Good, Evil And The battle We Have To Win.
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Salaam Jaxal,
Which is why you cannot accept alternative views. My sentiments are with Tay when he says
If you have trouble understanding, perhaps you should ask for articulation, rather than call those who's opinions are different than yours "mind-boggling shock "
Joe
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Peace O,
You stated,
How could you be sure that an orange could not explain the orange tree? I believe an orange could explain the whole universe.
Then please have this orange explain it to me wink
That is easy bro, but first you need to learn the Orangeese. It is the only language an orange is willing to use.
The mind is what you understand now, tomorrow, the mind would be what you understand tomorrow. It is developing and, like the rest of the universe, it has no limit.
As you stated in your reply to Danish, we need to come to an agreement on definitions of words before we delve into their deeper meanings. To me, mind and brain are the same thing, while soul and spirit are the same thing. The mind/brain is finite, while the soul/spirit is infinite. Therein lies our dual-nature.
That is fine, but then again why do you think the mind/brain is not capable of coping with the knowledge the spirit has? And do not get confused between the mind and the ego. The mind has created the ego as shield, yet if your understanding grows to a stage of no selfishness, the ego could slowly vanish. We agreed that the mind is a tool, however, we did not talk about its creativity as tool. I wrote an article some time ago about the mind and the though waves that some sciences believe that thoughts generate waves that affect your surroundings, your daily life. This the ultimate connection between us and the rest of the universe. Our thoughts, which present who we are, what we know, understand, desire and hope for, are creating our existence.There is also another theory that involves the mind which suggests that all what of existence would not exist if there is no observer to confirm its existence.
I have also written about the power of expectations, the general agreed expectations which makes us agree on colours and shapes and the personal expectations which we do not agree on like how an even occurred, or when you do not like the person I like. Expectations could also be sliced in involve other dimensions where the general agreed expectations are different from ours.
All these and more involve the power of the mind. You never know what the collective power of our minds could do. To me what you are talking about is the ignorance of the mind. When the person is ignorant, his mind is also ignorant, but that does not mean that the mind does not have the potential.
I would like to know from you why do you think the devil does not exist. How did you come to this conclusion.
My understanding of God as omnipresent and omniscient leaves no room for another omniscient being that exists strictly as a counterbalance. In simpler terms, there can only be one "One". The traditional understanding of shaytan occupying all of our minds at all times simply doesn't fit. Furthermore, a being created for the sole purpose of driving evil would mean that God created an evil being, which would mean that God, by nature, is atleast partly evil. This, again, doesn't fit.
I see shaytan as the natural consequence of free will. There is no darkness, there is only a temporary obstruction of light. In eastern terms, this is called consciousness versus unconsciousness. It is not Good and Evil. You're either following the path of God, or you're not.
peace,
Tay
Very interesting valid points. I came to my conclusion by following the same pattern we are discussing here. Knowing and not knowing. Knowledge and lack of knowledge, love and fear. Lack of knowledge created fear, fear created ego, ego created selfishness, selfishness resulted in selfish choices, selfish choices are what other people call evil. This process is ours, our life, our duality. God could not be going the same process since God has all knowledge to start with. Unfortunately Religion made the big mistake (or was forced to be that way) by following the same human pattern while claiming to be the message of God. Religion talked about heaven and hell, about a merciful yet vengeful God. It included God in our duality. Religion has created a dual-natured God that could not exist for the simple fact that duality was only created because of the lack of knowledge while God is the all knowing. The Devil was created to represent the duality was God. In reality, it is now obvious why religion had to go though all this trouble unknowingly, it is because it was created by man who could not imagine a God who is different from us, without duality.As to the freewill, it is just another mistake by religion. In reality the freewill is not a prime gift, the prime was again the lack of knowledge which created the duality and because there is duality, there is a choice. They say God gave us the freewill because it is the obvious thing to say while in reality the freewill is just a made up word because it is a by product of our state of life. Animals, plants and mountains do not experience the freewill, not because they were not given the freewill, it is because the can not process information the way we do. Their mind can not create the ego or the individuality. They can not use knowledge to create aeroplanes or weapons as we do. What we were given is something greater than the freewill, it is the power to understand the universe and create anew.
Take care,
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When we said to the angels, "Fall prostrate before Adam," they fell prostrate, except Satan; he refused, was too arrogant, and a disbeliever.I just cannot see how it can be anything BUT an entity.
Peace Jaxal, did you read this story in the Quran thoroughly? I tell you what I will post it for you here and let me know what you think of it.
Coming soon
Bless
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Here you go Jaxal,
All the verses that concerns satan and the creation of man. Read them good and let's discuss the at your own time.
(30)?And when thy Lord said unto the angels Lo! I am about to place a viceroy in the earth, they said Wilt thou place therein one who will do harm therein and will shed blood, while we, we hymn Thy praise and sanctify Thee? He said Surely I know that which ye know not.?(31)?And He taught Adam all the names, then showed them to the angels, saying Inform Me of the names of these, if ye are truthful.?
(32)?They said Be glorified! We have no knowledge saving that which Thou hast taught us. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower, the Wise.?
(33)?He said O Adam! Inform them of their names, and when he had informed them of their names, He said Did I not tell you that I know the secret of the heavens and the earth? And I know that which ye disclose and which ye hide.?
(34)?And when We said unto the angels Prostrate yourselves before Adam, they fell prostrate, all save Iblis. He demurred through pride, and so became a disbeliever.?(35)?And We said O Adam! Dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden, and eat ye freely (of the fruits) thereof where ye will; but come not nigh this tree lest ye become wrong-doers.?
(36)?But Satan caused them to deflect therefrom and expelled them from the (happy) state in which they were; and We said Fall down, one of you a foe unto the other! There shall be for you on earth a habitation and provision for a time.?
(37)?Then Adam received from his Lord words, and He relented toward him. Lo! He is the relenting, the Merciful.?
(38.)?We said Go down, all of you, from hence; but verily there cometh unto you from Me a guidance; and whoso followeth My guidance, there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.?
(39) ?But they who disbelieve, and deny Our revelations, such are rightful Peoples of the Fire. They will abide therein.?
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(39)?Behold! We said to the angels, "Bow down to Adam" They bowed down except Iblis. He was one of the Jinns, and he broke the Command of his Lord. Will ye then take him and his progeny as protectors rather than Me? And they are enemies to you! Evil would be the exchange for the wrong-doers!?
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?O ye Children of Adam! Let not Satan seduce you, in the same manner as He got your parents out of the Garden, stripping them of their raiment, to expose their shame for he and his tribe watch you from a position where ye cannot see them We made the evil ones friends (only) to those without faith.?
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(26)?We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape;?
(27)?And the Jinn race, We had created before, from the fire of a scorching wind.?
(28.)?Behold! thy Lord said to the angels "I am about to create man, from sounding clay from mud moulded into shape;?
(29)"When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him."
(30)?So the angels prostrated themselves, all of them together?
(31)?Not so Iblis he refused to be among those who prostrated themselves.?
(32)?(Allah) said "O Iblis! what is your reason for not being among those who prostrated themselves?"
(33)?(Iblis) said "I am not one to prostrate myself to man, whom Thou didst create from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape."
(34)?(Allah) said "Then get thee out from here; for thou art rejected, accursed.
(35)"And the curse shall be on thee till the day of Judgment."
(36)?(Iblis) said "O my Lord! give me then respite till the Day the (dead) are raised."
(37)?(Allah) said "Respite is granted thee?
(38.)"Till the Day of the Time appointed."
(39)?(Iblis) said "O my Lord! because Thou hast put me in the wrong, I will make (wrong) fair-seeming to them on the earth, and I will put them all in the wrong,-?
(40)"Except Thy servants among them, sincere and purified (by Thy Grace)."
(41)?(Allah) said "This (way of My sincere servants) is indeed a way that leads straight to Me.?
(42)"For over My servants no authority shalt thou have, except such as put themselves in the wrong and follow thee."
(43)?And verily, Hell is the promised abode for them all!?
(44)?To it are seven gates for each of those gates is a (special) class (of sinners) assigned.?(26)
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(44)(71) ?Behold, thy Lord said to the angels "I am about to create man from clay?
(72) "When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him."
(73) ?So the angels prostrated themselves, all of them together ?
(74) ?Not so Iblis he was haughty, and became one of those who reject Faith.?
(75)?(Allah) said "O Iblis! What prevents thee from prostrating thyself to one whom I have created with my hands? Art thou haughty? Or art thou one of the high (and mighty) ones?"
(76) ?(Iblis) said "I am better than he thou createdst me from fire, and him thou createdst from clay."
(77)(Allah) said "Then get thee out from here for thou art rejected, accursed.
(78.) "And My curse shall be on thee till the Day of Judgment."
(79) ?(Iblis) said "O my Lord! Give me then respite till the Day the (dead) are raised."
(80) ?(Allah) said "Respite then is granted thee-?
(81) "Till the Day of the Time Appointed."
(82) ?(Iblis) said "Then, by Thy power, I will put them all in the wrong,- ?
(83)"Except Thy Servants amongst them, sincere and purified (by Thy Grace)."
(84) ?(Allah) said "Then it is just and fitting- and I say what is just and fitting-?
(85) "That I will certainly fill Hell with thee and those that follow thee,- every one."(71)
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(85)(61) ?Behold! We said to the angels "Bow down unto Adam" They bowed down except Iblis He said, "Shall I bow down to one whom Thou didst create from clay?"
(62) ?He said "Seest Thou? this is the one whom Thou hast honoured above me! If Thou wilt but respite me to the Day of Judgment, I will surely bring his descendants under my sway - all but a few!"
(63) ?(Allah) said "Go thy way; if any of them follow thee, verily Hell will be the recompense of you (all)- an ample recompense.?
(64)"Lead to destruction those whom thou canst among them, with thy (seductive) voice; make assaults on them with thy cavalry and thy infantry; mutually share with them wealth and children; and make promises to them." But Satan promises them nothing but deceit.?
(65)"As for My servants, no authority shalt thou have over them" Enough is thy Lord for a Disposer of affairs.?(61)
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SaLaM Joe and openurmind
Which is why you cannot accept alternative views. My sentiments are with Tay
Joe why do expect anyone to accept anything other than what it is? You are assuming i refuse to accept an alternative view. Thats an assumption you should keep to yourself.
Openurmind, first of all, thanks for going through all that trouble to post these verses of God for me. But i am a bit confused. Did u misunderstand me? I am saying that there IS an entity called Iblees. These verses confirm that. Or maybe it is me who has completely missed what you were trying to point out. Evil and Iblees are two different things. Agree? One is a characterer and the other is an entity. I agree that a 'character', i.e evil, does not exist in a physical form. Its more of a mental condition. But Iblees, as the verses above show, does exist in a 'physical' form. I hope you understand.
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Salaam Jaxal,
Joe why do expect anyone to accept anything other than what it is?
What it is to you is not what it is to me. Obviously what it is to you is also not what it is to others. I do not get your logic here.
You are assuming i refuse to accept an alternative view. Thats an assumption you should keep to yourself.
What I mean is that you do not even mind them. You're like, 'No, that's wrong' or 'Oh no, it's not like that' or 'No I do not think so it's not what it is'. I may not accept alternative views, but I do not go around saying, 'No you're wrong' all the time. Loosen up dude.
Joe
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SaLaM Joe
'No, that's wrong' or 'Oh no, it's not like that' or 'No I do not think so it's not what it is'
rotfl I really sound like that??? rotfl . I have to say this, i DONT ever mean to make it sound like that. Infact, im proud that we all have our own beliefs and our own releationship with God. Really i am. Like Tay for example, Im completely ok with his belief. Its just that, i like to say it the way it is. Sorry if that comes across as arrogant.
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Peace O,
first you need to learn the Orangeese. It is the only language an orange is willing to use.
Damnit! I wasted my money learning fruitian thinking they all spoke the same language oops
That is fine, but then again why do you think the mind/brain is not capable of coping with the knowledge the spirit has? And do not get confused between the mind and the ego...
OK, O, time out, hit the brakes, too much information. We need to slow down man! You're using a lot of jargon that slips between psychology, western philosophy, and eastern philosophy.
Please, let's just take this chat one step at a time because a lot of the stuff you've mentioned I agree with but we need to put these concepts in their proper order for the sake of maintaining one conversation.
Now here's my first question for you in the hope of understanding what you mean by the word "mind". Do you view the mind as the same thing as the brain? Please explain in detail and we'll take it from there.
Thanks,
Tay -
What you mean by the word "mind". Do you view the mind as the same thing as the brain? Please explain in detail and we'll take it from there.
Thanks,
Taywell, I am not sure what the conventional terms, but I will tell you what I think. The brain is the substance, the physical matter that process and stores, it is the regulator that helps all organs to function as it is the primary part of the nervous system. The mind is the whole thing including the thinking, the process of sorting and analysing, and perception. If you are inspired for example, I believe it is the mind that receives the ideas, and the brain is the hardware the mind uses to process the new idea. Some people use the word brain to mean the mind or the other way around, however, when it comes to the consciousness, we should not refer to the brain, unless you decide that both are just one thing. The ego is the character that is formed from your personal experience. It is neither the mind nor the brain.
God belss
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Peace O,
OK, I agree with everything you've said except...
The ego is the character that is formed from your personal experience. It is neither the mind nor the brain.
If the ego is not a product of the mind, what is it a product of?
Well, I did not mean to say it is not a product of the mind, I meant it is not the mind itself. Some people refer to the ego as if is the totality of your mind, I do not agree with that. -
Peace O,
My apologies for the delay.
you stated
Well, I did not mean to say it is not a product of the mind, I meant it is not the mind itself. Some people refer to the ego as if is the totality of your mind, I do not agree with that.
Excellent. So we're in agreement with the understanding of mind, brain, and ego. Now on to the meat of the matter. I believe the soul/spirit is the part of us that is infinitely intertwined with all that is. It is our eternal self. It is the part of us that experiences without judgement - the observer of the mind, which includes observance of the ego, and of course, observance of the body.
Therefore, the illusory duality of man consists of soul and mind. The soul is the only real essence, while the mind is the lens through which the soul experiences life. All physical and mental processes take place via the mind, and all are observed by the soul.
Please tell me if you're with me so far, because I would be interested in your thoughts on a very imporatant question which these understandings beg to be asked.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Tay,
I agree withevery word you said, and I wouldn't have put better than you did. Looking forwar to your question, and I have also some of own.
God bless
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Okie Dokie O,
Here's the thing...if the soul is that which is interconnected with the Infinite, then the soul itself is not really developmental since this would imply a finite process. If the soul is not developmental, then nothing the soul observes via the mind can have an effect on the soul. The soul just is. Thus, the process of life takes on no meaning. Right?
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Okie Dokie O,
Here's the thing...if the soul is that which is interconnected with the Infinite, then the soul itself is not really developmental since this would imply a finite process. If the soul is not developmental, then nothing the soul observes via the mind can have an effect on the soul. The soul just is. Thus, the process of life takes on no meaning. Right?
If we think of Soul as in a process of infinite contemplation of itself then there is meaning to life perhaps?
Just my two cents worth of thoughts... -)
Regards,
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Interesting LoteTree. I now recall brother Kyle's mention a while back that we are a tool for the God to experience, which I was adamantly against. Now I'm not so sure.
Kyle, if you're listening, could you elaborate?
Peace,
TayHello Tay,
Do you think contemplation is same as experience?
Regards,
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Peace Lote,
I don't think they are the same, but mutually dependant.
In that case Tay, then Soul is in contemplation of the totality of all experiences?
Regards,
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Okie Dokie O,
Here's the thing...if the soul is that which is interconnected with the Infinite, then the soul itself is not really developmental since this would imply a finite process. If the soul is not developmental, then nothing the soul observes via the mind can have an effect on the soul. The soul just is. Thus, the process of life takes on no meaning. Right?
Peace Tay,
I was thinking the same way like LoteTree, if what you are saying is true, then how could we fit experience, self realisation, and the purpose of life. The only way out is to think if infinite as ever expanding, continuously creating itself. One time I thought of it as the heart beats that continuously confirm that a creature is alive. The infinite absolute has all knowledge, yet the experience we have in this life is unique and could not be experienced by an absolute infinite God. That does not mean that the infinite lacks what we experience if we are part of that infinite and we are one. We are this part of him that allows him to experience his own truth. As I told you before do not underestimate the mind. I know it is the reason we have an ego and you think it is also behind the illusion, it is finite. But one thing you should consider, what is the mind got hold of the absolute knowledge?
That takes me back to how I always looked at it.
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God,
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the universe,
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and humans.
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The beginning God= Knowledge + Intelligence (That is what I know about the creator. Note that there is no duality or choices here, there is only absolute and infinity to it.)
If you look around you at God?s creation, and ask yourself what does God?s creation tells you about God? Everything you see or touch is made up of only two things, energy and information (Even DNA), the tree, is made up of these two basic things. And it is intelligence that is making the energy useful by organising random data. Intelligence is God?s glue to create form. God is the most intelligent and all knowing. These are the only truth that I could believe in about God. -
The creation of the Universe
Universe = God's knowledge intelligently formed the universe (Accessible knowledge)
Intelligence is everyway around you in this universe and the weird thing is we human are the only creature on earth that can understand it. So the question is why do are we intelligent? What kind of benefit can the universe get by having intelligent creature like us? What are we doing with this intelligence; I think if we answer these questions we would roughly know why God have created us. -
The creation of the Humans
Humans = Lack of knowledge (Created Fear then duality) + Intelligence (Ability to acquire and transform universal knowledge) + experience the known and unknown + soul (Guideness).
The experience we have in this life is based on our lack of knowledge which helped creating the fear duality and the probability,
When humans acquire knowledge they become
Humans= Knowledge + Intelligence =?The most important key words here are Knowledge, Intelligence, lack of knowledge, Fear, and Duality. We need to know the true meaning of each of them.
Let me know your thoughts
Bless
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