DO AYATS 5:5 AND 6:146, PRECLUDE THE PIG AS BEING HARAM...?
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PEACE, TO ALL,
Many destitute people around the world, to survive,...eat smelly bad looking things for food. (
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"Forbidden to you (for food) are dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine, and that on which hath been invoked the name of other than Allah."
Say, "I do not find in the revelations given to me any food that is prohibited for any eater except (1) carrion, (2) running blood, (3) the meat of pigs, for it is contaminated, and (4) the meat of animals blasphemously dedicated to other than GOD." If one is forced (to eat these), without being deliberate or malicious, then your Lord is Forgiver, Most Merciful.
I have choosed these two verses from the chapters that you quoted, to show you if that is so? what you are trying to propogate than it means there is a claer contradiction in QURAN, but NO that is not the case Dear Priest. For a Muslim above verses are more than enough to believe what Quran is saying clearly but for you and Swedish lady we have to analyze it further.
The priest base his arguments on following verses
For those who are Jewish we prohibited animals with undivided hoofs; and of the cattle and sheep we prohibited the fat, except that which is carried on their backs, or in the viscera, or mixed with bones. That was a retribution for their transgressions, and we are truthful.
55] Today, all good food is made lawful for you. The food of the people of the scripture is lawful for you, *. Also, you may marry the chaste women among the believers, as well as the chaste women among the followers of previous scripture, provided you pay them their due dowries. You shall maintain chastity, not committing adultery, nor taking secret lovers. Anyone who rejects faith, all his work will be in vain, and in the Hereafter he will be with the losers.and tries to tell us that Swine is not Haram as is clearly mentioned in other verses.
He statesThis is my understanding. At the time Al-Quran was being revealed, the species of animal, the pig, was not haram to the People of the Book i.e the Jews
Albion noting the blunder in his statements quickly comes in for his support and with complete dishonesty or ignorance discusses some chapters like mathew of bible and leaves the main issue discussed in Leviticus.
Here are some verses open to discussion for all
"And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be cloven footed, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you".
"Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcass shall ye not touch, they are unclean to you."
And then Deutronomy
"And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean unto you. Ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcass."
So wht you say Now? my dear priest.
The translation is from KINGS JAMES of Leviticus and can be checked
It is not from me. winkSwedish Lady
Salaam all,
I think I must defend Pb here!
Yes; please go on.
SaLaM Raj-ah
Excellent point
THanks JAXAL.
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Raj-ah,
"Forbidden to you (for food) are dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine, and that on which hath been invoked the name of other than Allah."
Say, "I do not find in the revelations given to me any food that is prohibited for any eater except (1) carrion, (2) running blood, (3) the meat of pigs, for it is contaminated, and (4) the meat of animals blasphemously dedicated to other than GOD." If one is forced (to eat these), without being deliberate or malicious, then your Lord is Forgiver, Most Merciful.
I have choosed these two verses from the chapters that you quoted, to show you if that is so? what you are trying to propogate than it means there is a claer contradiction in QURAN, but NO that is not the case Dear Priest. For a Muslim above verses are more than enough to believe what Quran is saying clearly but for you and Swedish lady we have to analyze it further.
LOL! My Dear Raj-ah, you and the vast majority of the so-called Muslims, continue to, and erroneously so, mistranslate khinzerin as pig and this is why you imagine that I'm in contradiction with Al-Quran.
The priest base his arguments on following verses
For those who are Jewish we prohibited animals with claws/thufur; and of the cattle and sheep we prohibited the fat, except that which is carried on their backs, or in the viscera, or mixed with bones. That was a retribution for their transgressions, and we are truthful.
"Undivided hoof", is gross mistranslation. Thafara, means claws/talons. See
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The Dictionary of the Holy Quran, by Omar, pg. 350.
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The Dictionary of Modern Written Arabic, by Wehr, pg. 581.
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The English-Arabic Translator Dictionary, by Steinglass, pg. 146.
None of these dictionaries translates thafara, as hoof. Look it up for yourself.
Today, all good food is made lawful for you. The food of the people of the scripture is lawful for you, ...
and tries to tell us that Swine is not Haram as is clearly mentioned in other verses. He states
PBM This is my understanding. At the time Al-Quran was being revealed, the species of animal, the pig, was not haram to the People of the Book i.e the Jews.
Albion noting the blunder in his statements quickly comes in for his support and with complete dishonesty or ignorance discusses some chapters like mathew of bible and leaves the main issue discussed in Leviticus.
Here are some verses open to discussion for all
"And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be cloven footed, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you".
"Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcass shall ye not touch, they are unclean to you."
(Leviticus 117-And then Deutronomy "And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean unto you. Ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcass." (Deuteronomy 14
So wht you say Now? my dear priest.
The translation is from KINGS JAMES of Leviticus and can be checked
It is not from me. winkLOL! What say I, you ask? Let me ask you the following
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Is Al-Quran the The Book of Guidance for mankind or is the Torah the Book of Guidance for mankind or...are both Books the Guidance for mankind? If you need a clue, please look at ayat 2185 wink
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Is Al-Quran without error or doubt? Is the Torah without error or doubt? Are both Books without error or doubt? Or, do both Books contain error and doubt? Tell us what you...know.
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Al-Quran says that...the animals with claws were made haram to the Jews as food, because the Jews transgressed. Now, pigs don't have claws, so, Al-Quran is contradicting the Torah...which do you believe is the true account? They both cannot be the true account.
Swedish Lady Salaam all, I think I must defend Pb here!
Raj-ah Yes; please go on.
Sweden, all praises due to Allah, is beginning to work through the scam.
SaLaM Raj-ah
Excellent point
THanks JAXAL.
Jaxal, has made no points excellent or otherwise.
You are very ignorant of Al-Quran, Raj.
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I am sorry I was out of the town on an official tour for few days.
LOL! What say I, you ask? Let me ask you the following
Well before you ask any question you should answer first, my Dear Priest.
You are very ignorant of Al-Quran, Raj.
Well i am a student only!
But I would have rather taken this statement seriously if someone who has displayed better knowldge of Quran would have said it. -
I am sorry I was out of the town on an official tour for few days.
LOL! What say I, you ask? Let me ask you the following
Well before you ask any question you should answer first, my Dear Priest.
You are very ignorant of Al-Quran, Raj.
Well i am a student only!
But I would have rather taken this statement seriously if someone who has displayed better knowldge of Quran would have said it.My Dear Raj, as I said...you are very ignorant of Al-Quran, hence, you a poor student of it as well.
Now, unless you can refute my analysis of ayats 55 and 6146, relative to swine being halal, as well as, address the following three questions/points, then please refrain from further pestering me, thanks.
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Is Al-Quran the The Book of Guidance for mankind or is the Torah the Book of Guidance for mankind or...are both Books the Guidance for mankind? If you need a clue, please look at ayat 2185
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Is Al-Quran without error or doubt? Is the Torah without error or doubt? Are both Books without error or doubt? Or, do both Books contain error and doubt? Tell us what you...know.
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Al-Quran says that...the animals with claws were made haram to the Jews as food, because the Jews transgressed. Now, pigs don't have claws, so, Al-Quran is contradicting the Torah...which do you believe is the true account? They both cannot be the true account.
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PEACE, ZENJE,
Peace PB,
Lets not resort to things like this...
...you are very ignorant of Al-Quran, hence, you a poor student of it as well.Ignorant, is to be without knowledge of something, what is the problem with saying that? Post after post after post, Jaxal, made one disparaging remark after another.
Why didn't you step in and say "Lets not resort to things like this My misguided brother Priest...my foolish misguided brother...my really foolish misguided brother...Dont post false and ridiculous information like Priest does...Another word which is a compund. NONSENSICAL. This word is comprised of NON - SENSE - ICAL. It means Lacking intelligible meaning a nonsensical jumble of words.. Something like what comes out of PRIEST..
What about Thor Stupid question...Another stupid question...Moronic question...Are you schizophrenic or just plain hypocritical..
I could post more, Zenge. My question is...why the obvious double standard when it comes to me? If you really believe in Allah, then do justice if it is justice you want for yourself.
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PEACE, LOLI,
Salam PB,
Just want to know ur opinion o 55. It is said that our food is Halal for the Jews. But what if we(followers of the Quran) ate animals with claws? Will our food be Haram to them?
salam
No, our food wouldn't be haram for them. The Jews were forbidden to eat animals with claws as a punishment for their sins. With the coming of Al-Quran this punishment was lifted, hence, our food is halal for them, in that, animals with claws were never forbidden to us or mankind in general. Was that clear?
Looking forward to your reply.
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My Dear Raj, as I said...you are very ignorant of Al-Quran, hence, you a poor student of it as well.
Now, unless you can refute my analysis of ayats 55 and 6146, relative to swine being halal, as well as, address the following three questions/points, then please refrain from further pestering me, thanks.
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Is Al-Quran the The Book of Guidance for mankind or is the Torah the Book of Guidance for mankind or...are both Books the Guidance for mankind? If you need a clue, please look at ayat 2185
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Is Al-Quran without error or doubt? Is the Torah without error or doubt? Are both Books without error or doubt? Or, do both Books contain error and doubt? Tell us what you...know.
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Al-Quran says that...the animals with claws were made haram to the Jews as food, because the Jews transgressed. Now, pigs don't have claws, so, Al-Quran is contradicting the Torah...which do you believe is the true account? They both cannot be the true account.
Regarding you calling me Ignorant is display of your haughty attitude; you are VICTIM OF YOUR OWN EGO and this is a Physcological problem.
Regarding your questions
1 & 2. Quran surely is the book of guidance for mankind, Torah as Quran says WAS the guidance for man kind, for that particular time, and as the time passed a part of it was corrupted by misinterpretations as they suited the corrupted Rabbi's. Therefore both the books are from common source one has been corrupted to some extent and other is pure.
Look at the following verses and you will find harmony between Quranic Ayats and These scriptures
"And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be cloven footed, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you".
"Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcass shall ye not touch, they are unclean to you."
(Leviticus 117-And then Deutronomy "And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean unto you. Ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcass." (Deuteronomy 14
"Forbidden to you (for food) are dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine, and that on which hath been invoked the name of other than Allah."
Say, "I do not find in the revelations given to me any food that is prohibited for any eater except (1) carrion, (2) running blood, (3) the meat of pigs, for it is contaminated, and (4) the meat of animals blasphemously dedicated to other than GOD." If one is forced (to eat these), without being deliberate or malicious, then your Lord is Forgiver, Most Merciful.
LOL! My Dear Raj-ah, you and the vast majority of the so-called Muslims, continue to, and erroneously so, mistranslate khinzerin as pig and this is why you imagine that I'm in contradiction with Al-Quran.
And what is your translation?? if vast majority is wrong because you are basing your whole argument on your own translations and misinterpretations.
It is Laham before the word Khanzeer used.The answer to question no.3 will be given after you tell us what is the translation of word "Khanzeer" and word "laham" ?? which according to you majority translates it wrong as "swine" and "meat".
KHANZEER in Arabic means pig and full stop.
In Hebrew they call it KHAZEER
LAHAM is flesh.In your opinion you are trying to do good for Islam but actually you are doing the same thing which Jews did to corrupt Torah by inserting there own transaltions and interpreatations.
The best we can call your posting is a Guess work and that's all.
You have no historical eveidence of what you say
You have no conculsive arguments for what you say
A pure Guess work. -
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PEACE, LOLI,
Salam PB,
Just want to know ur opinion o 55. It is said that our food is Halal for the Jews. But what if we(followers of the Quran) ate animals with claws? Will our food be Haram to them?
salam
No, our food wouldn't be haram for them. The Jews were forbidden to eat animals with claws as a punishment for their sins. With the coming of Al-Quran this punishment was lifted, hence, our food is halal for them, in that, animals with claws were never forbidden to us or mankind in general. Was that clear?
Looking forward to your reply.
Peace PB
Do you have prove from the Quran to support ur statement I underlined above?
with Regards
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RA-JAH,
PBM Now, unless you can refute my analysis of ayats 55 and 6146, relative to swine being halal, as well as, address the following three questions/points, then please refrain from further pestering me, thanks.
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Is Al-Quran the The Book of Guidance for mankind or is the Torah the Book of Guidance for mankind or...are both Books the Guidance for mankind? If you need a clue, please look at ayat 2185
-
Is Al-Quran without error or doubt? Is the Torah without error or doubt? Are both Books without error or doubt? Or, do both Books contain error and doubt? Tell us what you...know.
-
Al-Quran says that...the animals with claws were made haram to the Jews as food, because the Jews transgressed. Now, pigs don't have claws, so, Al-Quran is contradicting the Torah...which do you believe is the true account? They both cannot be the true account.
Regarding you calling me Ignorant is display of your haughty attitude; you are VICTIM OF YOUR OWN EGO and this is a Physcological problem.
O.k.
Regarding your questions
1 & 2. Quran surely is the book of guidance for mankind, Torah as Quran says WAS the guidance for man kind, for that particular time, and as the time passed a part of it was corrupted by misinterpretations as they suited the corrupted Rabbi's. Therefore both the books are from common source one has been corrupted to some extent and other is pure.
Well, the answer then is...only Al-Quran is the guidance for mankind, because only it is uncorrupted. Now, according to Al-Quran, Allah, only forbade the Jews animals with claws/thufr and the fat of oxen and sheep, except, what adhered to their backs. Now, given that pigs do not have claws, the pig, then, was not one of the haram animals, period. With this in mind then, where do people get the notion that the pig was haram for Jews?
Look at the following verses and you will find harmony between Quranic Ayats and These scriptures
"And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be cloven footed, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you".
"Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcass shall ye not touch, they are unclean to you."
(Leviticus 117-And then Deutronomy "And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean unto you. Ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcass." (Deuteronomy 14
Once again, you are quoting out a corrupted book--the Torah, and taking it as truth. Allah, clearly, in ayat 6146, forbade the Jews animals with claws/THUFR which completely disqualifies the pig from this category of animals. Thufr, does not mean divided hoof, but claw, nail, talon.
"Forbidden to you (for food) are dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine, and that on which hath been invoked the name of other than Allah."
Say, "I do not find in the revelations given to me any food that is prohibited for any eater except (1) carrion, (2) running blood, (3) the meat of pigs, for it is contaminated, and (4) the meat of animals blasphemously dedicated to other than GOD." If one is forced (to eat these), without being deliberate or malicious, then your Lord is Forgiver, Most Merciful.
LOL! My Dear Raj-ah, you and the vast majority of the so-called Muslims, continue to, and erroneously so, mistranslate khinzerin as pig and this is why you imagine that I'm in contradiction with Al-Quran.
And what is your translation?? if vast majority is wrong because you are basing your whole argument on your own translations and misinterpretations.
It is Laham before the word Khanzeer used.The answer to question no.3 will be given after you tell us what is the translation of word "Khanzeer" and word "laham" ?? which according to you majority translates it wrong as "swine" and "meat".
KHANZEER in Arabic means pig and full stop.
In Hebrew they call it KHAZEER
LAHAM is flesh.You and the others continue to mistranslate khinzeerin, however, it doesn't matter, because ayats 55 and 6146, when taken together, completely destroy any such notion of the pig being haram. You have yet to refute the 55 and 6146 argument which proves the pig was never ahram to Jews or mankind.
In your opinion you are trying to do good for Islam but actually you are doing the same thing which Jews did to corrupt Torah by inserting there own transaltions and interpreatations.
The best we can call your posting is a Guess work and that's all.
You have no historical eveidence of what you say
You have no conculsive arguments for what you say
A pure Guess work.Please don't confuse me with yourself. It is you, as your "haneefan argument" bore out, who is about pure guess work and opinion...not me. Again, it is you, who is taking corrupted verses from the Torah and CONTRADICTING the uncorrupted Quran...not me. Allah, according to Al-Quran, forbade the Jews animals with claws/thufr, yet, you wish to defy Allah's uncorrupted Quran and take the corrupted Torah account that animals with divided hooves are haram. I ask you again...which account is the truth...Torah or Quran? Pick one.
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PEACE, LOLI,
Salam PB,
Just want to know ur opinion o 55. It is said that our food is Halal for the Jews. But what if we(followers of the Quran) ate animals with claws? Will our food be Haram to them?
salam
No, our food wouldn't be haram for them. The Jews were forbidden to eat animals with claws as a punishment for their sins. With the coming of Al-Quran this punishment was lifted, hence, our food is halal for them, in that, animals with claws were never forbidden to us or mankind in general. Was that clear?
Looking forward to your reply.
Peace PB
Do you have prove from the Quran to support ur statement I underlined above?
with Regards
Yes, ayat 55 proves this. It says that our food is lawful to the People of the Book. Now, aren't animals with claws halal for Muslims? If so, then, they are lawful to the People of the Book as well, hence, the prohibition of Jews eating animals with claws, per ayat 55, is lifted. Ayat 7157 also lifts the prohibition of animals with claws
7157 Those who follow the Messenger-Prophet, the Ummi, whom they find written down with them in the Taurat and the Injeel (who) enjoins them good and forbids them evil, and makes lawful to them the good things and makes unlawful to them impure things, and removes from them their burden and the shackles which were upon them; so (as for) those who believe in him and honor him and help him, and follow the light which has been sent down with him, these it is that are the successful.
Now, were the animals with claws made haram to the Jews because those animals were impure or because they were pure but were made haram as a punishment? The animals with claws, prior to their being made haram as punishment, were halal, otherwise, how could they have been made haram? Ayats 55 and 7157 lifts this burden/shackle--not eating animals with claws, from the Jews.
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Hi,
Why is it that people continue to talk past each other?
PB has asked whether the Qur?an or the Torah is to be followed.
He believes the answer is the Qur?an, and so do I, and probably many others.
Let us therefore forget the Torah and concentrate on the Qur?an.The point to concentrate on is whether the word translated as ?pig? only means the animal discussed, or can it mean something in addition to that?
6.145 says that ?khinziirin? is contaminated and because of that we should not eat it, unless one is forced to.
There have been a lot of discussions going on about the contamination of ?swine flesh?. But there are millions of people eating this meat all over the world and they seem to have a bodily health matching that of anyone else.
Any kind of meat becomes contaminated if not treated right, so that can not be it. It must be some contamination existing in the pig that does not exist in any other animals.
Either, this is the case, or the prohibition is not meant for the pig, but something else.Let us first of all establish whether the word ?khinziirin? can mean something else besides ?swine?.
If it can not, then that is the end of discussion, and many pigs are saved.If it can, then we must look into what contamination the meat of this animal may have, compared to all other animals.
If this can be found, then, again case closed, and pigs will wish that Muslims conquer the World.If not, then what are the other possible meanings of the word that may have something to do with meat being unhealthy, or contaminated?
So far, it seems clear, from the Qur?an, that swine is not forbidden for Jews.
Or....................Anyway, let?s stop running in circles and try to come to some conclusions, please. I believe the question is of grave concern to many.
Best regds
Ali Omar
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PBM Now, unless you can refute my analysis of ayats 55 and 6146, relative to swine being halal, as well as, address the following three questions/points, then please refrain from further pestering me, thanks
This has been refuted so many times that now its just a rant from you PB.
Is Al-Quran the The Book of Guidance for mankind or is the Torah the Book of Guidance for mankind or...are both Books the Guidance for mankind? If you need a clue, please look at ayat 2185
Yes, Quran superceding the Torah. If you need a clue, read the verse about refering back to the previous torah.
- Is Al-Quran without error or doubt? Is the Torah without error or doubt? Are both Books without error or doubt? Or, do both Books contain error and doubt? Tell us what you...know.
Both Quran and Torah have been altered. Tht is why God asks us to use common sense, something you have completely missed.
- Al-Quran says that...the animals with claws were made haram to the Jews as food, because the Jews transgressed. Now, pigs don't have claws, so, Al-Quran is contradicting the Torah...which do you believe is the true account? They both cannot be the true account.
Hence why Quran mentions to mankind not to eat pig. Its enforcing the law (Torah) not contradicting it.
You and the others continue to mistranslate khinzeerin, however, it doesn't matter, because ayats 55 and 6146,
Only for you PB lol Only for you lol
yet, you wish to defy Allah's uncorrupted Quran
The Quran is altered. Maybe you should run back to the fools who put this crap inur head the first place and ask them.
The Torah fobids the pig
The Gospel forbids the pig
The Quran forbids the pigHow many more times iwll you humiliate yourself? lol
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PEACE, ALI OMAR,
Thanks for a reasoned post. On the thread, Is Swine Hallal, why the pig cannot be haram was discussed in detail. I don't know if you want to wade through all of those pages, but if you do, there is some good stuff in them. On thread, CONCLUSION OF THE SWINE DEBATE, I explain why ayats 55 and 6146, when taken together, completely destroy any notion that the pig is was ever haram to mankind or the Jews at anytime. Now, while ayats 55 and 6146 don't define what khinzeerin is, they definitely define what it cannot mean--the pig. Was my explanation clear to you? If not, let me know.
Peace.
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SaLaM Ali Omar
But there are millions of people eating this meat all over the world and they seem to have a bodily health matching that of anyone else.
That is probably the worst comparison ever. My grandfather used to smoke the hooka. He is over 100 years old and still alive. So? Does that mean smoking hooka doesnt kill? Or do you think the Government are stupid to warn us from smoking?
There is a reason why pork is forbidden in all the book of Allah. Did this never crossed your mind?
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PEACE, ALI OMAR,
Dear Priest_BookMei,
I will skim through the other thread given time, but I believe I know what you mean, thanks.
Regds
Ali Omar
Good deal and looking forward to your comments.