DO AYATS 5:5 AND 6:146, PRECLUDE THE PIG AS BEING HARAM...?
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Hi,
Why is it that people continue to talk past each other?
PB has asked whether the Qur?an or the Torah is to be followed.
He believes the answer is the Qur?an, and so do I, and probably many others.
Let us therefore forget the Torah and concentrate on the Qur?an.The point to concentrate on is whether the word translated as ?pig? only means the animal discussed, or can it mean something in addition to that?
6.145 says that ?khinziirin? is contaminated and because of that we should not eat it, unless one is forced to.
There have been a lot of discussions going on about the contamination of ?swine flesh?. But there are millions of people eating this meat all over the world and they seem to have a bodily health matching that of anyone else.
Any kind of meat becomes contaminated if not treated right, so that can not be it. It must be some contamination existing in the pig that does not exist in any other animals.
Either, this is the case, or the prohibition is not meant for the pig, but something else.Let us first of all establish whether the word ?khinziirin? can mean something else besides ?swine?.
If it can not, then that is the end of discussion, and many pigs are saved.If it can, then we must look into what contamination the meat of this animal may have, compared to all other animals.
If this can be found, then, again case closed, and pigs will wish that Muslims conquer the World.If not, then what are the other possible meanings of the word that may have something to do with meat being unhealthy, or contaminated?
So far, it seems clear, from the Qur?an, that swine is not forbidden for Jews.
Or....................Anyway, let?s stop running in circles and try to come to some conclusions, please. I believe the question is of grave concern to many.
Best regds
Ali Omar
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PBM Now, unless you can refute my analysis of ayats 55 and 6146, relative to swine being halal, as well as, address the following three questions/points, then please refrain from further pestering me, thanks
This has been refuted so many times that now its just a rant from you PB.
Is Al-Quran the The Book of Guidance for mankind or is the Torah the Book of Guidance for mankind or...are both Books the Guidance for mankind? If you need a clue, please look at ayat 2185
Yes, Quran superceding the Torah. If you need a clue, read the verse about refering back to the previous torah.
- Is Al-Quran without error or doubt? Is the Torah without error or doubt? Are both Books without error or doubt? Or, do both Books contain error and doubt? Tell us what you...know.
Both Quran and Torah have been altered. Tht is why God asks us to use common sense, something you have completely missed.
- Al-Quran says that...the animals with claws were made haram to the Jews as food, because the Jews transgressed. Now, pigs don't have claws, so, Al-Quran is contradicting the Torah...which do you believe is the true account? They both cannot be the true account.
Hence why Quran mentions to mankind not to eat pig. Its enforcing the law (Torah) not contradicting it.
You and the others continue to mistranslate khinzeerin, however, it doesn't matter, because ayats 55 and 6146,
Only for you PB lol Only for you lol
yet, you wish to defy Allah's uncorrupted Quran
The Quran is altered. Maybe you should run back to the fools who put this crap inur head the first place and ask them.
The Torah fobids the pig
The Gospel forbids the pig
The Quran forbids the pigHow many more times iwll you humiliate yourself? lol
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PEACE, ALI OMAR,
Thanks for a reasoned post. On the thread, Is Swine Hallal, why the pig cannot be haram was discussed in detail. I don't know if you want to wade through all of those pages, but if you do, there is some good stuff in them. On thread, CONCLUSION OF THE SWINE DEBATE, I explain why ayats 55 and 6146, when taken together, completely destroy any notion that the pig is was ever haram to mankind or the Jews at anytime. Now, while ayats 55 and 6146 don't define what khinzeerin is, they definitely define what it cannot mean--the pig. Was my explanation clear to you? If not, let me know.
Peace.
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SaLaM Ali Omar
But there are millions of people eating this meat all over the world and they seem to have a bodily health matching that of anyone else.
That is probably the worst comparison ever. My grandfather used to smoke the hooka. He is over 100 years old and still alive. So? Does that mean smoking hooka doesnt kill? Or do you think the Government are stupid to warn us from smoking?
There is a reason why pork is forbidden in all the book of Allah. Did this never crossed your mind?
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PEACE, ALI OMAR,
Dear Priest_BookMei,
I will skim through the other thread given time, but I believe I know what you mean, thanks.
Regds
Ali Omar
Good deal and looking forward to your comments.
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Dear Jaxal,
I understand well that your grandfather is important to you, but for me it doesn?t make sense to compare one person?s health to hundreds of millions of other people. ?
One person may die from eating pork while millions of others, eating the same, live until ripe old age. Is that a reason to forbid pork?
However, if one person kept on living in good health while millions died, I would understand a ban on pork.We have found reasons that make sense to us for most other things God has forbidden for us to consume, say, or do. This thing about pork I do not understand, and would like to find out more.
You do not help out by saying ?pork is forbidden?. It is like telling someone that ?it is forbidden to press this button?, and when you ask ?why?, the answer is ?it is forbidden to press this button?. I would still be curious. hmmIf there is an explanation as to why pork (or whatever) is forbidden, I would like to know. But, in the meantime I try not to ?press the button?, or eat pork.
Regds
Ali Omar
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Salam!
When it is written in the quran that we are not to uphold as truth anything that we cannot verify (if I understand it correctly)... should we then only uphold the things written in the quran that we can verify??? Suppose we believe that pork is prohibited to eat... then do we have to find out why before we follow this unstruction? How do we verify this verse itself? Maybe im burying myself in a circular argument?
shock ? roll ?
Ulf
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Dear Zulf,
If you think something is forbidden, then it is best to avoid doing it, of course.
At the same time God says that it is wrong of us to forbid things that are not forbidden.Here is the dilemma. You think that something is forbidden, but you are not sure.
This means you should look further into it and try to clarify as far as you can. If you are sure, then no problem, you follow what you are certain of. It is only a question between you and God.I for one am not certain, because I can not clearly see the reason behind the prohibition.
If I understand it, OK, then I am satisfied, and follow what I understand.Regds
Ali Omar
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PEACE, ALI OMAR and ZULF,
ZULF When it is written in the quran that we are not to uphold as truth anything that we cannot verify (if I understand it correctly)... should we then only uphold the things written in the quran that we can verify??? Suppose we believe that pork is prohibited to eat... then do we have to find out why before we follow this unstruction? How do we verify this verse itself? Maybe im burying myself in a circular argument?
ALI OMAR If you think something is forbidden, then it is best to avoid doing it, of course. At the same time God says that it is wrong of us to forbid things that are not forbidden. Here is the dilemma. You think that something is forbidden, but you are not sure. This means you should look further into it and try to clarify as far as you can. If you are sure, then no problem, you follow what you are certain of. It is only a question between you and God. I for one am not certain, because I can not clearly see the reason behind the prohibition. If I understand it, OK, then I am satisfied, and follow what I understand.
Consider the following ayats
587 O ye who believe! do not make haram the good things which Allah hath made lawful for you, but commit no excess for Allah loveth not those given to excess.
733 Say the things that my Lord hath indeed made haram are shameful deeds...and saying things about Allah of which you have no knowledge.
16116 But say not - for any false thing that your tongues may put forth,- "This is halal, and this is haram," so as to ascribe false things to Allah. For those who ascribe false things to Allah, will never prosper.
1736 And do not purse/followpursue that of which you have no knowledge; for every act of hearing, or of seeing or of (feeling in) the heart will be enquired into (on the Day of Reckoning).
These ayats are stating that
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One is forbidden to make anything haram (16116).
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It is haram to say anything about Allah or His Deen unless it is Quranic fact (indisputable) 733.
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One is fobidden to pursue/follow anything as truth until one has knowledge of it (indisputable information) 1736.
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Unless we know something to be a Quranic fact, then, one is forbidden to say that something is from Allah or something is haram 733 and 16116.
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We must accept, as in the case of the pig, that it is halal until one can provide the indisputable Quranic fact that it is not 587 and 1736, and not the other way around, that is, consider something to be haram until it can be proven to be halal.
Looking forward to your reply.
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PEACE, ALI OMAR,
SaLaM Ali
The reason pork is forbidden coz pig is a filthy animal. Eats its own poo and doesnt mind eating other garbage. Would you eat an animal that eats its own crap?
Ali, ask Jaxal to go to Al-Quran and provide the ayat which proves his above statement. Check this out, if the pig is haram, as Jaxal claims, because it is filthy, why then, did Allah not make it haram before the advent of Al-Quran? If it is a filthy animal at the time Al-Quran was being revealed, then why wasn't filthy before Al-Quran? Remember now, Allah only made haram to the Jews animals with claws and the fat of oxen and sheep, except that, which adhered to their backs and, Allah made these haram NOT because they were filthy, but as punishment
4160 For the iniquity of the Jews We made unlawful for them certain (foods) good and wholesome which had been lawful for them;- in that they hindered many from Allah's Way;-
Looking forward to your reply.
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Check this out, if the pig is haram, as Jaxal claims, because it is filthy, why then, did Allah not make it haram before the advent of Al-Quran?
See? ur lack of intelligence shows by this statment. Pork WAS forbidded in both Torah and Gospel
If it is a filthy animal at the time Al-Quran was being revealed, then why wasn't filthy before Al-Quran?
Again, a stupid statment. People were worshipping idols before the Quran came. Does that mean Allah did not exist before the Quran came down? Comon PB make intelligent statments.
Remember now, Allah only made haram to the Jews animals with claws and the fat of oxen and sheep, except that, which adhered to their backs
And pork.
llah made these haram NOT because they were filthy, but as punishment
Again, lack of intelligence. Its is both in Torah and the Quran that pork is unclean/filthy.
Say "I do not find in what is inspired to me forbidden except that it be already dead, or blood, or the meat of pig, for it is foul; or what is corruptly dedicated to other than God." Whoever is forced without seeking disobedience or transgression, then your Lord is Forgiving, Merciful.
Sit on that and rotate PB. http//www.geocities.com/bigjaxal/s1.gif
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Priest bokmei, Ali Omar
Peace!At the moment, I don't feel qualified enouigh to decide for myself if pork is the meaning of the word we are looking at.. I haven't had time to research the topic enough... however, I do think that your arguments and logic seem sound and reasonable. Like you said, we cannot declare something haram/forbidden without strong and clear evidence. Innocent until proven guilty.
When one ponders on it, it becomes clear how amazingly little we actually know for fact, and therefore are able to justly uphold as true. It's a silly example, but I can't really even testify about the existance of Australia... never seen it D You know what I mean
Best regards
Ulf -
Salaam Br Jaxal,
How can u say that the pig is so dirty!?
Only because it rolling around in mud!?
Well we are created according to Quran from mud so are we dirty then?
And that's a lie that the pig eats its own poo, I have instead heard that the pig is a very clean animal who choose their own toilet in a special corner and they are also very clever nearly more than dogs.
And if u want to talk about filthy animals then u can mention all birds because they eat everything even poos and I have seen them eating from a throwing up of a human.
Only grasseating animals is real clean to eat in my opinion.
Peace
Sis Majidah -
SaLaM SM
How can u say that the pig is so dirty!?
Only because it rolling around in mud!?
Nope.
Well we are created according to Quran from mud so are we dirty then?
Wouldnt you call mud dirty?
And that's a lie that the pig eats its own poo
No my lovely sis, its not a lie.
And if u want to talk about filthy animals then u can mention all birds because they eat everything even poos and I have seen them eating from a throwing up of a human.
God mentions the pig. There are many many more animals, bird and other mamals that eat worse.
Only grasseating animals is real clean to eat in my opinion.
You are saying that coz you are a half-vegetarian wink
Joe
I think pigs roll in mud for a reason, to cool off. Mud is not necessarily a bad thing, it can be good.
Elephants do that. However that is not why i called them filthy.
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PEACE, SWEDEN M.,
All praises due to Allah. It is really good to see you continue to step away from superstition/foolishness. It is pointless to arue with Jaxal, because he is of set mind and purpose to be of those who go astray, masha-Allah.
Peace.
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Dear Jaxal,
The reason pork is forbidden coz pig is a filthy animal. Eats its own poo and doesnt mind eating other garbage. Would you eat an animal that eats its own crap?
Maybe God was in a bad mood when the pig was created? lol
Anyway, I do not intend to eat what the pig eats ? so I am puzzled that you bring that up, but I wonder, does it make the flesh of the pig unhealthy or bad in any way?
Why on earth can?t you stick to the matter in question? So far, I haven?t gotten any wiser from your comments. You keep on repeating that pigs flesh is forbidden because it?s foul. brickwall And I still understand that hundreds of millions of people live happily eating pork.
So, what?s wrong with it?
I refuse to accept that God rolled dice and the pig came up as forbidden. mrgreen So I believe there must be a reason, or God mentions something else and not the pig.As I still can not find anything wrong with the pig as such, and going through what I have found of discussions on the subject, I am inclined to think that the pig is ?innocent?.
However, the pork-ban is so deep rooted in me that I probably won?t eat it anyway. So far I haven?t missed it.
I have never been overly concerned whether products have been stamped ?halal? or not, as I see this marking as a money-making-machine for the ?holy? people.
Therefore nothing much will change for me, one way or another, but I would still like to know.If you, or anyone, can come up with a proof, i.e. that pig?s meat is foul, I will follow that. Otherwise I understand it the way Priest_BokMei does.
Regds
Ali Omar
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SaLaM Ali
Maybe God was in a bad mood when the pig was created?
Or maybe God was in a bad mode when he created pedophiles. Or Maybe God was in a bad mode when he created murderes.
And I still understand that hundreds of millions of people live happily eating pork.
And hundreds of millions of people smoke and still live. Is smoking healthy?
I refuse to accept that God rolled dice and the pig came up as forbidden.
No. pork is forbidden by God in all His scriptures becoz its unclean.
If you, or anyone, can come up with a proof, i.e. that pig?s meat is foul, I will follow that
Ok brother, here is the shocker. Ready? Here it comes...
Pig eats both its own crap and human crap. A simple google search will shock you with the results. Now, all that crap is not going to cuculand. ITs going in its flesh. A simple course in the biology of digestion will prove that. It shouldnt be THAT mind boggling why pork is forbidden from God in all His scriptures.
So there you have it. pig is an animal which will eat not only its own crap but crap from humans too. So anything said to eat pork is an excuse. Just like there is an excuse to drink alcohol. Or to have sex outside marriage. Or to smoke weed and snort coke. And you dont HAVE to understand it my way http//www.geocities.com/bigjaxal/s1.gif