THE VAST MAJORITY OF MUSLIMS...ARE NOT MUSLIM AT ALL?
-
Salaams PB,
You said
?2217 Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians, Christians, Magians, and Polytheists,- Allah will judge between them on the Day of Judgment for Allah is witness of all things.
Quote
Why is Allah Judging the polytheist if they are indeed where unforgivable? Why on earth will you or anybody judge someone if they aren?t going to have a chance?The chance that people have is right here on earth?
But we are talking about judging the polytheists ? and that are on the judgment day as the ayah has said above.
Why judgment if as you say they are destined for hell irrespective of anything else they have accomplished.
You said
?
Now, according to the following ayah, if one dies a polytheist, then, Hell is that individual?s destination and that is the judgement4 18. Of no effect is the repentance of those who continue to do evil, until death faces one of them, and he says, "Now have I repented indeed;" nor of those who die rejecting Faith for them have we prepared a punishment most grievous.?
But this ayah is about evil doers /zalimeen it?s not about someone doing shirk, is it?
You said
?
When an individual takes some being, some inanimate object, someone or some "philosophy", along with or exclusive to Allah for their guidance, then that individual is associating with Allah. To associate, doesn't simply mean to worship an inanimate object, it also means to take someone's guidance, that is, to take that individuals philosophy i.e. the Bukahri and Co./the Sunnah, as guidance along with Allah's Quran.?we unfortunately can?t speak with Allah as Moses did ,so we do take guidance from others mostly and it to me is not associating with Allah unless the guidance is in opposition to Allah?s guidance /or his attributes.
And if people want to worship stones then good for them as this has nothing indeed to do with Allah?s guidance, or any guidance ? and fortunately there isn?t any worship in our guidance so whether they do it with their hands down it doesn?t matter.
You said
?Btw, do you reject the above definition of guidance??
The definitions in the quran are perfect it?s just your or my understandings are somewhat at fault.
God Bless.
-
PEACE, MQURAN,
PBM Unfortunately, openburhan.com is down at the moment, however, when I put haneefan into the phonetic search at Islamic Cities, I did not find haneefan to be associated with the Last Prophet. Now, according to your logic, he could not have been "totally dissociated from shirik
Here's what you wrote. I'm not proceeding with the discussion till you tell me
- where the 'last prophet' appears in the quran.
I was referring to Muhammad/The Messenger. Now, according to your "logic", he could not have been "totally dissociated from shirik, because he is not defined as haneefan.
- what this statement that the last prophet isnt associated with shirik has to do with me? Are you a prophet-worshipper? If not, why even mention him.
Are you paying attention to what you post here or what?! Wake up, man. Your claim is that, haneefan means..."a total dissociation from shirik. The phrase 'maa kaana' indicates this". So, I'm asking you...again, given that haneefan is not associated with Muhammad/The Messenger, then, according to your "logic", he could not have been totally disassociated from shirk.
unless you actually address these points, im not continuing. Bye D
You have your response, so, are you now going to prove the following claims you made?
Is this argument meant to affect me in some way? I have no sentiments towards the messenger If he wasn't totally dissociated, thats not my problem is it? FYI, he was inspired to follow ibrahim (16/123) but once again, your argument is not relevant at all.
On the contrary, this is your problem, hence, it does affect you. What are you kidding me?! The following are your statements on the definition haneefan or what you "think" its definition is
A. MQURAN I prefer Quranic definitions.
O.k. then give us the precise Quranic definition of haneefan. I don't went your conjecture as to what its definition is or your theory of what its definition is or what you think its definition. I want to post what you KNOW to be the precise Quranic definition. To aide you in this task, please refer to the following definitions and ayats
Main Entry "I"...THINK to have as an opinion to regard as.
Main Entry OPINION belief stronger than impression and less strong than positive knowledge.
Main Entry IMPRESSION a vague idea in which some confidence is placed.
Main Entry POSITIVE not speculative incontestable independent of changing circumstances.
Main Entry KNOW be convinced or certain of.
Main Entry CERTAIN known or proved to be true indisputable, dependable, reliable.
Main Entry KNOWLEDGE the fact or condition of knowing something with familiarity gained through experience or association.
Main Entry FACT the quality of being actual something that has actual existence a piece of information presented as having objective reality- in fact in truth.
Main Entry ACTUAL existing in fact or reality not false or apparent.
Main EntryTRUTH the state of being the case fact the body of real things, events, and facts actuality.
Main EntryREAL not artificial, fraudulent, illusory, or apparent ccurring in fact.
Hence, when one loses focus of the above ayat and definitions, the following is the result
5328 And they have no knowledge of it; they do not follow anything but conjecture, and surely conjecture does not avail against the truth at all.
6116 And if you obey/follow the majority of those in the earth, they will lead you astray from Allah's way; they follow nothing but conjecture and they only lie.
Main Entry CONJECTURE supposition inference from defective or presumptive evidence b a conclusion deduced by surmise or guesswork.
Main Entry RAMA to speak conjecturally.
B. MQURAN It means as the Quran implies, a total dissociation from shirik. The phrase 'maa kaana' indicates this.
I don't want what implications, I want definites. As I replied to you previously, haneefan, is not used in regard to the Last Prophet, hence, according to your logic, he was never totally dissociated from shirk. These are your words now prove them with Quranic facts. Supposition, indications, conjecture, theories are not facts.
C. If haneefan muslim implies 'maa kaana minal musyrikeen' (never was he associted with shirik), then what's the point of having it there if it means exactly the same thing as 'muslim' ? In effect , 'haneefan muslimaan' would be 'muslim muslim' ?
I don't want implications, I want what you KNOW. Your saying haneefan would mean "muslim muslim", is simply your conjecture which you wish to elevate to Quranic fact. Haneefan, according to The Dict. of the Holy Quran, means straightforward. None of its definitions supports your definition of haneefan. At least, please post a dictionary definition which defines and comes to the conclusion of haneefan as you do.
D. MQURAN Im just pointing out to you, that being a 'muslim' but not haneefa muslim doesnt preclude the possibility of reneging.
E. MQURAN A haneefan muslimaan rejects the ego god, for example.
O.k. then give us the precise Quranic definition of haneefan and where Allah says what you claim in quotes D and E. Remember now, I don't want your conjectures/implications as to what its definition is or your theory of what its definition is or what you "think" its definition. I want to post what you KNOW to be the precise Quranic definition of haneefan is.
BTW, you have not answered the following yet
152 Often will those who disbelieve wish that they had been Muslims.
I think you will notice that, Allah, doesn't say they will wish they had been haneefan muslim, but muslim. If haneefan is totally free from shirk, as you claim it means, and, as you know, Allah, will not forgive shirk, why, then, didn't Allah say "Often will those who disbelieve wish that they had been Haneefan Muslims", who, according to you, have no possibility of being in shirk?
PBM Please post the ayat where Allah says that being haneefan muslim precludes one from reneging and turning back from faith/this possibility is nullified. You are simply extrapolating and assigning this value to this term.
No, thats my interpretation of 'maa kaana minal musyrikeen'. If one's being is free from shirik, then the possibility of reneging isn't there.
I'm not concerned with your interpretation, I'm concerned with what you KNOW is Quranic fact. Allah says
733 Say the things that my Lord hath indeed made HARAM are shameful deeds...and saying things about Allah of which you have no knowledge.
1736 And do not pursue/follow pursue that of which you have no knowledge; for every act of hearing, or of seeing or of (feeling in) the heart will be enquired into (on the Day of Reckoning).
Looking forward to your reply.
-
PEACE, MZ357,
?2217 Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians, Christians, Magians, and Polytheists,- Allah will judge between them on the Day of Judgment for Allah is witness of all things.
MZ357 Why is Allah Judging the polytheist if they are indeed where unforgivable? Why on earth will you or anybody judge someone if they aren?t going to have a chance? The chance that people have is right here on earth? But we are talking about judging the polytheists ? and that are on the judgment day as the ayah has said above.
MZ, the judgement on the Day of the Reckoing of the Souls, for those who died in shirk, will be Hell. That is what Allah says in 418. Now, if you don't want to accept that, well, fine, however, your unacceptance isn't going to alter the meaning of the ayat 418 in the least. Isn't shirk the rejection of faith?
Why judgment if as you say they are destined for hell irrespective of anything else they have accomplished.
It doesn't matter what one has accomplished, if one lived and died in shirk, to wit
-
Say "Shall we tell you of those who lose most in respect of their deeds?-
-
"Those whose efforts have been wasted in this life, while they thought that they were acquiring good by their works?"
-
They are those who deny the Ayats of their Lord and the fact of their having to meet Him (in the Hereafter) vain will be their works, nor shall We, on the Day of Judgment, give them any weight.
-
That is their reward, Hell, because they rejected Faith, and took My Ayats and My Messengers by way of jest.
-
Say "I am but a man like yourselves, (but) the inspiration has come to me, that your Allah is one Allah. whoever expects to meet his Lord, let him work righteousness, and, in the service of his Lord, admit no one as partner.
Hopefully, the above ayats answered your question.
PBM Now, according to the following ayah, if one dies a polytheist, then, Hell is that individual?s destination and that is the judgement
4 18. Of no effect is the repentance of those who continue to do evil, until death faces one of them, and he says, "Now have I repented indeed;" nor of those who die rejecting Faith for them have we prepared a punishment most grievous.?
But this ayah is about evil doers /zalimeen it?s not about someone doing shirk, is it?
What are you talkng about?! Zulm
Main Entry ZALAMA to do wrong or evil act wrongfully injustice.
The highest wrong doing/act of zulm is, to do shirk/associate anything, any object, anyone or any philosophy with Allah, period. Your questions and statements are not making sense, MZ.
PBM When an individual takes some being, some inanimate object, someone or some "philosophy", along with or exclusive to Allah for their guidance, then that individual is associating with Allah. To associate, doesn't simply mean to worship an inanimate object, it also means to take someone's guidance, that is, to take that individuals philosophy i.e. the Bukahri and Co./the Sunnah, as guidance along with Allah's Quran.?
we unfortunately can?t speak with Allah as Moses did ,so we do take guidance from others mostly and it to me is not associating with Allah unless the guidance is in opposition to Allah?s guidance /or his attributes.
I can't believe what I'm reading. Look, when the Messenger recited Allah's ayats, it wasn't the Messenger guiding people, it was the Message/Al-Quran from Allah that guided/guides people. Shirk, is to use any other message/philosophy, either along with or exclusive to Allah, for one's guidance. Your comments are not making sense.
And if people want to worship stones then good for them as this has nothing indeed to do with Allah?s guidance, or any guidance ? and fortunately there isn?t any worship in our guidance so whether they do it with their hands down it doesn?t matter.
??????? Didn't Abraham, destroy the stone idols of his father? What, was that just some irrelevent act on his part and Allah's part for mentioning it in His Quran?? What are you talking about?! To pray to, worship or serve stones, is to reject Faith/shirk. Those who serve stones are misguided and wrongly influence others. Don't you see a problem in that??
PBM ?Btw, do you reject the above definition of guidance??
The definitions in the quran are perfect it?s just your or my understandings are somewhat at fault.
Fine, then point out the flaw in the definition of guidance which I provided.
Looking forward to your reply.
-
-
Peace PBM,
Thanks for attempting to address the point but you didn't manage to address it. I will however proceed but I will repeat the question.
I was referring to Muhammad/The Messenger. Now, according to your "logic", he could not have been "totally dissociated from shirik, because he is not defined as haneefan.
Ok. What is the point of this statement? In other words, SO WHAT?
Are you paying attention to what you post here or what?! Wake up, man. Your claim is that, haneefan means..."a total dissociation from shirik. The phrase 'maa kaana' indicates this". So, I'm asking you...again, given that haneefan is not associated with Muhammad/The Messenger, then, according to your "logic", he could not have been totally disassociated from shirk.
Once again , SO WHAT? Are you president of the 'Last Prophet's admirers' association' or something and you're looking to make a complaint? What is your problem with this?
O.k. then give us the precise Quranic definition of haneefan. I don't went your conjecture as to what its definition is or your theory of what its definition is or what you think its definition. I want to post what you KNOW to be the precise Quranic definition. To aide you in this task, please refer to the following definitions and ayats
If you want a 'precise Quranic definition' devoid of human factor, you need to go to some mountain and ask Allah to descend to you a divine meaning.
I will give you a definition of 'haneefan' as I know it. That's the best I can do as a human being. If you can suggest a better thing to do, let me know.
Haneefan in the quranic context, to have a complete dissociation from shirik.
I don't want what implications, I want definites. As I replied to you previously, haneefan, is not used in regard to the Last Prophet, hence, according to your logic, he was never totally dissociated from shirk. These are your words now prove them with Quranic facts. Supposition, indications, conjecture, theories are not facts.
Can you please tell me the quranic word for 'fact' ?
I think you will notice that, Allah, doesn't say they will wish they had been haneefan muslim, but muslim. If haneefan is totally free from shirk, as you claim it means, and, as you know, Allah, will not forgive shirk, why, then, didn't Allah say "Often will those who disbelieve wish that they had been Haneefan Muslims", who, according to you, have no possibility of being in shirk?
A good question, but answered above. Here's what I said
I'm not concerned with your interpretation, I'm concerned with what you KNOW is Quranic fact. Allah says
Right. Shirik in practise is shown by 18/26 'laa YUSHRIKU fihukmihi ahada', Allah doesn't associate anyone in His legislation. If a person is haneef and you accept the definition of the quran 'maa kaana minal mushrikeen' , then this person follows God's laws completely. God's laws include the command to ittaqa Allah, be mindful of Allah through complete adherence of his laws. When you do this, you're doing the opposite of reneging. Ok ?
Now I got 2 questions for you about your epistemology
-
please define what is conjecture
-
please define a 'fact
-
-
Salaams SB,
YOU SAID
Isn't shirk the rejection of faith?Br. How can shirkists be total rejecters of faith, when Christians do shirk?
Allah says
005.069
YUSUFALI Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.They shouldn?t fear anything.
And secondly the Poly?s/shirkists will be Judged aswell.
I believe two things are being mixed up evil doers and those who do shirk.
Evil is done by any sect/group and not just by those who do shirk.
And those who die doing evil/zalama are the ones who will go to hell ? I think.
The ayah you mentioned isn't about those who are doing shirk but about those doing evil.
4 18. Of no effect is the repentance of those who continue to do evil, until death faces one of them, and he says, "Now have I repented indeed;" nor of those who die rejecting Faith for them have we prepared a punishment most grievous.?
The only time individuals are told they will go to hell is if they do /and carry on doing things against Allahs attributes/and his laws.
Okay let me show you what I think is following other then Allah.
Take 3 people a,b and c .Suppose a is starving and goes to b a well off person to give him something to eat , but he instead gives him insults or a smack in the mouth , and c comes along says to b you did good well done.
Well both b and c are following other then Allah, because instead of observing Allah?s law/his attribute of kindness they obeyed someone other then Allah ? as they did the opposite.
And someone bowing to a statue doesn?t mean anything but shows he is at a loss or mistaking the statue for something else.
And Abraham?s story isn?t about bowing up and down to the idols its much more then that it?s about the evil actions of those people ? who tried burning Abraham! And there isn?t any bowing involved in worship I think.
Salaams.
-
PEACE, MQURAN,
I was referring to Muhammad/The Messenger. Now, according to your "logic", he could not have been "totally dissociated from shirik, because he is not defined as haneefan.
Ok. What is the point of this statement? In other words, SO WHAT Once again , SO WHAT? Are you president of the 'Last Prophet's admirers' association' or something and you're looking to make a complaint? What is your problem with this??
You know very well what the point is, however, if by this time you don't, then you are either severely cognitively challenged, playing games or simply in deep denial. Being cognitively challenged is out, hence, it is either one of the latter two or both which is the case.
PBM O.k. then give us the precise Quranic definition of haneefan. I don't went your conjecture as to what its definition is or your theory of what its definition is or what you think its definition. I want to post what you KNOW to be the precise Quranic definition. To aide you in this task, please refer to the following definitions and ayats
If you want a 'precise Quranic definition' devoid of human factor, you need to go to some mountain and ask Allah to descend to you a divine meaning. I will give you a definition of 'haneefan' as I know it. That's the best I can do as a human being. If you can suggest a better thing to do, let me know. Haneefan in the quranic context, to have a complete dissociation from shirik.
Sorry, as I said, I don't want your conjectures/opinions, but Quranic facts. It is apparent that you do not know what you are talking about and rather than just simply admit that, you prefer to continue making things up. The fact of the matter is, you don't KNOW what haneefan means and have simply assigned a value to it based purely on your own opinion/conjecture. Per ayat 733, your behavior is expressly forbidden by Allah to do.
PBM I don't want what implications, I want definites. As I replied to you previously, haneefan, is not used in regard to the Last Prophet, hence, according to your logic, he was never totally dissociated from shirk. These are your words now prove them with Quranic facts. Supposition, indications, conjecture, theories are not facts.
Can you please tell me the quranic word for 'fact' ?
Alama/ilm.
PBM I think you will notice that, Allah, doesn't say they will wish they had been haneefan muslim, but muslim. If haneefan is totally free from shirk, as you claim it means, and, as you know, Allah, will not forgive shirk, why, then, didn't Allah say "Often will those who disbelieve wish that they had been Haneefan Muslims", who, according to you, have no possibility of being in shirk?
A good question, but answered above. Here's what I said
It's a great question and you have not answered it. Please don't confuse just saying anything which comes to mind with being answer. It's as if someone asked you the sum of 14+23 and you answer..."117". Well, you gave an answer with numbers, however, the answer was useless as it didn't answer the question correctly. The correct answers you should have given to my question would have been one of two
-
either you KNOW why Allah didn't use haneefan and state it.
-
you don't KNOW why Allah didn't use haneefan and cannot answer.
You really need to study ayats 733 and 1736, thoroughly.
Now I got 2 questions for you about your epistemology
-
please define what is conjecture
-
please define a 'fact'.
I've already defined these terms in the list of definitions I provided for you. Did you bother to read them?
-
-
You know very well what the point is, however, if by this time you don't, then you are either severely cognitively challenged, playing games or simply in deep denial. Being cognitively challenged is out, hence, it is either one of the latter two or both which is the case.
Thanks for err..compliment but I need you to clear this up please. If you made a statement, it must have a point unless you're neurologically-challenged which I hope you're not. Lets take care of this first please. I'll repeat for your convenience
Quote
I was referring to Muhammad/The Messenger. Now, according to your "logic", he could not have been "totally dissociated from shirik, because he is not defined as haneefan.Quote
Ok. What is the point of this statement? In other words, SO WHAT Once again , SO WHAT? Are you president of the 'Last Prophet's admirers' association' or something and you're looking to make a complaint? What is your problem with this?? -
Salaams MQuran,PB,All,
AN IMPORTANT QUISTION?
Is it both your understandings then
"Shirk is unforgivable , however a shirkist may be forgiven due to his Godly/good deeds - when all actions are considered???"Gods Blessings.
-
PEACE, MQURAN,
It is evident that you don't know what you are talking about and rather than simply admit that and move on, you prefer to continue to play games. Al-Islam and Al-Quran are not playthings. Until you can come clean and be mature in this discussion, don't bother posting to me, thanks.
Bye, now.
-
PEACE, MZ357,
Salaams MQuran,PB,All,
AN IMPORTANT QUISTION?
Is it both your understandings then
"Shirk is unforgivable , however a shirkist may be forgiven due to his Godly/good deeds - when all actions are considered???"Gods Blessings.
Shirk is only forgivable on this side of the Hearafter, if the individual repents from it. However, if one sees death coming or dies in shirk, then that individual will not be forgiven goes to Hell.
-
Salaams PB,
005.069
YUSUFALI Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.Cristians say Jesus is son of God, then are they Shikists ?
Salaam.
-
PEACE, MZ357,
The ayah you mentioned isn't about those who are doing shirk but about those doing evil.
2256 Let there be no compulsion in religion Truth stands out clear from Error whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.
3113 Behold, Luqman said to his son by way of instruction "O my son! join not in worship (others) with Allah, for false worship/SHIRK is indeed the highest wrong-doing."
Main Entry TAGHA/EVIL To transgress exceed bounds inordinate evil extreme wickedness.
Main Entry TRANSGRESS to go beyond limits set or prescribed by to pass beyond or go over to violate a command or law sin to go beyond a boundary or limit.
Main Entry EVIL morally reprehensible sinful wicked.
Now, let me ask you a question...is shirk...evil/taghut/wrong-doing? Yes or No?
Looking forward to your reply.
-
PEACE, MZ357,
Salaams PB,
005.069
YUSUFALI Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.Cristians say Jesus is son of God, then are they Shikists ?
Salaam.
184-5 And warn those who say Allah has taken a son. They have no knowledge of it, nor had their fathers; a grievous word it is that comes out of their mouths; they speak nothing but a lie.
3113 Behold, Luqman said to his son by way of instruction "O my son! join not in worship (others) with Allah, for false worship/shirk is indeed the highest/azam wrong-doing."
It is clear that, the term for Christian in ayat 569, cannot mean Christian. Christians are mushriks/polytheists, in that, they say Allah is trinity or that Jesus is both Allah and Allah's son. Shirk, is the great/azam sin. Do you see, now?
Lookin forward to your reply.
-
It is evident that you don't know what you are talking about and rather than simply admit that and move on, you prefer to continue to play games.
So essentially, you can say simply whatever you like and not have to explain yourself. The truth is, you know that argument is completely irrelevant and you were trying to play on my (btw non-existent) sentiments. Your anti-sunni sentiments are completely undermined by this pathetic resort to sentimentalities.
Oh btw, Muhammad was inspired to follow the millat of Ibrahim (16/123) so dont be so quick to put him down.
Al-Islam and Al-Quran are not playthings. Until you can come clean and be mature in this discussion, don't bother posting to me, thanks.
Oh but they are playthings..to YOU. You use them as a sling to attack sunnis. Look at the title of this thread. What's a 'vast majority' of 1.2 billion muslims ? 1 billion ? Do you know even 10, 000 sunnis ? Probably not. Yet you dare to make such an assertion in gross ignorance of 17/36.
As for 'fact' and 'conjecture', until the next time you get Allah to come down from His Throne and give you a personal lesson, you should stop ranting. All our talks can never be AL-HAQQ as al-haqq is only Allah and His Book. When I use the word 'imply' and 'opine', its only to show that this is as far as I know, being a human. If you don't like it, you can lump it
-
Salam brother MZ,
Is it both your understandings then
"Shirk is unforgivable , however a shirkist may be forgiven due to his Godly/good deeds - when all actions are considered???"I think your dilemma will be solved when seeing the -meaning of 'forgive', ghafr
http//www.toluislam.com/pub_online/exposition/glossary_e_to_h.htm#_Toc428590229
-
PEACE, MQURAN,
PBM It is evident that you don't know what you are talking about and rather than simply admit that and move on, you prefer to continue to play games.
So essentially, you can say simply whatever you like and not have to explain yourself.
Yes, I can say whatever I like, except, when it comes to Allah and His Deen, then, per ayat 733, it becomes haram to do so. I suggest that you also begin to adhere to this rule.
The truth is, you know that argument is completely irrelevant and you were trying to play on my (btw non-existent) sentiments. Your anti-sunni sentiments are completely undermined by this pathetic resort to sentimentalities.
On the contrary, my argument is absolutely relevent and that is why you have not answered it yet. Ayat 152 simply shreds your sophomoric "haneefan muslim argument". And yes, I am anti-sunni/shia superstition and whatever else isn't of the millet of Abraham.
Oh btw, Muhammad was inspired to follow the millat of Ibrahim (16/123) so dont be so quick to put him down.
I'm not putting The Messenger down at all, where do you get that nonsense from?! Anyway, I'm still waiting for you to show me that ayat where he is defined as "haneefan Muslim", because if you don't, then, according to your "logic", he could not have been absolutely free of shirk as was Abraham.
PBM Al-Islam and Al-Quran are not playthings. Until you can come clean and be mature in this discussion, don't bother posting to me, thanks.
Oh but they are playthings..to YOU. You use them as a sling to attack sunnis. Look at the title of this thread. What's a 'vast majority' of 1.2 billion muslims ? 1 billion ? Do you know even 10, 000 sunnis ? Probably not. Yet you dare to make such an assertion in gross ignorance of 17/36.
I'm not playing any games and well you know it and that is why you are so defensive and continue to play games. You are in profound denial. Anyway, I don't have to know any sunnis personally to know they are not, IN FACT, Muslims. LOL! Was Abraham a sunni Muslim? What are you talking about?! The sunnis/shias, take two things for their guidance--minimally Al-Quran and maximamally the corrupted Sunnah and Hadiths of Bukhari and Co. Once an individual takes two things or more for their guidance, then they are now in shirk, period.
As for 'fact' and 'conjecture', until the next time you get Allah to come down from His Throne and give you a personal lesson, you should stop ranting. All our talks can never be AL-HAQQ as al-haqq is only Allah and His Book. When I use the word 'imply' and 'opine', its only to show that this is as far as I know, being a human. If you don't like it, you can lump it
LOL! your above "comments" are a classic illustration of a rant, please. Allah, in His Quran (I suggest you pick it up and read sometime) commands us to eschew conjecture and adhere to fact. This is discussed in ayat 733, are you familiar with it? If not, get familiar with it as soon as you can, and, while you are at it, get really intimate with the following ayats and analysis
ON HELL
FIRE IS TERRIFYING, SO MUCH SO THAT...
NEW YORK CITY 9/11/01 (AP)-In New York, some of the occupants of each tower above its point of impact made their way upward towards the roof in hope of helicopter rescue. Because of the smoke, no such rescue could safely be attempted. A number of people jumped from the burning building to the streets and roofs below.
PARIS 4/15/05 (AP) - People screamed for help and jumped from windows early Friday as fire and smoke swept through a hotel...
Do you comprehend the above? People lept from great heights rather than be burned to death.
Of the Fire of Hell, Allah says
Say, "The fire of Hell is fiercer in heat." If only they could understand!
Here are some more Quranic FACTS about Hell
280 And they say "The Fire shall not touch us but for a few numbered days" Say "Have ye taken a promise from Allah, for He never breaks His promise? or is it that you say of Allah what ye do not know?"
324 This because they say "The Fire shall not touch us but for a few numbered days" For their forgeries deceive them as to their own deen.
-
Those who reject Faith, and die rejecting,- on them is Allah's curse, and the curse of angels, and of all mankind;
-
They will abide therein Their penalty will not be lightened, nor will respite be their (lot).
2167 And those who followed shall say Had there been for us a return, then we would renounce them as they have renounced us. Thus will Allah show them their deeds to be intense regret to them, and they shall not come forth from the fire.
-
Their wish will be to get out of the Fire, but never will they get out therefrom their penalty will be one that endures.
-
It will also be said "This Day We will forget you as ye forgot the meeting of this Day of yours! and your abode is the Fire, and no helpers have ye!
-
"This, because ye used to take the Ayats of Allah in jest, and the life of the world deceived you" (From) that Day, therefore, they shall not be taken out thence, nor shall they be received into Grace.
4;56 (As for) those who disbelieve in Our ayats, We shall make them ENTER the fire; so oft as their skins are thoroughly burned, We will change them for other skins, that they may taste the chastisement; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise.
The above two ayats, dispell the sunni/shia superstitious notion that, so-called muslims, who go to Hell, will eventually be taken out. FACT, Hell is permanent!
CAN ONE BE SAVED ON ONE'S DEATH BED OR AFTER DEATH?
- Allah accept the repentance of those who do evil in ignorance and repent soon afterwards; to them will Allah turn in mercy For Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom.
4 18. Of no effect is the repentance of those who continue to do evil, until death faces one of them, and he says, "Now have I repented indeed;" nor of those who die rejecting Faith for them have We prepared a punishment most grievous.
Well, I guess those two ayats speak real loud and clear for themselves, eh? If you die in shirk...well, without doubt, Hell is the consequence. Wake up while you are still able to do so. wink
Study the following and learn what is shirk and how to avoid it. Save yourself and your family
6.151 Say Come I will recite what your Lord has forbidden to you-- (remember) that you do not associate anything with Him and show kindness to your parents, and do not slay your children for (fear of) poverty-- We provide for you and for them-- and do not draw nigh to indecencies, those of them which are apparent and those which are concealed, and do not kill the soul which Allah has forbidden except for the requirements of justice; this He has enjoined you with that you may understand.
1722 Take not with Allah another object of worship; or thou (O man!) wilt sit in disgrace and destitution.
18110 Say I am only a mortal like you; it is revealed to me that your god is one God, therefore whoever hopes to meet his Lord, he should do good deeds, and not join anyone in the service of his Lord.
5151 And do not set up with Allah another god surely I am a plain warner to you from Him.
448 Surely Allah does not forgive that anything should be associated with Him, and forgives what is besides that to whomsoever He pleases; and whoever associates anything with Allah, he devises indeed a great sin.
4116 Surely Allah does not forgive that anything should be associated with Him, and He forgives what is besides this to whom He pleases; and whoever associates anything with Allah, he indeed strays off into a remote error.
298 We have enjoined on man kindness to parents but if they (either of them) strive (to force) you to join with Me (in worship) anything of which you have no knowledge, obey them not. You have (all) to return to me, and I will tell you (the truth) of all that you did.
18103 Say "Shall we tell you of those who lose most in respect of their deeds?-
18104 "Those whose efforts have been wasted in this life, while they thought that they were acquiring good by their works?"
18110 Say I am only a mortal like you; it is revealed to me that your god is one God, therefore whoever hopes to meet his Lord, he should do good deeds, and not join any one in the service of his Lord.
We are commanded to follow the deen of Abraham
2130 And who turns away from the deen of Abraham but such as debase their souls with folly? Him We chose and rendered pure in this world And he will be in the Hereafter in the ranks of the Righteous.
- Behold! his Lord said to him "Submit" He said "I submit (my will) to the Lord and Cherisher of the Universe."
395 Say "(Allah) speaketh the Truth follow the deen/millet of Abraham, the sane in faith; he was not of the rejectors/mushrikeen."
4125 Who can be better in deen than one who submits his whole self to Allah, does good, and follows the way of Abraham the true in Faith? For Allah did take Abraham for a friend.
6161 Say "Verily, my Lord has guided me to a way that is straight,- a deen/millet of right,- the path (trod) by Abraham the true in Faith, and he (certainly) joined not gods with Allah."
2278 And strive in His cause as you ought to strive, (with sincerity and under discipline). He has chosen you, and has imposed no difficulties on you in religion; it is the deen of your father Abraham. It is He Who has named you Muslims, both before and in this (Revelation); that the Messenger may be a witness for you, and ye be witnesses for mankind! So establish regular Prayer, give regular Charity, and hold fast to Allah. He is your Protector - the Best to protect and the Best to help!
Main Entry ASSOCIATE to join as a partner, friend, or companion to join or conncet togethercombine.
Main Entry PARTNER one that shares one associated with another especially in an action.
Main Entry EQUAL like in quality, nature, or status.
Main Entry CO-EQUAL equal with one another
Main Entry SUPPLEMENT/SUPPLEMENTARY something that completes or makes an addition a part added to or issued as a continuation of a book or periodical to make additions.
Main Entry THING a separate and distinct individual quality, fact, idea, or usually entity an inanimate object distinguished from a living being a spoken or written observation or point.
Main Entry LEGISLATION the exercise of the power and function of making rules (as laws) that have the force of authority...
6.164 Say What! shall I seek a Lord other than Allah? And He is the Lord of all things; and no soul earns (evil) but against itself, and no bearer of burden shall bear the burden of another; then to your Lord is your return, so He will inform you of that in which you differed.
3.80 And neither would he enjoin you that you should take the angels and the prophets for lords; what! would he enjoin you with unbelief after you are Muslims.
9.31 They have taken their doctors of law and their monks for lords besides Allah, and (also) the Messiah son of Marium and they were enjoined that they should serve one God only, there is no god but He; far from His glory be what they set up (with Him).
12.39 O my two mates of the prison! are sundry lords better or Allah the One, the Supreme?
Main Entry LORD/RABB/ARBAB one having power and authority over others a ruler by hereditary right or preeminence to whom service and obedience are due b one that has achieved mastery or that exercises leadership or great power in some area a man of rank or high position.
12.38 And I follow the deen/millet of my fathers, Ibrahim and Ishaq and Yaqoub; it beseems us not that we should associate anything with Allah; this is by Allah's grace upon us and on mankind, but most people do not give thanks
Hence, the so-called "sunnah of the prophet" and the "hadiths" of Bukhari et. al., are considered to be either co-equal with Al-Quran or supplementary to Al-Quran. Regardles as to whether these things are co-equal with or supplementary to Al-Quran, they both represent being "partners" in guidance with Allah, hence, to use them for one's guidance/salvation of one's soul, is shirk/haram.
1028 And on the day when We will gather them all together, then We will say to those who associated others (with Allah) Keep where you are, you and your associates; then We shall separate them widely one from another and their associates would say It was not us that you served
2167 And those who followed shall say Had there been for us a return, then we would renounce them as they have renounced us. Thus will Allah show them their deeds to be intense regret to them, and they shall not come forth from the fire.
1015 And when Our clear ayats are recited to them, those who hope not for Our meeting say Bring a Quran other than this or change it. Say It does not beseem me that I should change it of myself; I follow naught but what is revealed to me; surely I fear, if I disobey my Lord, the punishment of a mighty day.
- Say the things that my Lord hath indeed forbidden are shameful deeds, whether open or secret; sins and trespasses against truth or reason; assigning of partners to Allah, for which He hath given no authority; and saying things about Allah of which you have no knowledge.
2415 When you received it with your tongues and spoke with your mouths what you had no knowledge of, and you deemed it an easy matter while with Allah it was grievous.
I won't expect a reply for a considerable time. You will need time to digest the above.
-
-
Salaams MQuran,SB,
You Said
It is clear that, the term for Christian in ayat 569, cannot mean Christian. Christians are mushriks/polytheists, in that, they say Allah is trinity or that Jesus is both Allah and Allah's son. Shirk, is the great/azam sin. Do you see, now?
But looking at these Ayah?s,aren?t they Christian Br.
Line118 Waqaloo lan yadkhula aljannata illaman kana hoodan aw nasara tilka amaniyyuhumqul hatoo burhanakum in kuntum sadiqeena
And they say "None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian." Those are their (vain) desires. Say "Produce your proof if ye are truthful."
Some have said, "No one will enter Paradise except Jews or Christians!" Such is their wishful thinking. Say, "Show us your proof, if you are right."
Line120 Waqalati alyahoodu laysati alnnasaraAAala shay-in waqalati alnnasaralaysati alyahoodu AAala shay-in wahum yatloona alkitabakathalika qala allatheena layaAAlamoona mithla qawlihim faAllahu yahkumubaynahum yawma alqiyamati feema kanoo feehiyakhtalifoona
The Jews say "The Christians have naught (to stand) upon; and the Christians say "The Jews have naught (To stand) upon." Yet they (Profess to) study the (same) Book. Like unto their word is what those say who know not; but Allah will judge between them in their quarrel on the Day of Judgment.
The Jews said, "The Christians have no basis," while the Christians said, "The Jews have no basis." Yet, both of them read the scripture. Such are the utterances of those who possess no knowledge. GOD will judge them on the Day of Resurrection, regarding their disputes.
Line127 Walan tarda AAanka alyahoodu walaalnnasara hatta tattabiAAamillatahum qul inna huda Allahi huwa alhudawala-ini ittabaAAta ahwaahum baAAda allathee jaakamina alAAilmi ma laka mina Allahi min waliyyin walanaseerin
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion. Say "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance." Wert thou to follow their desires after the knowledge which hath reached thee, then wouldst thou find neither Protector nor helper against Allah.
Neither the Jews, nor the Christians, will accept you, unless you follow their religion. Say, "GOD's guidance is the true guidance." If you acquiesce to their wishes, despite the knowledge you have received, you will find no ally or supporter to help you against GOD.
Line142 Waqaloo koonoo hoodan aw nasaratahtadoo qul bal millata ibraheema haneefan wamakana mina almushrikeena
They say "Become Jews or Christians if ye would be guided (To salvation)." Say thou "Nay! (I would rather) the Religion of Abraham the True, and he joined not gods with Allah."
They said, "You have to be Jewish or Christian, to be guided." Say, "We follow the religion of Abraham - monotheism - he never was an idol worshiper."
Gods Blessings.
-
Salaam MZ,
It is clear that, the term for Christian in ayat 569, cannot mean Christian. Christians are mushriks/polytheists, in that, they say Allah is trinity or that Jesus is both Allah and Allah's son. Shirk, is the great/azam sin. Do you see, now?
Agreed. I think 'nasara' means 'helpers' as a basic meaning.
-
Salaams MQuran,
Yes it does mean helpers according to Dictioneries but who are these helpers you can see by looking at these ayah's though - i think.
And Frankly they do seem to be Christians according to the meanings/contexts of the Ayah's,Don't you reckon?
Please check and then tell your conc
569,2111,2113,2120,2135,
Thanks.
-
PEACE, MZ357,
Salaams MQuran,SB,
You Said
It is clear that, the term for Christian in ayat 569, cannot mean Christian. Christians are mushriks/polytheists, in that, they say Allah is trinity or that Jesus is both Allah and Allah's son. Shirk, is the great/azam sin. Do you see, now?
But looking at these Ayah?s,aren?t they Christian Br.
MZ, if those ayats mean Christian, as we know Christians today, then those ayats are in contradiction to these ayats
4171 O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only an apostle of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His apostles, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one God; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector.
573 Certainly they disbelieve who say Surely Allah is the third (person) of the three; and there is no god but the one God, and if they desist not from what they say, a painful chastisement shall befall those among them who disbelieve.
5116 And when Allah will say O Isa son of Marium! did you say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah he will say Glory be to Thee, it did not befit me that I should say what I had no right to (say); if I had said it, Thou wouldst indeed have known it; Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I do not know what is in Thy mind, surely Thou art the great Knower of the unseen things.
184-5 And warn those who say Allah has taken a son.
They have no knowledge of it, nor had their fathers; a grievous word it is that comes out of their mouths; they speak nothing but a lie.Now, as you know, Al-Quran cannot contradict itself, hence, Christian (nasara/supporters) cannot mean Christian as we know it today. This should be clear to you now. If not, I don't know how to make it any plainer to you.
Looking forward to your reply.