Good, Evil And The battle We Have To Win.

Jaxal

SaLaM Joe and openurmind

Which is why you cannot accept alternative views. My sentiments are with Tay

Joe why do expect anyone to accept anything other than what it is? You are assuming i refuse to accept an alternative view. Thats an assumption you should keep to yourself.

Openurmind, first of all, thanks for going through all that trouble to post these verses of God for me. But i am a bit confused. Did u misunderstand me? I am saying that there IS an entity called Iblees. These verses confirm that. Or maybe it is me who has completely missed what you were trying to point out. Evil and Iblees are two different things. Agree? One is a characterer and the other is an entity. I agree that a 'character', i.e evil, does not exist in a physical form. Its more of a mental condition. But Iblees, as the verses above show, does exist in a 'physical' form. I hope you understand.

TheNabi

Salaam Jaxal,

Joe why do expect anyone to accept anything other than what it is?

What it is to you is not what it is to me. Obviously what it is to you is also not what it is to others. I do not get your logic here.

You are assuming i refuse to accept an alternative view. Thats an assumption you should keep to yourself.

What I mean is that you do not even mind them. You're like, 'No, that's wrong' or 'Oh no, it's not like that' or 'No I do not think so it's not what it is'. I may not accept alternative views, but I do not go around saying, 'No you're wrong' all the time. Loosen up dude.

Joe

Jaxal

SaLaM Joe

'No, that's wrong' or 'Oh no, it's not like that' or 'No I do not think so it's not what it is'

rotfl I really sound like that??? rotfl . I have to say this, i DONT ever mean to make it sound like that. Infact, im proud that we all have our own beliefs and our own releationship with God. Really i am. Like Tay for example, Im completely ok with his belief. Its just that, i like to say it the way it is. Sorry if that comes across as arrogant.

Tay

Peace O,

first you need to learn the Orangeese. It is the only language an orange is willing to use.

Damnit! I wasted my money learning fruitian thinking they all spoke the same language oops

That is fine, but then again why do you think the mind/brain is not capable of coping with the knowledge the spirit has? And do not get confused between the mind and the ego...

OK, O, time out, hit the brakes, too much information. We need to slow down man! You're using a lot of jargon that slips between psychology, western philosophy, and eastern philosophy.

Please, let's just take this chat one step at a time because a lot of the stuff you've mentioned I agree with but we need to put these concepts in their proper order for the sake of maintaining one conversation.

Now here's my first question for you in the hope of understanding what you mean by the word "mind". Do you view the mind as the same thing as the brain? Please explain in detail and we'll take it from there.

Thanks,
Tay

openurmind

What you mean by the word "mind". Do you view the mind as the same thing as the brain? Please explain in detail and we'll take it from there.

Thanks,
Tay

well, I am not sure what the conventional terms, but I will tell you what I think. The brain is the substance, the physical matter that process and stores, it is the regulator that helps all organs to function as it is the primary part of the nervous system. The mind is the whole thing including the thinking, the process of sorting and analysing, and perception. If you are inspired for example, I believe it is the mind that receives the ideas, and the brain is the hardware the mind uses to process the new idea. Some people use the word brain to mean the mind or the other way around, however, when it comes to the consciousness, we should not refer to the brain, unless you decide that both are just one thing. The ego is the character that is formed from your personal experience. It is neither the mind nor the brain.

God belss

Tay

Peace O,

OK, I agree with everything you've said except...

The ego is the character that is formed from your personal experience. It is neither the mind nor the brain.

If the ego is not a product of the mind, what is it a product of?

openurmind

Peace O,

OK, I agree with everything you've said except...

The ego is the character that is formed from your personal experience. It is neither the mind nor the brain.

If the ego is not a product of the mind, what is it a product of?
Well, I did not mean to say it is not a product of the mind, I meant it is not the mind itself. Some people refer to the ego as if is the totality of your mind, I do not agree with that.

Tay

Peace O,

My apologies for the delay.

you stated

Well, I did not mean to say it is not a product of the mind, I meant it is not the mind itself. Some people refer to the ego as if is the totality of your mind, I do not agree with that.

Excellent. So we're in agreement with the understanding of mind, brain, and ego. Now on to the meat of the matter. I believe the soul/spirit is the part of us that is infinitely intertwined with all that is. It is our eternal self. It is the part of us that experiences without judgement - the observer of the mind, which includes observance of the ego, and of course, observance of the body.

Therefore, the illusory duality of man consists of soul and mind. The soul is the only real essence, while the mind is the lens through which the soul experiences life. All physical and mental processes take place via the mind, and all are observed by the soul.

Please tell me if you're with me so far, because I would be interested in your thoughts on a very imporatant question which these understandings beg to be asked.

Peace,
Tay

openurmind

Peace Tay,

I agree withevery word you said, and I wouldn't have put better than you did. Looking forwar to your question, and I have also some of own.

God bless

Tay

Okie Dokie O,

Here's the thing...if the soul is that which is interconnected with the Infinite, then the soul itself is not really developmental since this would imply a finite process. If the soul is not developmental, then nothing the soul observes via the mind can have an effect on the soul. The soul just is. Thus, the process of life takes on no meaning. Right?

unknownuser

Okie Dokie O,

Here's the thing...if the soul is that which is interconnected with the Infinite, then the soul itself is not really developmental since this would imply a finite process. If the soul is not developmental, then nothing the soul observes via the mind can have an effect on the soul. The soul just is. Thus, the process of life takes on no meaning. Right?

If we think of Soul as in a process of infinite contemplation of itself then there is meaning to life perhaps?

Just my two cents worth of thoughts... -)

Regards,

Tay

Interesting LoteTree. I now recall brother Kyle's mention a while back that we are a tool for the God to experience, which I was adamantly against. Now I'm not so sure.

Kyle, if you're listening, could you elaborate?

Peace,
Tay

unknownuser

Interesting LoteTree. I now recall brother Kyle's mention a while back that we are a tool for the God to experience, which I was adamantly against. Now I'm not so sure.

Kyle, if you're listening, could you elaborate?

Peace,
Tay

Hello Tay,

Do you think contemplation is same as experience?

Regards,

Tay

Peace Lote,

I don't think they are the same, but mutually dependant.

unknownuser

Peace Lote,

I don't think they are the same, but mutually dependant.

In that case Tay, then Soul is in contemplation of the totality of all experiences?

Regards,

openurmind

Okie Dokie O,

Here's the thing...if the soul is that which is interconnected with the Infinite, then the soul itself is not really developmental since this would imply a finite process. If the soul is not developmental, then nothing the soul observes via the mind can have an effect on the soul. The soul just is. Thus, the process of life takes on no meaning. Right?

Peace Tay,

I was thinking the same way like LoteTree, if what you are saying is true, then how could we fit experience, self realisation, and the purpose of life. The only way out is to think if infinite as ever expanding, continuously creating itself. One time I thought of it as the heart beats that continuously confirm that a creature is alive. The infinite absolute has all knowledge, yet the experience we have in this life is unique and could not be experienced by an absolute infinite God. That does not mean that the infinite lacks what we experience if we are part of that infinite and we are one. We are this part of him that allows him to experience his own truth. As I told you before do not underestimate the mind. I know it is the reason we have an ego and you think it is also behind the illusion, it is finite. But one thing you should consider, what is the mind got hold of the absolute knowledge?

That takes me back to how I always looked at it.

God,
the universe,
and humans.
The beginning God= Knowledge + Intelligence (That is what I know about the creator. Note that there is no duality or choices here, there is only absolute and infinity to it.)
If you look around you at God?s creation, and ask yourself what does God?s creation tells you about God? Everything you see or touch is made up of only two things, energy and information (Even DNA), the tree, is made up of these two basic things. And it is intelligence that is making the energy useful by organising random data. Intelligence is God?s glue to create form. God is the most intelligent and all knowing. These are the only truth that I could believe in about God.
The creation of the Universe
Universe = God's knowledge intelligently formed the universe (Accessible knowledge)
Intelligence is everyway around you in this universe and the weird thing is we human are the only creature on earth that can understand it. So the question is why do are we intelligent? What kind of benefit can the universe get by having intelligent creature like us? What are we doing with this intelligence; I think if we answer these questions we would roughly know why God have created us.
The creation of the Humans
Humans = Lack of knowledge (Created Fear then duality) + Intelligence (Ability to acquire and transform universal knowledge) + experience the known and unknown + soul (Guideness).
The experience we have in this life is based on our lack of knowledge which helped creating the fear duality and the probability,

When humans acquire knowledge they become
Humans= Knowledge + Intelligence =?

The most important key words here are Knowledge, Intelligence, lack of knowledge, Fear, and Duality. We need to know the true meaning of each of them.

Let me know your thoughts

Bless

Tay

Peace Lote Tree, O,

I needed some time to ponder and not think before responding so please forgive the delay...

LoteTree, you stated

then Soul is in contemplation of the totality of all experiences

Is it, though? Does the soul ever contemplate, or does the mind contemplate. My understanding is that the soul only observes, in peace. Once contemplation comes into play, we've left the realm of the soul and handed the reigns back to the mind.

OpenUrMind, you stated

if what you are saying is true, then how could we fit experience, self realisation, and the purpose of life.

Exactly! That's where I'm stuck.

The only way out is to think if infinite as ever expanding, continuously creating itself. One time I thought of it as the heart beats that continuously confirm that a creature is alive.

OK, I can imagine this, but with this understanding, we've left no room for individuality. We are One, or we are many. We can't be both. Or can we?

The infinite absolute has all knowledge, yet the experience we have in this life is unique and could not be experienced by an absolute infinite God.

I don't mean to be difficult, O, because I understand you after your additional articulation, but at face value, this sentence is logically flawed in the sense that the terms "infinite" and "articulate", by definition, are all-encompassing, and hence, leave no room for something unique and outside of their respective realms.

That does not mean that the infinite lacks what we experience if we are part of that infinite and we are one. We are this part of him that allows him to experience his own truth.

This I understand as stated above.

As I told you before do not underestimate the mind. I know it is the reason we have an ego and you think it is also behind the illusion, it is finite.

But it is finite, O. Here's a perfect example You can explain infinity, but can you imagine it? Can you picture something that goes on forever? Try it and see what happens. The mind forces an end to the infinite. There "has" to be an end, according to the mind's understanding, because the mind itself is finite.

But one thing you should consider, what is the mind got hold of the absolute knowledge?

Please rephrase the question. I don't understand what you mean here.

I'd like to keep the focus at this point, if you don't mind, since the rest of your post introduces new terms that we should agree on, such as intelligence and knowledge and the difference between them.

Peace,
Tay

openurmind

Peace Tay,

openurmind, you stated

The only way out is to think if infinite as ever expanding, continuously creating itself. One time I thought of it as the heart beats that continuously confirm that a creature is alive.

OK, I can imagine this, but with this understanding, we've left no room for individuality. We are One, or we are many. We can't be both. Or can we?

I am not sure if I understand what you mean by having no room for individuality, why not. Individuality is the illusion we have when we think we are not one with everything. So, behind this realm, there is no individuality, there is only oneness, which is never ending expanding infinity. While here now, the mind creates its own world.

The infinite absolute has all knowledge, yet the experience we have in this life is unique and could not be experienced by an absolute infinite God.

I don't mean to be difficult, O, because I understand you after your additional articulation, but at face value, this sentence is logically flawed in the sense that the terms "infinite" and "articulate", by definition, are all-encompassing, and hence, leave no room for something unique and outside of their respective realms.

I knew after I wrote it that you were going to think that way. Then I added the next sentence to explain that it is not really unique since we are part of the God.

As I told you before do not underestimate the mind. I know it is the reason we have an ego and you think it is also behind the illusion, it is finite.

But it is finite, O. Here's a perfect example You can explain infinity, but can you imagine it? Can you picture something that goes on forever? Try it and see what happens. The mind forces an end to the infinite. There "has" to be an end, according to the mind's understanding, because the mind itself is finite.

You are right, I can not imagine it now, but that should not by definition mean that the mind would never reach a stage where it is capable of such imagination. My next question was meant to explain that.

But one thing you should consider, what is the mind got hold of the absolute knowledge?

Please rephrase the question. I don't understand what you mean here.

But one thing you should consider, what if the mind got hold of the absolute knowledge? A typing mistake, Replace the ?is? with ?if?.

I'd like to keep the focus at this point, if you don't mind, since the rest of your post introduces new terms that we should agree on, such as intelligence and knowledge and the difference between them.

Peace,
Tay

I agree.
God bless

Tay

Peace O,

Individuality is the illusion we have when we think we are not one with everything. So, behind this realm, there is no individuality, there is only oneness, which is never ending expanding infinity. While here now, the mind creates its own world.

I agree with this understanding. I guess my point is, what is the point of guidance? Why would God inspire individuals throughout history to teach their fellow man about God and God's path, if we are already connected to God? Furthermore, the mind being finite, is the part of man that is doing the teaching and the learning, yet in the long run, this teaching and learning will wither away with the mind, leaving the same eternal soul that existed before the mind.

Seems kinda pointless, doesn't it?

Peace,
Tay

openurmind

I agree with this understanding. I guess my point is, what is the point of guidance?

I never believed that it is about guidance, in fact I do not believe that God has contacted us through a religion or sent us any prophets. I believe it is about what is exactly happening, namely, everything, all probability and the infinity to it. It is in this process that allows the existence of infinite probability lies the answer to what you are looking for. And as the mind develops, it allows for more and more probability, let alone that the mind itself could be existing in multiple dimensions.

Why would God inspire individuals throughout history to teach their fellow man about God and God's path, if we are already connected to God? Furthermore, the mind being finite, is the part of man that is doing the teaching and the learning, yet in the long run, this teaching and learning will wither away with the mind, leaving the same eternal soul that existed before the mind.
Seems kinda pointless, doesn't it?

Please do not get stuck there, you know it could not be pointless; it is only our lack of knowledge which is leading us to that conclusion. But it could not be pointless. If we agree that I could not be pointless, then we could move on to try to figure out what is it that we do not understand. You are basing your assumption on the understanding that the soul does not require the experience we have in this life since it is infinite. What about if one the reasons why the soul is infinite, is because it is able to experience, though the mind, all probability? Why infinite has to separate from what is not infinite? I think the secret lies in the obvious fact that we are born without mental knowledge, and we are only allowed to gain knowledge gradually, no matter how hard we try, we are only allowed to go one step at a time. This life is here for a reason that could not be pointless.

God bless