-quraan to be muslim . But you do need the book of nature if you like, thats al-kitaab. So you can either submit knowingly or guessingly. So it'd be better to have the manual but its not necessary, of course.
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Salaams PB,
You said
"022.017
YUSUFALI Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians, Christians, Magians, and Polytheists,- Allah will judge between them on the Day of Judgment for Allah is witness of all things.Quote
Why is Allah Judging the polytheist if they are indeed where unforgivable?The ayah doesn't say anything about Allah forgiving the polytheists, it simply says that Allah will judge between them, however, according to ayah 4116, the judgment will be unforgiveness. Consider the following ayahs"
Why on earth will you or anybody judge someone if they arn?t going to have a chance?
I will say it again
4116 Allah forgiveth not (The sin of) joining other gods with Him; but He forgiveth whom He pleaseth other sins than this one, who joins other gods with Allah, Hath strayed far, far away (from the right).
We need to identify what is associating ? to my knowledge we associate when we do Zulm, when we are Zalim because then we do obey other then Allah or act in opposition to Allah ? now that is associating , and simply creating idols is not associating.
People going around stone structures or bowing to idols is not Associating at all because we are not acting in opposition to the nature of Allah/T he attributes.
Salaam.
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We need to identify what is associating to my knowledge we associate when we do Zulm, when we are Zalim because then we do obey other then Allah or act in opposition to Allah now that is associating , and simply creating idols is not associating.
Kufr is zulm (al-kafireen hum az-zalimeen, see 2/254) and shirik is kufr (see interchangability between al-mushrikoon and al-kafireen in 9/1-4) so you're right there. But i think u should find 'zulm's definition from the quran and not lanes.
People going around stone structures or bowing to idols is not Associating at all because we are not acting in opposition to the nature of Allah/T he attributes
Brother Mz, may I see evidence for this please?
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PEACE, MQURAN,
PBM Unfortunately, openburhan.com is down at the moment, however, when I put haneefan into the phonetic search at Islamic Cities, I did not find haneefan to be associated with the Last Prophet. Now, according to your logic, he could not have been "totally dissociated from shirik".
Is this argument meant to affect me in some way? I have no sentiments towards the messenger If he wasn't totally dissociated, thats not my problem is it? FYI, he was inspired to follow ibrahim (16/123) but once again, your argument is not relevant at all.
On the contrary, this is your problem, hence, it does affect you. What are you kidding me?! The following are your statements on the definition haneefan or what you "think" its definition is
A. MQURAN I prefer Quranic definitions.
O.k. then give us the precise Quranic definition of haneefan. I don't went your conjecture as to what its definition is or your theory of what its definition is or what you think its definition. I want to post what you KNOW to be the precise Quranic definition. To aide you in this task, please refer to the following definitions and ayats
Main Entry "I"...THINK to have as an opinion to regard as.
Main Entry OPINION belief stronger than impression and less strong than positive knowledge.
Main Entry IMPRESSION a vague idea in which some confidence is placed.
Main Entry POSITIVE not speculative incontestable independent of changing circumstances.
Main Entry KNOW be convinced or certain of.
Main Entry CERTAIN known or proved to be true indisputable, dependable, reliable.
Main Entry KNOWLEDGE the fact or condition of knowing something with familiarity gained through experience or association.
Main Entry FACT the quality of being actual something that has actual existence a piece of information presented as having objective reality- in fact in truth.
Main Entry ACTUAL existing in fact or reality not false or apparent.
Main EntryTRUTH the state of being the case fact the body of real things, events, and facts actuality.
Main EntryREAL not artificial, fraudulent, illusory, or apparent occurring in fact.
Hence, when one loses focus of the above ayat and definitions, the following is the result
5328 And they have no knowledge of it; they do not follow anything but conjecture, and surely conjecture does not avail against the truth at all.
6116 And if you obey/follow the majority of those in the earth, they will lead you astray from Allah's way; they follow nothing but conjecture and they only lie.
Main Entry CONJECTURE supposition inference from defective or presumptive evidence b a conclusion deduced by surmise or guesswork.
Main Entry RAMA to speak conjecturally.
B. MQURAN It means as the Quran implies, a total dissociation from shirik. The phrase 'maa kaana' indicates this.
I don't want what implications, I want definites. As I replied to you previously, haneefan, is not used in regard to the Last Prophet, hence, according to your logic, he was never totally dissociated from shirk. These are your words now prove them with Quranic facts. Supposition, indications, conjecture, theories are not facts.
C. If haneefan muslim implies 'maa kaana minal musyrikeen' (never was he associted with shirik), then what's the point of having it there if it means exactly the same thing as 'muslim' ? In effect , 'haneefan muslimaan' would be 'muslim muslim' ?
I don't want implications, I want what you KNOW. Your saying haneefan would mean "muslim muslim", is simply your conjecture which you wish to elevate to Quranic fact. Haneefan, according to The Dict. of the Holy Quran, means straightforward. None of its definitions supports your definition of haneefan. At least, please post a dictionary definition which defines and comes to the conclusion of haneefan as you do.
D. MQURAN Im just pointing out to you, that being a 'muslim' but not haneefa muslim doesnt preclude the possibility of reneging.
E. MQURAN A haneefan muslimaan rejects the ego god, for example.
O.k. then give us the precise Quranic definition of haneefan and where Allah says what you claim in quotes D and E. Remember now, I don't want your conjectures/implications as to what its definition is or your theory of what its definition is or what you "think" its definition. I want to post what you KNOW to be the precise Quranic definition of haneefan is.
BTW, you have not answered the following yet
152 Often will those who disbelieve wish that they had been Muslims.
I think you will notice that, Allah, doesn't say they will wish they had been haneefan muslim, but muslim. If haneefan is totally free from shirk, as you claim it means, and, as you know, Allah, will not forgive shirk, why, then, didn't Allah say "Often will those who disbelieve wish that they had been Haneefan Muslims", who, according to you, have no possibility of being in shirk?
PBM Please post the ayat where Allah says that being haneefan muslim precludes one from reneging and turning back from faith/this possibility is nullified. You are simply extrapolating and assigning this value to this term.
No, thats my interpretation of 'maa kaana minal musyrikeen'. If one's being is free from shirik, then the possibility of reneging isn't there.
I'm not concerned with your interpretation, I'm concerned with what you KNOW is Quranic fact. Allah says
733 Say the things that my Lord hath indeed made HARAM are shameful deeds...and saying things about Allah of which you have no knowledge.
1736 And do not pursue/follow pursue that of which you have no knowledge; for every act of hearing, or of seeing or of (feeling in) the heart will be enquired into (on the Day of Reckoning).
I will respond to the rest of your post once you've Quranically cleared up the above.
Looking forward to your reply.
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Salaams PB, MQuran,
Where does it say making idols is shirk?Just that I can?t recall.
Aren?t the following Ayah?s about Shirkists?
022.017
YUSUFALI Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians, Christians, Magians, and Polytheists,- Allah will judge between them on the Day of Judgment for Allah is witness of all things.005.069
YUSUFALI Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.Why are these people being judged ,yet they do Shirk?
So where does it say shirkists are unforgivable?
Salaams.
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PEACE, MZ357,
You said
2217 Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians, Christians, Magians, and Polytheists,- Allah will judge between them on the Day of Judgment for Allah is witness of all things.
Why is Allah Judging the polytheist if they are indeed where unforgivable? Why on earth will you or anybody judge someone if they arn?t going to have a chance?
The chance that people have is right here on earth
- Allah accept the repentance of those who do evil in ignorance and repent soon afterwards; to them will Allah turn in mercy For Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom.
Once the individual crosses over to the next life, their book of deeds is sealed; there is no way for the individual to repent once he/she has died
- Allah accept the repentance of those who do evil in ignorance and repent soon afterwards; to them will Allah turn in mercy For Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom.
Now, according to the following ayat, if one dies a polytheist, then, Hell is that individuals destination and that is the judgement
4 18. Of no effect is the repentance of those who continue to do evil, until death faces one of them, and he says, "Now have I repented indeed;" nor of those who die rejecting Faith for them have We prepared a punishment most grievous.
I will say it again
4116 Allah forgiveth not (The sin of) joining other gods with Him; but He forgiveth whom He pleaseth other sins than this one, who joins other gods with Allah, Hath strayed far, far away (from the right).
We need to identify what is associating ? to my knowledge we associate when we do Zulm, when we are Zalim because then we do obey other then Allah or act in opposition to Allah ? now that is associating , and simply creating idols is not associating.
People going around stone structures or bowing to idols is not Associating at all because we are not acting in opposition to the nature of Allah/T he attributes
.Let me repeat what I said yesterday and make an addition to further clarify what I mean
Main Entry GUIDANCE/Al-QURAN the instructions on how to live a righteous life in this world (especially, not to do shirk) , so that, one may successfuly pass the test of conduct , so that, one may avoid the destiny of Hell and gain the destiny of Paradise .
When an individual takes some being, some inanimate object, someone or some "philosophy", along with or exclusive to Allah for their guidance, then that individual is associating with Allah. To associate, doesn't simply mean to worship an inanimate object, it also means to take someone's guidance, that is, to take that individuals philosophy i.e. the Bukahri and Co./the Sunnah, as guidance along with Allah's Quran.
Allah has made it clear that, He will not accept/forgive the giving of partners to Him (partners in man's guidance), unless, the individual, prior to seeing the coming of death, repents of it. After that...all bets are off.
Btw, do you reject the above defintion of guidance?
Looking forward to your reply.
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Dear PBM,
Quote
Unfortunately, openburhan.com is down at the moment, however, when I put haneefan into the phonetic search at Islamic Cities, I did not find haneefan to be associated with the Last Prophet. Now, according to your logic, he could not have been "totally dissociated from shirikHere's what you wrote. I'm not proceeding with the discussion till you tell me
- where the 'last prophet' appears in the quran
- what this statement that the last prophet isnt associated with shirik has to do with me? Are you a prophet-worshipper? If not, why even mention him.
unless you actually address these points, im not continuing. Bye
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Salaam brother Mz,
Salaams PB, MQuran,
Where does it say making idols is shirk?Just that I cant recall.
If you're talking about physical idols, Im afraid I cannot find the ayat which has the word 'shirik' in it pointing to that. Many thanks for pointing this out.
Arent the following Ayahs about Shirkists?
022.017
YUSUFALI Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians, Christians, Magians, and Polytheists,- Allah will judge between them on the Day of Judgment for Allah is witness of all things.005.069
YUSUFALI Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.Why are these people being judged ,yet they do Shirk?
I dont think these ayaat are about mushrikeen, no. I believe these people all believe in Allah.
So where does it say shirkists are unforgivable?
The word is 'laa yaghfir' which I take to mean Allah doesnt give his maghfirah or protection. Its not a question of a carte-blanche forgiveness.
I will try to find the ayat for shirik. There are quite a few to look at.
thanks for this heads-up, i've always admired the extent of ur questioning, masha Allah.
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Salaams PB,
You said
?2217 Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians, Christians, Magians, and Polytheists,- Allah will judge between them on the Day of Judgment for Allah is witness of all things.
Quote
Why is Allah Judging the polytheist if they are indeed where unforgivable? Why on earth will you or anybody judge someone if they aren?t going to have a chance?The chance that people have is right here on earth?
But we are talking about judging the polytheists ? and that are on the judgment day as the ayah has said above.
Why judgment if as you say they are destined for hell irrespective of anything else they have accomplished.
You said
?
Now, according to the following ayah, if one dies a polytheist, then, Hell is that individual?s destination and that is the judgement4 18. Of no effect is the repentance of those who continue to do evil, until death faces one of them, and he says, "Now have I repented indeed;" nor of those who die rejecting Faith for them have we prepared a punishment most grievous.?
But this ayah is about evil doers /zalimeen it?s not about someone doing shirk, is it?
You said
?
When an individual takes some being, some inanimate object, someone or some "philosophy", along with or exclusive to Allah for their guidance, then that individual is associating with Allah. To associate, doesn't simply mean to worship an inanimate object, it also means to take someone's guidance, that is, to take that individuals philosophy i.e. the Bukahri and Co./the Sunnah, as guidance along with Allah's Quran.?we unfortunately can?t speak with Allah as Moses did ,so we do take guidance from others mostly and it to me is not associating with Allah unless the guidance is in opposition to Allah?s guidance /or his attributes.
And if people want to worship stones then good for them as this has nothing indeed to do with Allah?s guidance, or any guidance ? and fortunately there isn?t any worship in our guidance so whether they do it with their hands down it doesn?t matter.
You said
?Btw, do you reject the above definition of guidance??
The definitions in the quran are perfect it?s just your or my understandings are somewhat at fault.
God Bless.
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PEACE, MQURAN,
PBM Unfortunately, openburhan.com is down at the moment, however, when I put haneefan into the phonetic search at Islamic Cities, I did not find haneefan to be associated with the Last Prophet. Now, according to your logic, he could not have been "totally dissociated from shirik
Here's what you wrote. I'm not proceeding with the discussion till you tell me
- where the 'last prophet' appears in the quran.
I was referring to Muhammad/The Messenger. Now, according to your "logic", he could not have been "totally dissociated from shirik, because he is not defined as haneefan.
- what this statement that the last prophet isnt associated with shirik has to do with me? Are you a prophet-worshipper? If not, why even mention him.
Are you paying attention to what you post here or what?! Wake up, man. Your claim is that, haneefan means..."a total dissociation from shirik. The phrase 'maa kaana' indicates this". So, I'm asking you...again, given that haneefan is not associated with Muhammad/The Messenger, then, according to your "logic", he could not have been totally disassociated from shirk.
unless you actually address these points, im not continuing. Bye D
You have your response, so, are you now going to prove the following claims you made?
Is this argument meant to affect me in some way? I have no sentiments towards the messenger If he wasn't totally dissociated, thats not my problem is it? FYI, he was inspired to follow ibrahim (16/123) but once again, your argument is not relevant at all.
On the contrary, this is your problem, hence, it does affect you. What are you kidding me?! The following are your statements on the definition haneefan or what you "think" its definition is
A. MQURAN I prefer Quranic definitions.
O.k. then give us the precise Quranic definition of haneefan. I don't went your conjecture as to what its definition is or your theory of what its definition is or what you think its definition. I want to post what you KNOW to be the precise Quranic definition. To aide you in this task, please refer to the following definitions and ayats
Main Entry "I"...THINK to have as an opinion to regard as.
Main Entry OPINION belief stronger than impression and less strong than positive knowledge.
Main Entry IMPRESSION a vague idea in which some confidence is placed.
Main Entry POSITIVE not speculative incontestable independent of changing circumstances.
Main Entry KNOW be convinced or certain of.
Main Entry CERTAIN known or proved to be true indisputable, dependable, reliable.
Main Entry KNOWLEDGE the fact or condition of knowing something with familiarity gained through experience or association.
Main Entry FACT the quality of being actual something that has actual existence a piece of information presented as having objective reality- in fact in truth.
Main Entry ACTUAL existing in fact or reality not false or apparent.
Main EntryTRUTH the state of being the case fact the body of real things, events, and facts actuality.
Main EntryREAL not artificial, fraudulent, illusory, or apparent ccurring in fact.
Hence, when one loses focus of the above ayat and definitions, the following is the result
5328 And they have no knowledge of it; they do not follow anything but conjecture, and surely conjecture does not avail against the truth at all.
6116 And if you obey/follow the majority of those in the earth, they will lead you astray from Allah's way; they follow nothing but conjecture and they only lie.
Main Entry CONJECTURE supposition inference from defective or presumptive evidence b a conclusion deduced by surmise or guesswork.
Main Entry RAMA to speak conjecturally.
B. MQURAN It means as the Quran implies, a total dissociation from shirik. The phrase 'maa kaana' indicates this.
I don't want what implications, I want definites. As I replied to you previously, haneefan, is not used in regard to the Last Prophet, hence, according to your logic, he was never totally dissociated from shirk. These are your words now prove them with Quranic facts. Supposition, indications, conjecture, theories are not facts.
C. If haneefan muslim implies 'maa kaana minal musyrikeen' (never was he associted with shirik), then what's the point of having it there if it means exactly the same thing as 'muslim' ? In effect , 'haneefan muslimaan' would be 'muslim muslim' ?
I don't want implications, I want what you KNOW. Your saying haneefan would mean "muslim muslim", is simply your conjecture which you wish to elevate to Quranic fact. Haneefan, according to The Dict. of the Holy Quran, means straightforward. None of its definitions supports your definition of haneefan. At least, please post a dictionary definition which defines and comes to the conclusion of haneefan as you do.
D. MQURAN Im just pointing out to you, that being a 'muslim' but not haneefa muslim doesnt preclude the possibility of reneging.
E. MQURAN A haneefan muslimaan rejects the ego god, for example.
O.k. then give us the precise Quranic definition of haneefan and where Allah says what you claim in quotes D and E. Remember now, I don't want your conjectures/implications as to what its definition is or your theory of what its definition is or what you "think" its definition. I want to post what you KNOW to be the precise Quranic definition of haneefan is.
BTW, you have not answered the following yet
152 Often will those who disbelieve wish that they had been Muslims.
I think you will notice that, Allah, doesn't say they will wish they had been haneefan muslim, but muslim. If haneefan is totally free from shirk, as you claim it means, and, as you know, Allah, will not forgive shirk, why, then, didn't Allah say "Often will those who disbelieve wish that they had been Haneefan Muslims", who, according to you, have no possibility of being in shirk?
PBM Please post the ayat where Allah says that being haneefan muslim precludes one from reneging and turning back from faith/this possibility is nullified. You are simply extrapolating and assigning this value to this term.
No, thats my interpretation of 'maa kaana minal musyrikeen'. If one's being is free from shirik, then the possibility of reneging isn't there.
I'm not concerned with your interpretation, I'm concerned with what you KNOW is Quranic fact. Allah says
733 Say the things that my Lord hath indeed made HARAM are shameful deeds...and saying things about Allah of which you have no knowledge.
1736 And do not pursue/follow pursue that of which you have no knowledge; for every act of hearing, or of seeing or of (feeling in) the heart will be enquired into (on the Day of Reckoning).
Looking forward to your reply.
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PEACE, MZ357,
?2217 Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians, Christians, Magians, and Polytheists,- Allah will judge between them on the Day of Judgment for Allah is witness of all things.
MZ357 Why is Allah Judging the polytheist if they are indeed where unforgivable? Why on earth will you or anybody judge someone if they aren?t going to have a chance? The chance that people have is right here on earth? But we are talking about judging the polytheists ? and that are on the judgment day as the ayah has said above.
MZ, the judgement on the Day of the Reckoing of the Souls, for those who died in shirk, will be Hell. That is what Allah says in 418. Now, if you don't want to accept that, well, fine, however, your unacceptance isn't going to alter the meaning of the ayat 418 in the least. Isn't shirk the rejection of faith?
Why judgment if as you say they are destined for hell irrespective of anything else they have accomplished.
It doesn't matter what one has accomplished, if one lived and died in shirk, to wit
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Say "Shall we tell you of those who lose most in respect of their deeds?-
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"Those whose efforts have been wasted in this life, while they thought that they were acquiring good by their works?"
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They are those who deny the Ayats of their Lord and the fact of their having to meet Him (in the Hereafter) vain will be their works, nor shall We, on the Day of Judgment, give them any weight.
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That is their reward, Hell, because they rejected Faith, and took My Ayats and My Messengers by way of jest.
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Say "I am but a man like yourselves, (but) the inspiration has come to me, that your Allah is one Allah. whoever expects to meet his Lord, let him work righteousness, and, in the service of his Lord, admit no one as partner.
Hopefully, the above ayats answered your question.
PBM Now, according to the following ayah, if one dies a polytheist, then, Hell is that individual?s destination and that is the judgement
4 18. Of no effect is the repentance of those who continue to do evil, until death faces one of them, and he says, "Now have I repented indeed;" nor of those who die rejecting Faith for them have we prepared a punishment most grievous.?
But this ayah is about evil doers /zalimeen it?s not about someone doing shirk, is it?
What are you talkng about?! Zulm
Main Entry ZALAMA to do wrong or evil act wrongfully injustice.
The highest wrong doing/act of zulm is, to do shirk/associate anything, any object, anyone or any philosophy with Allah, period. Your questions and statements are not making sense, MZ.
PBM When an individual takes some being, some inanimate object, someone or some "philosophy", along with or exclusive to Allah for their guidance, then that individual is associating with Allah. To associate, doesn't simply mean to worship an inanimate object, it also means to take someone's guidance, that is, to take that individuals philosophy i.e. the Bukahri and Co./the Sunnah, as guidance along with Allah's Quran.?
we unfortunately can?t speak with Allah as Moses did ,so we do take guidance from others mostly and it to me is not associating with Allah unless the guidance is in opposition to Allah?s guidance /or his attributes.
I can't believe what I'm reading. Look, when the Messenger recited Allah's ayats, it wasn't the Messenger guiding people, it was the Message/Al-Quran from Allah that guided/guides people. Shirk, is to use any other message/philosophy, either along with or exclusive to Allah, for one's guidance. Your comments are not making sense.
And if people want to worship stones then good for them as this has nothing indeed to do with Allah?s guidance, or any guidance ? and fortunately there isn?t any worship in our guidance so whether they do it with their hands down it doesn?t matter.
??????? Didn't Abraham, destroy the stone idols of his father? What, was that just some irrelevent act on his part and Allah's part for mentioning it in His Quran?? What are you talking about?! To pray to, worship or serve stones, is to reject Faith/shirk. Those who serve stones are misguided and wrongly influence others. Don't you see a problem in that??
PBM ?Btw, do you reject the above definition of guidance??
The definitions in the quran are perfect it?s just your or my understandings are somewhat at fault.
Fine, then point out the flaw in the definition of guidance which I provided.
Looking forward to your reply.
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Peace PBM,
Thanks for attempting to address the point but you didn't manage to address it. I will however proceed but I will repeat the question.
I was referring to Muhammad/The Messenger. Now, according to your "logic", he could not have been "totally dissociated from shirik, because he is not defined as haneefan.
Ok. What is the point of this statement? In other words, SO WHAT?
Are you paying attention to what you post here or what?! Wake up, man. Your claim is that, haneefan means..."a total dissociation from shirik. The phrase 'maa kaana' indicates this". So, I'm asking you...again, given that haneefan is not associated with Muhammad/The Messenger, then, according to your "logic", he could not have been totally disassociated from shirk.
Once again , SO WHAT? Are you president of the 'Last Prophet's admirers' association' or something and you're looking to make a complaint? What is your problem with this?
O.k. then give us the precise Quranic definition of haneefan. I don't went your conjecture as to what its definition is or your theory of what its definition is or what you think its definition. I want to post what you KNOW to be the precise Quranic definition. To aide you in this task, please refer to the following definitions and ayats
If you want a 'precise Quranic definition' devoid of human factor, you need to go to some mountain and ask Allah to descend to you a divine meaning.
I will give you a definition of 'haneefan' as I know it. That's the best I can do as a human being. If you can suggest a better thing to do, let me know.
Haneefan in the quranic context, to have a complete dissociation from shirik.
I don't want what implications, I want definites. As I replied to you previously, haneefan, is not used in regard to the Last Prophet, hence, according to your logic, he was never totally dissociated from shirk. These are your words now prove them with Quranic facts. Supposition, indications, conjecture, theories are not facts.
Can you please tell me the quranic word for 'fact' ?
I think you will notice that, Allah, doesn't say they will wish they had been haneefan muslim, but muslim. If haneefan is totally free from shirk, as you claim it means, and, as you know, Allah, will not forgive shirk, why, then, didn't Allah say "Often will those who disbelieve wish that they had been Haneefan Muslims", who, according to you, have no possibility of being in shirk?
A good question, but answered above. Here's what I said
I'm not concerned with your interpretation, I'm concerned with what you KNOW is Quranic fact. Allah says
Right. Shirik in practise is shown by 18/26 'laa YUSHRIKU fihukmihi ahada', Allah doesn't associate anyone in His legislation. If a person is haneef and you accept the definition of the quran 'maa kaana minal mushrikeen' , then this person follows God's laws completely. God's laws include the command to ittaqa Allah, be mindful of Allah through complete adherence of his laws. When you do this, you're doing the opposite of reneging. Ok ?
Now I got 2 questions for you about your epistemology
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please define what is conjecture
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please define a 'fact
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Salaams SB,
YOU SAID
Isn't shirk the rejection of faith?Br. How can shirkists be total rejecters of faith, when Christians do shirk?
Allah says
005.069
YUSUFALI Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.They shouldn?t fear anything.
And secondly the Poly?s/shirkists will be Judged aswell.
I believe two things are being mixed up evil doers and those who do shirk.
Evil is done by any sect/group and not just by those who do shirk.
And those who die doing evil/zalama are the ones who will go to hell ? I think.
The ayah you mentioned isn't about those who are doing shirk but about those doing evil.
4 18. Of no effect is the repentance of those who continue to do evil, until death faces one of them, and he says, "Now have I repented indeed;" nor of those who die rejecting Faith for them have we prepared a punishment most grievous.?
The only time individuals are told they will go to hell is if they do /and carry on doing things against Allahs attributes/and his laws.
Okay let me show you what I think is following other then Allah.
Take 3 people a,b and c .Suppose a is starving and goes to b a well off person to give him something to eat , but he instead gives him insults or a smack in the mouth , and c comes along says to b you did good well done.
Well both b and c are following other then Allah, because instead of observing Allah?s law/his attribute of kindness they obeyed someone other then Allah ? as they did the opposite.
And someone bowing to a statue doesn?t mean anything but shows he is at a loss or mistaking the statue for something else.
And Abraham?s story isn?t about bowing up and down to the idols its much more then that it?s about the evil actions of those people ? who tried burning Abraham! And there isn?t any bowing involved in worship I think.
Salaams.
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PEACE, MQURAN,
I was referring to Muhammad/The Messenger. Now, according to your "logic", he could not have been "totally dissociated from shirik, because he is not defined as haneefan.
Ok. What is the point of this statement? In other words, SO WHAT Once again , SO WHAT? Are you president of the 'Last Prophet's admirers' association' or something and you're looking to make a complaint? What is your problem with this??
You know very well what the point is, however, if by this time you don't, then you are either severely cognitively challenged, playing games or simply in deep denial. Being cognitively challenged is out, hence, it is either one of the latter two or both which is the case.
PBM O.k. then give us the precise Quranic definition of haneefan. I don't went your conjecture as to what its definition is or your theory of what its definition is or what you think its definition. I want to post what you KNOW to be the precise Quranic definition. To aide you in this task, please refer to the following definitions and ayats
If you want a 'precise Quranic definition' devoid of human factor, you need to go to some mountain and ask Allah to descend to you a divine meaning. I will give you a definition of 'haneefan' as I know it. That's the best I can do as a human being. If you can suggest a better thing to do, let me know. Haneefan in the quranic context, to have a complete dissociation from shirik.
Sorry, as I said, I don't want your conjectures/opinions, but Quranic facts. It is apparent that you do not know what you are talking about and rather than just simply admit that, you prefer to continue making things up. The fact of the matter is, you don't KNOW what haneefan means and have simply assigned a value to it based purely on your own opinion/conjecture. Per ayat 733, your behavior is expressly forbidden by Allah to do.
PBM I don't want what implications, I want definites. As I replied to you previously, haneefan, is not used in regard to the Last Prophet, hence, according to your logic, he was never totally dissociated from shirk. These are your words now prove them with Quranic facts. Supposition, indications, conjecture, theories are not facts.
Can you please tell me the quranic word for 'fact' ?
Alama/ilm.
PBM I think you will notice that, Allah, doesn't say they will wish they had been haneefan muslim, but muslim. If haneefan is totally free from shirk, as you claim it means, and, as you know, Allah, will not forgive shirk, why, then, didn't Allah say "Often will those who disbelieve wish that they had been Haneefan Muslims", who, according to you, have no possibility of being in shirk?
A good question, but answered above. Here's what I said
It's a great question and you have not answered it. Please don't confuse just saying anything which comes to mind with being answer. It's as if someone asked you the sum of 14+23 and you answer..."117". Well, you gave an answer with numbers, however, the answer was useless as it didn't answer the question correctly. The correct answers you should have given to my question would have been one of two
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either you KNOW why Allah didn't use haneefan and state it.
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you don't KNOW why Allah didn't use haneefan and cannot answer.
You really need to study ayats 733 and 1736, thoroughly.
Now I got 2 questions for you about your epistemology
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please define what is conjecture
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please define a 'fact'.
I've already defined these terms in the list of definitions I provided for you. Did you bother to read them?
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You know very well what the point is, however, if by this time you don't, then you are either severely cognitively challenged, playing games or simply in deep denial. Being cognitively challenged is out, hence, it is either one of the latter two or both which is the case.
Thanks for err..compliment but I need you to clear this up please. If you made a statement, it must have a point unless you're neurologically-challenged which I hope you're not. Lets take care of this first please. I'll repeat for your convenience
Quote
I was referring to Muhammad/The Messenger. Now, according to your "logic", he could not have been "totally dissociated from shirik, because he is not defined as haneefan.Quote
Ok. What is the point of this statement? In other words, SO WHAT Once again , SO WHAT? Are you president of the 'Last Prophet's admirers' association' or something and you're looking to make a complaint? What is your problem with this?? -
Salaams MQuran,PB,All,
AN IMPORTANT QUISTION?
Is it both your understandings then
"Shirk is unforgivable , however a shirkist may be forgiven due to his Godly/good deeds - when all actions are considered???"Gods Blessings.
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PEACE, MQURAN,
It is evident that you don't know what you are talking about and rather than simply admit that and move on, you prefer to continue to play games. Al-Islam and Al-Quran are not playthings. Until you can come clean and be mature in this discussion, don't bother posting to me, thanks.
Bye, now.
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PEACE, MZ357,
Salaams MQuran,PB,All,
AN IMPORTANT QUISTION?
Is it both your understandings then
"Shirk is unforgivable , however a shirkist may be forgiven due to his Godly/good deeds - when all actions are considered???"Gods Blessings.
Shirk is only forgivable on this side of the Hearafter, if the individual repents from it. However, if one sees death coming or dies in shirk, then that individual will not be forgiven goes to Hell.
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Salaams PB,
005.069
YUSUFALI Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.Cristians say Jesus is son of God, then are they Shikists ?
Salaam.