THE VAST MAJORITY OF MUSLIMS...ARE NOT MUSLIM AT ALL?
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PEACE, MQURAN,
PBM It is evident that you don't know what you are talking about and rather than simply admit that and move on, you prefer to continue to play games.
So essentially, you can say simply whatever you like and not have to explain yourself.
Yes, I can say whatever I like, except, when it comes to Allah and His Deen, then, per ayat 733, it becomes haram to do so. I suggest that you also begin to adhere to this rule.
The truth is, you know that argument is completely irrelevant and you were trying to play on my (btw non-existent) sentiments. Your anti-sunni sentiments are completely undermined by this pathetic resort to sentimentalities.
On the contrary, my argument is absolutely relevent and that is why you have not answered it yet. Ayat 152 simply shreds your sophomoric "haneefan muslim argument". And yes, I am anti-sunni/shia superstition and whatever else isn't of the millet of Abraham.
Oh btw, Muhammad was inspired to follow the millat of Ibrahim (16/123) so dont be so quick to put him down.
I'm not putting The Messenger down at all, where do you get that nonsense from?! Anyway, I'm still waiting for you to show me that ayat where he is defined as "haneefan Muslim", because if you don't, then, according to your "logic", he could not have been absolutely free of shirk as was Abraham.
PBM Al-Islam and Al-Quran are not playthings. Until you can come clean and be mature in this discussion, don't bother posting to me, thanks.
Oh but they are playthings..to YOU. You use them as a sling to attack sunnis. Look at the title of this thread. What's a 'vast majority' of 1.2 billion muslims ? 1 billion ? Do you know even 10, 000 sunnis ? Probably not. Yet you dare to make such an assertion in gross ignorance of 17/36.
I'm not playing any games and well you know it and that is why you are so defensive and continue to play games. You are in profound denial. Anyway, I don't have to know any sunnis personally to know they are not, IN FACT, Muslims. LOL! Was Abraham a sunni Muslim? What are you talking about?! The sunnis/shias, take two things for their guidance--minimally Al-Quran and maximamally the corrupted Sunnah and Hadiths of Bukhari and Co. Once an individual takes two things or more for their guidance, then they are now in shirk, period.
As for 'fact' and 'conjecture', until the next time you get Allah to come down from His Throne and give you a personal lesson, you should stop ranting. All our talks can never be AL-HAQQ as al-haqq is only Allah and His Book. When I use the word 'imply' and 'opine', its only to show that this is as far as I know, being a human. If you don't like it, you can lump it
LOL! your above "comments" are a classic illustration of a rant, please. Allah, in His Quran (I suggest you pick it up and read sometime) commands us to eschew conjecture and adhere to fact. This is discussed in ayat 733, are you familiar with it? If not, get familiar with it as soon as you can, and, while you are at it, get really intimate with the following ayats and analysis
ON HELL
FIRE IS TERRIFYING, SO MUCH SO THAT...
NEW YORK CITY 9/11/01 (AP)-In New York, some of the occupants of each tower above its point of impact made their way upward towards the roof in hope of helicopter rescue. Because of the smoke, no such rescue could safely be attempted. A number of people jumped from the burning building to the streets and roofs below.
PARIS 4/15/05 (AP) - People screamed for help and jumped from windows early Friday as fire and smoke swept through a hotel...
Do you comprehend the above? People lept from great heights rather than be burned to death.
Of the Fire of Hell, Allah says
Say, "The fire of Hell is fiercer in heat." If only they could understand!
Here are some more Quranic FACTS about Hell
280 And they say "The Fire shall not touch us but for a few numbered days" Say "Have ye taken a promise from Allah, for He never breaks His promise? or is it that you say of Allah what ye do not know?"
324 This because they say "The Fire shall not touch us but for a few numbered days" For their forgeries deceive them as to their own deen.
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Those who reject Faith, and die rejecting,- on them is Allah's curse, and the curse of angels, and of all mankind;
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They will abide therein Their penalty will not be lightened, nor will respite be their (lot).
2167 And those who followed shall say Had there been for us a return, then we would renounce them as they have renounced us. Thus will Allah show them their deeds to be intense regret to them, and they shall not come forth from the fire.
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Their wish will be to get out of the Fire, but never will they get out therefrom their penalty will be one that endures.
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It will also be said "This Day We will forget you as ye forgot the meeting of this Day of yours! and your abode is the Fire, and no helpers have ye!
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"This, because ye used to take the Ayats of Allah in jest, and the life of the world deceived you" (From) that Day, therefore, they shall not be taken out thence, nor shall they be received into Grace.
4;56 (As for) those who disbelieve in Our ayats, We shall make them ENTER the fire; so oft as their skins are thoroughly burned, We will change them for other skins, that they may taste the chastisement; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise.
The above two ayats, dispell the sunni/shia superstitious notion that, so-called muslims, who go to Hell, will eventually be taken out. FACT, Hell is permanent!
CAN ONE BE SAVED ON ONE'S DEATH BED OR AFTER DEATH?
- Allah accept the repentance of those who do evil in ignorance and repent soon afterwards; to them will Allah turn in mercy For Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom.
4 18. Of no effect is the repentance of those who continue to do evil, until death faces one of them, and he says, "Now have I repented indeed;" nor of those who die rejecting Faith for them have We prepared a punishment most grievous.
Well, I guess those two ayats speak real loud and clear for themselves, eh? If you die in shirk...well, without doubt, Hell is the consequence. Wake up while you are still able to do so. wink
Study the following and learn what is shirk and how to avoid it. Save yourself and your family
6.151 Say Come I will recite what your Lord has forbidden to you-- (remember) that you do not associate anything with Him and show kindness to your parents, and do not slay your children for (fear of) poverty-- We provide for you and for them-- and do not draw nigh to indecencies, those of them which are apparent and those which are concealed, and do not kill the soul which Allah has forbidden except for the requirements of justice; this He has enjoined you with that you may understand.
1722 Take not with Allah another object of worship; or thou (O man!) wilt sit in disgrace and destitution.
18110 Say I am only a mortal like you; it is revealed to me that your god is one God, therefore whoever hopes to meet his Lord, he should do good deeds, and not join anyone in the service of his Lord.
5151 And do not set up with Allah another god surely I am a plain warner to you from Him.
448 Surely Allah does not forgive that anything should be associated with Him, and forgives what is besides that to whomsoever He pleases; and whoever associates anything with Allah, he devises indeed a great sin.
4116 Surely Allah does not forgive that anything should be associated with Him, and He forgives what is besides this to whom He pleases; and whoever associates anything with Allah, he indeed strays off into a remote error.
298 We have enjoined on man kindness to parents but if they (either of them) strive (to force) you to join with Me (in worship) anything of which you have no knowledge, obey them not. You have (all) to return to me, and I will tell you (the truth) of all that you did.
18103 Say "Shall we tell you of those who lose most in respect of their deeds?-
18104 "Those whose efforts have been wasted in this life, while they thought that they were acquiring good by their works?"
18110 Say I am only a mortal like you; it is revealed to me that your god is one God, therefore whoever hopes to meet his Lord, he should do good deeds, and not join any one in the service of his Lord.
We are commanded to follow the deen of Abraham
2130 And who turns away from the deen of Abraham but such as debase their souls with folly? Him We chose and rendered pure in this world And he will be in the Hereafter in the ranks of the Righteous.
- Behold! his Lord said to him "Submit" He said "I submit (my will) to the Lord and Cherisher of the Universe."
395 Say "(Allah) speaketh the Truth follow the deen/millet of Abraham, the sane in faith; he was not of the rejectors/mushrikeen."
4125 Who can be better in deen than one who submits his whole self to Allah, does good, and follows the way of Abraham the true in Faith? For Allah did take Abraham for a friend.
6161 Say "Verily, my Lord has guided me to a way that is straight,- a deen/millet of right,- the path (trod) by Abraham the true in Faith, and he (certainly) joined not gods with Allah."
2278 And strive in His cause as you ought to strive, (with sincerity and under discipline). He has chosen you, and has imposed no difficulties on you in religion; it is the deen of your father Abraham. It is He Who has named you Muslims, both before and in this (Revelation); that the Messenger may be a witness for you, and ye be witnesses for mankind! So establish regular Prayer, give regular Charity, and hold fast to Allah. He is your Protector - the Best to protect and the Best to help!
Main Entry ASSOCIATE to join as a partner, friend, or companion to join or conncet togethercombine.
Main Entry PARTNER one that shares one associated with another especially in an action.
Main Entry EQUAL like in quality, nature, or status.
Main Entry CO-EQUAL equal with one another
Main Entry SUPPLEMENT/SUPPLEMENTARY something that completes or makes an addition a part added to or issued as a continuation of a book or periodical to make additions.
Main Entry THING a separate and distinct individual quality, fact, idea, or usually entity an inanimate object distinguished from a living being a spoken or written observation or point.
Main Entry LEGISLATION the exercise of the power and function of making rules (as laws) that have the force of authority...
6.164 Say What! shall I seek a Lord other than Allah? And He is the Lord of all things; and no soul earns (evil) but against itself, and no bearer of burden shall bear the burden of another; then to your Lord is your return, so He will inform you of that in which you differed.
3.80 And neither would he enjoin you that you should take the angels and the prophets for lords; what! would he enjoin you with unbelief after you are Muslims.
9.31 They have taken their doctors of law and their monks for lords besides Allah, and (also) the Messiah son of Marium and they were enjoined that they should serve one God only, there is no god but He; far from His glory be what they set up (with Him).
12.39 O my two mates of the prison! are sundry lords better or Allah the One, the Supreme?
Main Entry LORD/RABB/ARBAB one having power and authority over others a ruler by hereditary right or preeminence to whom service and obedience are due b one that has achieved mastery or that exercises leadership or great power in some area a man of rank or high position.
12.38 And I follow the deen/millet of my fathers, Ibrahim and Ishaq and Yaqoub; it beseems us not that we should associate anything with Allah; this is by Allah's grace upon us and on mankind, but most people do not give thanks
Hence, the so-called "sunnah of the prophet" and the "hadiths" of Bukhari et. al., are considered to be either co-equal with Al-Quran or supplementary to Al-Quran. Regardles as to whether these things are co-equal with or supplementary to Al-Quran, they both represent being "partners" in guidance with Allah, hence, to use them for one's guidance/salvation of one's soul, is shirk/haram.
1028 And on the day when We will gather them all together, then We will say to those who associated others (with Allah) Keep where you are, you and your associates; then We shall separate them widely one from another and their associates would say It was not us that you served
2167 And those who followed shall say Had there been for us a return, then we would renounce them as they have renounced us. Thus will Allah show them their deeds to be intense regret to them, and they shall not come forth from the fire.
1015 And when Our clear ayats are recited to them, those who hope not for Our meeting say Bring a Quran other than this or change it. Say It does not beseem me that I should change it of myself; I follow naught but what is revealed to me; surely I fear, if I disobey my Lord, the punishment of a mighty day.
- Say the things that my Lord hath indeed forbidden are shameful deeds, whether open or secret; sins and trespasses against truth or reason; assigning of partners to Allah, for which He hath given no authority; and saying things about Allah of which you have no knowledge.
2415 When you received it with your tongues and spoke with your mouths what you had no knowledge of, and you deemed it an easy matter while with Allah it was grievous.
I won't expect a reply for a considerable time. You will need time to digest the above.
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Salaams MQuran,SB,
You Said
It is clear that, the term for Christian in ayat 569, cannot mean Christian. Christians are mushriks/polytheists, in that, they say Allah is trinity or that Jesus is both Allah and Allah's son. Shirk, is the great/azam sin. Do you see, now?
But looking at these Ayah?s,aren?t they Christian Br.
Line118 Waqaloo lan yadkhula aljannata illaman kana hoodan aw nasara tilka amaniyyuhumqul hatoo burhanakum in kuntum sadiqeena
And they say "None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian." Those are their (vain) desires. Say "Produce your proof if ye are truthful."
Some have said, "No one will enter Paradise except Jews or Christians!" Such is their wishful thinking. Say, "Show us your proof, if you are right."
Line120 Waqalati alyahoodu laysati alnnasaraAAala shay-in waqalati alnnasaralaysati alyahoodu AAala shay-in wahum yatloona alkitabakathalika qala allatheena layaAAlamoona mithla qawlihim faAllahu yahkumubaynahum yawma alqiyamati feema kanoo feehiyakhtalifoona
The Jews say "The Christians have naught (to stand) upon; and the Christians say "The Jews have naught (To stand) upon." Yet they (Profess to) study the (same) Book. Like unto their word is what those say who know not; but Allah will judge between them in their quarrel on the Day of Judgment.
The Jews said, "The Christians have no basis," while the Christians said, "The Jews have no basis." Yet, both of them read the scripture. Such are the utterances of those who possess no knowledge. GOD will judge them on the Day of Resurrection, regarding their disputes.
Line127 Walan tarda AAanka alyahoodu walaalnnasara hatta tattabiAAamillatahum qul inna huda Allahi huwa alhudawala-ini ittabaAAta ahwaahum baAAda allathee jaakamina alAAilmi ma laka mina Allahi min waliyyin walanaseerin
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion. Say "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance." Wert thou to follow their desires after the knowledge which hath reached thee, then wouldst thou find neither Protector nor helper against Allah.
Neither the Jews, nor the Christians, will accept you, unless you follow their religion. Say, "GOD's guidance is the true guidance." If you acquiesce to their wishes, despite the knowledge you have received, you will find no ally or supporter to help you against GOD.
Line142 Waqaloo koonoo hoodan aw nasaratahtadoo qul bal millata ibraheema haneefan wamakana mina almushrikeena
They say "Become Jews or Christians if ye would be guided (To salvation)." Say thou "Nay! (I would rather) the Religion of Abraham the True, and he joined not gods with Allah."
They said, "You have to be Jewish or Christian, to be guided." Say, "We follow the religion of Abraham - monotheism - he never was an idol worshiper."
Gods Blessings.
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Salaam MZ,
It is clear that, the term for Christian in ayat 569, cannot mean Christian. Christians are mushriks/polytheists, in that, they say Allah is trinity or that Jesus is both Allah and Allah's son. Shirk, is the great/azam sin. Do you see, now?
Agreed. I think 'nasara' means 'helpers' as a basic meaning.
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Salaams MQuran,
Yes it does mean helpers according to Dictioneries but who are these helpers you can see by looking at these ayah's though - i think.
And Frankly they do seem to be Christians according to the meanings/contexts of the Ayah's,Don't you reckon?
Please check and then tell your conc
569,2111,2113,2120,2135,
Thanks.
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PEACE, MZ357,
Salaams MQuran,SB,
You Said
It is clear that, the term for Christian in ayat 569, cannot mean Christian. Christians are mushriks/polytheists, in that, they say Allah is trinity or that Jesus is both Allah and Allah's son. Shirk, is the great/azam sin. Do you see, now?
But looking at these Ayah?s,aren?t they Christian Br.
MZ, if those ayats mean Christian, as we know Christians today, then those ayats are in contradiction to these ayats
4171 O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only an apostle of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His apostles, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one God; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector.
573 Certainly they disbelieve who say Surely Allah is the third (person) of the three; and there is no god but the one God, and if they desist not from what they say, a painful chastisement shall befall those among them who disbelieve.
5116 And when Allah will say O Isa son of Marium! did you say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah he will say Glory be to Thee, it did not befit me that I should say what I had no right to (say); if I had said it, Thou wouldst indeed have known it; Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I do not know what is in Thy mind, surely Thou art the great Knower of the unseen things.
184-5 And warn those who say Allah has taken a son.
They have no knowledge of it, nor had their fathers; a grievous word it is that comes out of their mouths; they speak nothing but a lie.Now, as you know, Al-Quran cannot contradict itself, hence, Christian (nasara/supporters) cannot mean Christian as we know it today. This should be clear to you now. If not, I don't know how to make it any plainer to you.
Looking forward to your reply.
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Salaams SB,
True.
But we need research on what is Nassara .
Good work on your part.
Gods Blessings.
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Salaam PB,
I'm already aware of this but thanks for the info
Peace
Sis Majidah -
PEACE, MZ357,
Salaams SB,
True.
But we need research on what is Nassara .
Good work on your part.
Gods Blessings.
I agree that we we now need to come to understand what Nasara means. It is my understanding that, both the Jews (the guided ones), who opposed Jesus, on paper anyway, were--monotheists and the Nasara (the supporters) of Jesus were also monotheists, hence, the Nasara/"Christians", were not originally polytheists. What is your understanding? I'm certain you will bring some good information on this as you did with khinzeerin in the Torah.
Looking forward to your reply.
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PEACE, SWEDEN M.,
Salaam PB,
I'm already aware of this but thanks for the info
Peace
Sis MajidahGood deal; glad to hear it; you right on top of stuff.
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Salaams SB,
Although most Christians believe in one God, they profess that this God is, in fact, three persons God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit (collectively called the Trinity), Christians insist that their faith is monotheistic. Typically, Christian theology holds that these three persons are not independent but are 'homoousios', that is sharing the same essence or substance of divinity. However, some have suggested that Christianity is a form of Tritheism. Moreover, some minority sects of Christianity, such as the Jehovah's Witnesses, deny the idea of Trinity, while others, such as some sects of Mormonism, worship only one god
http//www.monks.org/aloneingod.html
Salaams.
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PEACE, MZ357,
Salaams SB,
you are right they still exist,
http//www.monks.org/aloneingod.html
Salaams.
This is not quite what I meant. The nasara, it appears, were Jews, who supported the mission of Jesus, as opposed to the Jews( the guided ones), who didn't. The link you provided are not the same as the nasara in the time of Jesus. These people/Christians today, are trinitarians
http//www.bardstown.com/~brchrys/homilies/mk060604.htm
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Salaams SB,All,
A Hard Quistion for you!
If we bow to the Arab Kaaba , but also live our lives according to the commands of Allah ,are we among the saved ones or lost ones?
Equaly well we can say If we believe Jesus is son of Allah or Allah,or that a wall in my garden is Allah but we obey every command of Allah , what then?
Gods Peace.
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PEACE, MZ357,
Salaams SB,All,
A Hard Quistion for you!
If we bow to the Arab Kaaba , but also live our lives according to the commands of Allah ,are we among the saved ones or lost ones?
Equaly well we can say If we believe Jesus is son of Allah or Allah,or that a wall in my garden is Allah but we obey every command of Allah , what then?
Gods Peace.
Hell is the consequence for both examples, unless, before they die or see death coming, repent
18103-110. Say "Shall we tell you of those who lose most in respect of their deeds?- "Those whose efforts have been wasted in this life, while they thought that they were acquiring good by their works?" They are those who deny the Ayats of their Lord and the fact of their having to meet Him (in the Hereafter) vain will be their works, nor shall We, on the Day of Judgment, give them any weight. That is their reward, Hell, because they rejected Faith, and took My Signs and My Messengers by way of jest. Say "I am but a man like yourselves, (but) the inspiration has come to me, that your Allah is one Allah. whoever expects to meet his Lord, let him work righteousness, and, in the service of his Lord, admit NO ONE AS PARTNER.
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Salaams Sb,
I think something you said at the start is totally true - from considering what i have come accross whilst researching about this topic.
"It is apparent that, giving partners to Allah/associating things with Allah, is to follow someone else's guidance either exclusive to Allah or in conjuction with Allah. As with muslim, then, the definition of polytheist/mushrik, likewise, is/must be unmistakeable/quite clear , otherwise, how would know if one is a polytheist or not? "
And this of coarse applies equaly well to poeple who follow others for guidance who contradict Allah.
But if they don't contradict Allah then its a different ball game alltogether.
Salaams.
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Salaams SB,
you said"Hell is the consequence for both examples, unless, before they die or see death coming, repent "
I think most people most people may be just labeling themselves rather then practicing what the labels stand for , but is Allah going to look at the label or our actions in this world?
here is what i think worship is - you may agree
"You worship besides Allah only idols, and you only invent falsehood. Verily, those whom you worship besides Allah have no power to give you provision, so seek your provision from Allah (Alone), and worship Him (Alone), and be grateful to Him. To Him (Alone) you will be brought back. 2917
According to the Holy Quran there is a group of persons who have been and are given an equal status with God and have been the object of WORSHIP by people of different ages. Such persons are the religious leaders
They have taken their priests and their monks for their Lords besides God, and also the Masih son of Maryam; whereas they Were commanded not but to worship the One God no god is there but he. Hallowed be He from that which they associate' .931
The people of the Book were commanded to WORSHIP (obey Allah and His command only) but they took their priests and their monks as their Lord and obeyed them blindly.
For the people of the Book if the Divine laws did not forbid something, it was declared forbidden by their leader, they abided by this; similarly things their religious leaders declared permissible were also accepted. Therefore the words in the above verse means the acceptance of the priests' decisions, and considering them to be final and beyond reproach, instead of obeying the laws of God. The Jews and the Christians made this mistake because they did not consult the authority of their respective Divine books for a particular issue, and thus considered all that the priests said to be the will of God.
Worship of Pharaoh
They said" shall we believe in two men like ourselves, and their people to us are WORSHIPPERS. 2347
And We sent Moses with Our Clear (Signs) and an authority manifest To Fir'aun (Pharaoh) and his chiefs, but they followed the command of Fir'aun (Pharaoh), and the command of Fir'aun (Pharaoh) was no right guide. 1196/97
Thus did he make fools of his people and they obeyed him Truly were they a people rebellious (against Allah). 4354
People of Pharaoh did not WORSHIP him but obeyed and followed his command
Salaam.
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PEACE, MZ357,
you said"Hell is the consequence for both examples, unless, before they die or see death coming, repent "
I think most people most people may be just labeling themselves rather then practicing what the labels stand for , but is Allah going to look at the label or our actions in this world?
Our actions and that is why although many label themselves as Muslims, their actions contradict the label. One can only be a Muslim if one serves, that is, takes for his/her guidance, Allah only and alone. We serve Allah by following His Book of Guidance--Al-Quran.
here is what i think worship is - you may agree
Yes, I agree with what you wrote.
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Salaams PB,All,
so is it your opinion that the people who uphold any of the five pillers of Islam are shirkists?
As i think non of these things are in the quran - as taken generally by the muslim majority anyways.
???????????????????????????
God Bless.
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PEACE, MZ357,
Salaams PB,All,
so is it your opinion that the people who uphold any of the five pillers of Islam are shirkists?
As i think non of these things are in the quran - as taken generally by the muslim majority anyways.
???????????????????????????
God Bless.
As much as it troubles to say it...yes .