DO AYATS 5:5 AND 6:146, PRECLUDE THE PIG AS BEING HARAM...?
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PEACE, ALI OMAR,
Dear Priest_BookMei,
I will skim through the other thread given time, but I believe I know what you mean, thanks.
Regds
Ali Omar
Good deal and looking forward to your comments.
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Dear Jaxal,
I understand well that your grandfather is important to you, but for me it doesn?t make sense to compare one person?s health to hundreds of millions of other people. ?
One person may die from eating pork while millions of others, eating the same, live until ripe old age. Is that a reason to forbid pork?
However, if one person kept on living in good health while millions died, I would understand a ban on pork.We have found reasons that make sense to us for most other things God has forbidden for us to consume, say, or do. This thing about pork I do not understand, and would like to find out more.
You do not help out by saying ?pork is forbidden?. It is like telling someone that ?it is forbidden to press this button?, and when you ask ?why?, the answer is ?it is forbidden to press this button?. I would still be curious. hmmIf there is an explanation as to why pork (or whatever) is forbidden, I would like to know. But, in the meantime I try not to ?press the button?, or eat pork.
Regds
Ali Omar
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Salam!
When it is written in the quran that we are not to uphold as truth anything that we cannot verify (if I understand it correctly)... should we then only uphold the things written in the quran that we can verify??? Suppose we believe that pork is prohibited to eat... then do we have to find out why before we follow this unstruction? How do we verify this verse itself? Maybe im burying myself in a circular argument?
shock ? roll ?
Ulf
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Dear Zulf,
If you think something is forbidden, then it is best to avoid doing it, of course.
At the same time God says that it is wrong of us to forbid things that are not forbidden.Here is the dilemma. You think that something is forbidden, but you are not sure.
This means you should look further into it and try to clarify as far as you can. If you are sure, then no problem, you follow what you are certain of. It is only a question between you and God.I for one am not certain, because I can not clearly see the reason behind the prohibition.
If I understand it, OK, then I am satisfied, and follow what I understand.Regds
Ali Omar
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PEACE, ALI OMAR and ZULF,
ZULF When it is written in the quran that we are not to uphold as truth anything that we cannot verify (if I understand it correctly)... should we then only uphold the things written in the quran that we can verify??? Suppose we believe that pork is prohibited to eat... then do we have to find out why before we follow this unstruction? How do we verify this verse itself? Maybe im burying myself in a circular argument?
ALI OMAR If you think something is forbidden, then it is best to avoid doing it, of course. At the same time God says that it is wrong of us to forbid things that are not forbidden. Here is the dilemma. You think that something is forbidden, but you are not sure. This means you should look further into it and try to clarify as far as you can. If you are sure, then no problem, you follow what you are certain of. It is only a question between you and God. I for one am not certain, because I can not clearly see the reason behind the prohibition. If I understand it, OK, then I am satisfied, and follow what I understand.
Consider the following ayats
587 O ye who believe! do not make haram the good things which Allah hath made lawful for you, but commit no excess for Allah loveth not those given to excess.
733 Say the things that my Lord hath indeed made haram are shameful deeds...and saying things about Allah of which you have no knowledge.
16116 But say not - for any false thing that your tongues may put forth,- "This is halal, and this is haram," so as to ascribe false things to Allah. For those who ascribe false things to Allah, will never prosper.
1736 And do not purse/followpursue that of which you have no knowledge; for every act of hearing, or of seeing or of (feeling in) the heart will be enquired into (on the Day of Reckoning).
These ayats are stating that
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One is forbidden to make anything haram (16116).
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It is haram to say anything about Allah or His Deen unless it is Quranic fact (indisputable) 733.
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One is fobidden to pursue/follow anything as truth until one has knowledge of it (indisputable information) 1736.
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Unless we know something to be a Quranic fact, then, one is forbidden to say that something is from Allah or something is haram 733 and 16116.
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We must accept, as in the case of the pig, that it is halal until one can provide the indisputable Quranic fact that it is not 587 and 1736, and not the other way around, that is, consider something to be haram until it can be proven to be halal.
Looking forward to your reply.
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PEACE, ALI OMAR,
SaLaM Ali
The reason pork is forbidden coz pig is a filthy animal. Eats its own poo and doesnt mind eating other garbage. Would you eat an animal that eats its own crap?
Ali, ask Jaxal to go to Al-Quran and provide the ayat which proves his above statement. Check this out, if the pig is haram, as Jaxal claims, because it is filthy, why then, did Allah not make it haram before the advent of Al-Quran? If it is a filthy animal at the time Al-Quran was being revealed, then why wasn't filthy before Al-Quran? Remember now, Allah only made haram to the Jews animals with claws and the fat of oxen and sheep, except that, which adhered to their backs and, Allah made these haram NOT because they were filthy, but as punishment
4160 For the iniquity of the Jews We made unlawful for them certain (foods) good and wholesome which had been lawful for them;- in that they hindered many from Allah's Way;-
Looking forward to your reply.
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Check this out, if the pig is haram, as Jaxal claims, because it is filthy, why then, did Allah not make it haram before the advent of Al-Quran?
See? ur lack of intelligence shows by this statment. Pork WAS forbidded in both Torah and Gospel
If it is a filthy animal at the time Al-Quran was being revealed, then why wasn't filthy before Al-Quran?
Again, a stupid statment. People were worshipping idols before the Quran came. Does that mean Allah did not exist before the Quran came down? Comon PB make intelligent statments.
Remember now, Allah only made haram to the Jews animals with claws and the fat of oxen and sheep, except that, which adhered to their backs
And pork.
llah made these haram NOT because they were filthy, but as punishment
Again, lack of intelligence. Its is both in Torah and the Quran that pork is unclean/filthy.
Say "I do not find in what is inspired to me forbidden except that it be already dead, or blood, or the meat of pig, for it is foul; or what is corruptly dedicated to other than God." Whoever is forced without seeking disobedience or transgression, then your Lord is Forgiving, Merciful.
Sit on that and rotate PB. http//www.geocities.com/bigjaxal/s1.gif
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Priest bokmei, Ali Omar
Peace!At the moment, I don't feel qualified enouigh to decide for myself if pork is the meaning of the word we are looking at.. I haven't had time to research the topic enough... however, I do think that your arguments and logic seem sound and reasonable. Like you said, we cannot declare something haram/forbidden without strong and clear evidence. Innocent until proven guilty.
When one ponders on it, it becomes clear how amazingly little we actually know for fact, and therefore are able to justly uphold as true. It's a silly example, but I can't really even testify about the existance of Australia... never seen it D You know what I mean
Best regards
Ulf -
Salaam Br Jaxal,
How can u say that the pig is so dirty!?
Only because it rolling around in mud!?
Well we are created according to Quran from mud so are we dirty then?
And that's a lie that the pig eats its own poo, I have instead heard that the pig is a very clean animal who choose their own toilet in a special corner and they are also very clever nearly more than dogs.
And if u want to talk about filthy animals then u can mention all birds because they eat everything even poos and I have seen them eating from a throwing up of a human.
Only grasseating animals is real clean to eat in my opinion.
Peace
Sis Majidah -
SaLaM SM
How can u say that the pig is so dirty!?
Only because it rolling around in mud!?
Nope.
Well we are created according to Quran from mud so are we dirty then?
Wouldnt you call mud dirty?
And that's a lie that the pig eats its own poo
No my lovely sis, its not a lie.
And if u want to talk about filthy animals then u can mention all birds because they eat everything even poos and I have seen them eating from a throwing up of a human.
God mentions the pig. There are many many more animals, bird and other mamals that eat worse.
Only grasseating animals is real clean to eat in my opinion.
You are saying that coz you are a half-vegetarian wink
Joe
I think pigs roll in mud for a reason, to cool off. Mud is not necessarily a bad thing, it can be good.
Elephants do that. However that is not why i called them filthy.
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PEACE, SWEDEN M.,
All praises due to Allah. It is really good to see you continue to step away from superstition/foolishness. It is pointless to arue with Jaxal, because he is of set mind and purpose to be of those who go astray, masha-Allah.
Peace.
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Dear Jaxal,
The reason pork is forbidden coz pig is a filthy animal. Eats its own poo and doesnt mind eating other garbage. Would you eat an animal that eats its own crap?
Maybe God was in a bad mood when the pig was created? lol
Anyway, I do not intend to eat what the pig eats ? so I am puzzled that you bring that up, but I wonder, does it make the flesh of the pig unhealthy or bad in any way?
Why on earth can?t you stick to the matter in question? So far, I haven?t gotten any wiser from your comments. You keep on repeating that pigs flesh is forbidden because it?s foul. brickwall And I still understand that hundreds of millions of people live happily eating pork.
So, what?s wrong with it?
I refuse to accept that God rolled dice and the pig came up as forbidden. mrgreen So I believe there must be a reason, or God mentions something else and not the pig.As I still can not find anything wrong with the pig as such, and going through what I have found of discussions on the subject, I am inclined to think that the pig is ?innocent?.
However, the pork-ban is so deep rooted in me that I probably won?t eat it anyway. So far I haven?t missed it.
I have never been overly concerned whether products have been stamped ?halal? or not, as I see this marking as a money-making-machine for the ?holy? people.
Therefore nothing much will change for me, one way or another, but I would still like to know.If you, or anyone, can come up with a proof, i.e. that pig?s meat is foul, I will follow that. Otherwise I understand it the way Priest_BokMei does.
Regds
Ali Omar
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SaLaM Ali
Maybe God was in a bad mood when the pig was created?
Or maybe God was in a bad mode when he created pedophiles. Or Maybe God was in a bad mode when he created murderes.
And I still understand that hundreds of millions of people live happily eating pork.
And hundreds of millions of people smoke and still live. Is smoking healthy?
I refuse to accept that God rolled dice and the pig came up as forbidden.
No. pork is forbidden by God in all His scriptures becoz its unclean.
If you, or anyone, can come up with a proof, i.e. that pig?s meat is foul, I will follow that
Ok brother, here is the shocker. Ready? Here it comes...
Pig eats both its own crap and human crap. A simple google search will shock you with the results. Now, all that crap is not going to cuculand. ITs going in its flesh. A simple course in the biology of digestion will prove that. It shouldnt be THAT mind boggling why pork is forbidden from God in all His scriptures.
So there you have it. pig is an animal which will eat not only its own crap but crap from humans too. So anything said to eat pork is an excuse. Just like there is an excuse to drink alcohol. Or to have sex outside marriage. Or to smoke weed and snort coke. And you dont HAVE to understand it my way http//www.geocities.com/bigjaxal/s1.gif
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Hundreds of millions eat pork, why doesn?t, at least a few, get sick and/or die from it, if it is unhealthy?
Your question is as silly as Priest's argument but now when you have asked it
Trichinellosis became a nationally reportable disease in 1966 in USA
Trichinellosis has a broad clinical presentation, ranging from asymptomatic to fatal. Initial symptoms of abdominal pain, vomiting, diarrhea, constipation, and low-grade fever might occur within 1 week of ingestion of infected meat, as the larvae invade the bowel wall. These symptoms might be followed in approximately 1--8 weeks by facial edema, peripheral edema, headaches, intermittent fever, conjunctivitis, rashes, pruritus, cough, myalgia, and eosinophilia, as the larvae migrate through the tissues and encyst in the muscles (2,3). Fatal cases might result from neurologic and myocardial complications (3).And one of the major cause for this disease is Pig.
During 1947--1951, a median of 393 cases (range 327--487) was reported annually, including 57 trichinellosis-related deaths
Another list of diseases and deaths related with pork can be given; but that is not the point other animals can cause similar diseases too.
Quran is very clear it says "laham al khanzeer" is prohibted
"Laham" is "Flesh" Khanzeer is "swine" in Arabic
In Hebrew it is "Khazeer" in aramanic it is "Khanzeer" all these languages are interelated, if any one has another translation for that he should bring it forward and back it with some evidences.Now if some one after these clear verses of Quran wants to have the pork; well there is no law in the world which can stop him/her go on enjoy.
Prohibited for you are animals that die of themselves, blood, the meat of pigs, and animals dedicated to other than GOD strangled, struck with an object, fallen from a height, gored, attacked by a wild animal - unless you save your animal before it dies - and animals sacrificed on altars. Also prohibited is dividing the meat through a game of chance; this is an abomination. Today, the disbelievers have given up concerning your religion; do not fear them and fear Me instead. Today, I have completed your religion, perfected My blessing upon you, and I have decreed Islam as the religion for you. If one is forced by famine (to eat prohibited food), without being deliberately sinful, then GOD is Forgiver, Merciful.
They consult you concerning what is lawful for them; say, "Lawful for you are all good things, including what trained dogs and falcons catch for you." You train them according to GOD's teachings. You may eat what they catch for you, and mention GOD's name thereupon. You shall observe GOD. GOD is most efficient in reckoning.Today, all good food is made lawful for you. The food of the people of the scripture is lawful for you, . Also, you may marry the chaste women among the believers, as well as the chaste women among the followers of previous scripture, provided you pay them their due dowries. You shall maintain chastity, not committing adultery, nor taking secret lovers. Anyone who rejects faith, all his work will be in vain, and in the Hereafter he will be with the losers.
You and the others continue to mistranslate khinzeerin, however, it doesn't matter,
It does matter what is your translation???
For those who are Jewish we prohibited animals with undivided hoofs; and of the cattle and sheep we prohibited the fat, except that which is carried on their backs, or in the viscera, or mixed with bones. That was a retribution for their transgressions, and we are truthful.
Ok; let us assume that Allah never prohibited Pork for Jews and accept your logic for a while that the translations of all the scholars are wrong.
Then it was past about Jews and the present is Quran the final revelation which is saying that from now the pig is prohibited for Jews as well for Muslims.
6145] Say, "I do not find in the revelations given to me any food that is prohibited for any eater except (1) carrion, (2) running blood, (3) the meat of pigs, for it is contaminated, and (4) the meat of animals blasphemously dedicated to other than GOD." If one is forced (to eat these), without being deliberate or malicious, then your Lord is Forgiver, Most Merciful.and if you still not believe
If they disbelieve you, then say, "Your Lord possesses infinite mercy, but His retribution is unavoidable for the guilty people."because ayats 55 and 6146, when taken together, completely destroy any such notion of the pig being haram. You have yet to refute the 55 and 6146 argument which proves the pig was never ahram to Jews or mankind
Now; here is the point where you are confused and trying to make others confusesd.
PIG was not Haraam for Jews before but from now on it is.
This is only if we follow your lame argument.But infact by your logic or by our logic Conclusion is the same SWINE is prohibited in QURAn! for what reason that is another deabte!
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PEACE, ALI OMAR,
I am inclined to think that the pig is ?innocent?...If you, or anyone, can come up with a proof, i.e. that pig?s meat is foul, I will follow that...However, the pork-ban is so deep rooted in me that I probably won?t eat it anyway. Therefore nothing much will change for me, one way or another, but I would still like to know.
I'm so glad that you made these comments, because it shows the power of jibt/superstition ( superstition to maintain a belief despite the evidence to the contrary.) The question is, given that Allah didn't make the pig haram, hence, as you so well put it, is innocent, why then, wouldn't you eat it? Not to eat it if the opportunity presented it self, is to not believe Allah, but others, hence, ibt/superstition...is shirk. I am not accusing you of shirk at all, Ali, I'm just remarking about how subtle it can it be at times. Looking forward to your thoughts.
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Ra-jah,
Hundreds of millions eat pork, why doesn?t, at least a few, get sick and/or die from it, if it is unhealthy?
Your question is as silly as Priest's argument but now when you have asked it
Trichinellosis became a nationally reportable disease in 1966 in USA
Trichinellosis has a broad clinical presentation, ranging from asymptomatic to fatal. Initial symptoms of abdominal pain, vomiting, diarrhea, constipation, and low-grade fever might occur within 1 week of ingestion of infected meat, as the larvae invade the bowel wall. These symptoms might be followed in approximately 1--8 weeks by facial edema, peripheral edema, headaches, intermittent fever, conjunctivitis, rashes, pruritus, cough, myalgia, and eosinophilia, as the larvae migrate through the tissues and encyst in the muscles (2,3). Fatal cases might result from neurologic and myocardial complications (3).And one of the major cause for this disease is Pig.
During 1947--1951, a median of 393 cases (range 327--487) was reported annually, including 57 trichinellosis-related deaths
Another list of diseases and deaths related with pork can be given; but that is not the point other animals can cause similar diseases too.
Is trichinellosis common in the United States?
Infection was once very common and usually caused by ingestion of undercooked pork. However, infection is now relatively rare. During 1997-2001, an average of 12 cases per year were reported. The number of cases has decreased because of legislation prohibiting the feeding of raw-meat garbage to hogs, commercial and home freezing of pork, and the public awareness of the danger of eating raw or undercooked pork products. Cases are less commonly associated with pork products and more often associated with eating raw or undercooked wild game meats.
http//www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dpd/parasites/trichinosis/factsht_trichinosis.htm#how_spread
Poof! there goes your silly argument.
Quran is very clear it says "laham al khanzeer" is prohibted "Laham" is "Flesh" Khanzeer is "swine" in Arabic. In Hebrew it is "Khazeer" in aramanic it is "Khanzeer" all these languages are interelated, if any one has another translation for that he should bring it forward and back it with some evidences. Now if some one after these clear verses of Quran wants to have the pork; well there is no law in the world which can stop him/her go on enjoy.
Khinzeerin, is defined as both pig and what is seen as ill-seeming/bad. The question which arises is...which definition does Allah use? Your defining khinzeerin as pig, vis a vis 55 and 6146, cannot be Quranically rationalized.
Ok; let us assume that Allah never prohibited Pork for Jews and accept your logic for a while that the translations of all the scholars are wrong. Then it was past about Jews and the present is Quran the final revelation which is saying that from now the pig is prohibited for Jews as well for Muslims. Now; here is the point where you are confused and trying to make others confusesd. PIG was not Haraam for Jews before but from now on it is. This is only if we follow your lame argument.
Thank you! you've made my point. Given that, the pig was never haram for the Jews, when ayat 55 is being revealed it had to have been lawful, thus, making it lawful for the Muslim as well; there is simply no denying this glaring fact, otherwise, a contradiction occurs between 53 and 55
53 Forbidden to you is that which dies of itself, and blood, and flesh of swine...
55 This day (all) the good things are allowed to you; and the food of those who have been given the Book is lawful for you and your food is lawful for them...
The question that arises now is, given that the pig was not haram for the Jews, on what basis then, are you claiming that Allah made it haram?
But infact by your logic or by our logic Conclusion is the same SWINE is prohibited in QURAn! for what reason that is another deabte!
Another debate?! LOL!! what, are you kidding?! this is the debate and you haven't remotely made a case that khinzeerin means pig. You have not overcome ayats 55 and 6146 and, you've had to admit that, Allah, per His Quran...did not make the pig haram to the Jews. So, what is your Quranic basis for why Allah made the pig haram to mankind with the coming of Al-Quran and not prior to the coming of Al-Quran? Please, no conjectures, speculations, notions, or opinions, just the Quranic FACT, thanks.
Now, for you and others to continue to translate khinzeerin as pig, in light of the 55 and 6146, is simply profound denial and superstiton.
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SaLaM Ali
Hundreds of millions eat pork, why doesn?t, at least a few, get sick and/or die from it, if it is unhealthy?
So while God is saying its unclean and dont eat it, you are stuck on how many deaths it has been responsible for?
Khinzeerin, is defined as both pig and what is seen as ill-seeming/bad.
Suddenly??? Wow PB looks like God is opening ur eyes Loooooolllll