DO AYATS 5:5 AND 6:146, PRECLUDE THE PIG AS BEING HARAM...?
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PEACE, SWEDEN M.,
All praises due to Allah. It is really good to see you continue to step away from superstition/foolishness. It is pointless to arue with Jaxal, because he is of set mind and purpose to be of those who go astray, masha-Allah.
Peace.
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Dear Jaxal,
The reason pork is forbidden coz pig is a filthy animal. Eats its own poo and doesnt mind eating other garbage. Would you eat an animal that eats its own crap?
Maybe God was in a bad mood when the pig was created? lol
Anyway, I do not intend to eat what the pig eats ? so I am puzzled that you bring that up, but I wonder, does it make the flesh of the pig unhealthy or bad in any way?
Why on earth can?t you stick to the matter in question? So far, I haven?t gotten any wiser from your comments. You keep on repeating that pigs flesh is forbidden because it?s foul. brickwall And I still understand that hundreds of millions of people live happily eating pork.
So, what?s wrong with it?
I refuse to accept that God rolled dice and the pig came up as forbidden. mrgreen So I believe there must be a reason, or God mentions something else and not the pig.As I still can not find anything wrong with the pig as such, and going through what I have found of discussions on the subject, I am inclined to think that the pig is ?innocent?.
However, the pork-ban is so deep rooted in me that I probably won?t eat it anyway. So far I haven?t missed it.
I have never been overly concerned whether products have been stamped ?halal? or not, as I see this marking as a money-making-machine for the ?holy? people.
Therefore nothing much will change for me, one way or another, but I would still like to know.If you, or anyone, can come up with a proof, i.e. that pig?s meat is foul, I will follow that. Otherwise I understand it the way Priest_BokMei does.
Regds
Ali Omar
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SaLaM Ali
Maybe God was in a bad mood when the pig was created?
Or maybe God was in a bad mode when he created pedophiles. Or Maybe God was in a bad mode when he created murderes.
And I still understand that hundreds of millions of people live happily eating pork.
And hundreds of millions of people smoke and still live. Is smoking healthy?
I refuse to accept that God rolled dice and the pig came up as forbidden.
No. pork is forbidden by God in all His scriptures becoz its unclean.
If you, or anyone, can come up with a proof, i.e. that pig?s meat is foul, I will follow that
Ok brother, here is the shocker. Ready? Here it comes...
Pig eats both its own crap and human crap. A simple google search will shock you with the results. Now, all that crap is not going to cuculand. ITs going in its flesh. A simple course in the biology of digestion will prove that. It shouldnt be THAT mind boggling why pork is forbidden from God in all His scriptures.
So there you have it. pig is an animal which will eat not only its own crap but crap from humans too. So anything said to eat pork is an excuse. Just like there is an excuse to drink alcohol. Or to have sex outside marriage. Or to smoke weed and snort coke. And you dont HAVE to understand it my way http//www.geocities.com/bigjaxal/s1.gif
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Hundreds of millions eat pork, why doesn?t, at least a few, get sick and/or die from it, if it is unhealthy?
Your question is as silly as Priest's argument but now when you have asked it
Trichinellosis became a nationally reportable disease in 1966 in USA
Trichinellosis has a broad clinical presentation, ranging from asymptomatic to fatal. Initial symptoms of abdominal pain, vomiting, diarrhea, constipation, and low-grade fever might occur within 1 week of ingestion of infected meat, as the larvae invade the bowel wall. These symptoms might be followed in approximately 1--8 weeks by facial edema, peripheral edema, headaches, intermittent fever, conjunctivitis, rashes, pruritus, cough, myalgia, and eosinophilia, as the larvae migrate through the tissues and encyst in the muscles (2,3). Fatal cases might result from neurologic and myocardial complications (3).And one of the major cause for this disease is Pig.
During 1947--1951, a median of 393 cases (range 327--487) was reported annually, including 57 trichinellosis-related deaths
Another list of diseases and deaths related with pork can be given; but that is not the point other animals can cause similar diseases too.
Quran is very clear it says "laham al khanzeer" is prohibted
"Laham" is "Flesh" Khanzeer is "swine" in Arabic
In Hebrew it is "Khazeer" in aramanic it is "Khanzeer" all these languages are interelated, if any one has another translation for that he should bring it forward and back it with some evidences.Now if some one after these clear verses of Quran wants to have the pork; well there is no law in the world which can stop him/her go on enjoy.
Prohibited for you are animals that die of themselves, blood, the meat of pigs, and animals dedicated to other than GOD strangled, struck with an object, fallen from a height, gored, attacked by a wild animal - unless you save your animal before it dies - and animals sacrificed on altars. Also prohibited is dividing the meat through a game of chance; this is an abomination. Today, the disbelievers have given up concerning your religion; do not fear them and fear Me instead. Today, I have completed your religion, perfected My blessing upon you, and I have decreed Islam as the religion for you. If one is forced by famine (to eat prohibited food), without being deliberately sinful, then GOD is Forgiver, Merciful.
They consult you concerning what is lawful for them; say, "Lawful for you are all good things, including what trained dogs and falcons catch for you." You train them according to GOD's teachings. You may eat what they catch for you, and mention GOD's name thereupon. You shall observe GOD. GOD is most efficient in reckoning.Today, all good food is made lawful for you. The food of the people of the scripture is lawful for you, . Also, you may marry the chaste women among the believers, as well as the chaste women among the followers of previous scripture, provided you pay them their due dowries. You shall maintain chastity, not committing adultery, nor taking secret lovers. Anyone who rejects faith, all his work will be in vain, and in the Hereafter he will be with the losers.
You and the others continue to mistranslate khinzeerin, however, it doesn't matter,
It does matter what is your translation???
For those who are Jewish we prohibited animals with undivided hoofs; and of the cattle and sheep we prohibited the fat, except that which is carried on their backs, or in the viscera, or mixed with bones. That was a retribution for their transgressions, and we are truthful.
Ok; let us assume that Allah never prohibited Pork for Jews and accept your logic for a while that the translations of all the scholars are wrong.
Then it was past about Jews and the present is Quran the final revelation which is saying that from now the pig is prohibited for Jews as well for Muslims.
6145] Say, "I do not find in the revelations given to me any food that is prohibited for any eater except (1) carrion, (2) running blood, (3) the meat of pigs, for it is contaminated, and (4) the meat of animals blasphemously dedicated to other than GOD." If one is forced (to eat these), without being deliberate or malicious, then your Lord is Forgiver, Most Merciful.and if you still not believe
If they disbelieve you, then say, "Your Lord possesses infinite mercy, but His retribution is unavoidable for the guilty people."because ayats 55 and 6146, when taken together, completely destroy any such notion of the pig being haram. You have yet to refute the 55 and 6146 argument which proves the pig was never ahram to Jews or mankind
Now; here is the point where you are confused and trying to make others confusesd.
PIG was not Haraam for Jews before but from now on it is.
This is only if we follow your lame argument.But infact by your logic or by our logic Conclusion is the same SWINE is prohibited in QURAn! for what reason that is another deabte!
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PEACE, ALI OMAR,
I am inclined to think that the pig is ?innocent?...If you, or anyone, can come up with a proof, i.e. that pig?s meat is foul, I will follow that...However, the pork-ban is so deep rooted in me that I probably won?t eat it anyway. Therefore nothing much will change for me, one way or another, but I would still like to know.
I'm so glad that you made these comments, because it shows the power of jibt/superstition ( superstition to maintain a belief despite the evidence to the contrary.) The question is, given that Allah didn't make the pig haram, hence, as you so well put it, is innocent, why then, wouldn't you eat it? Not to eat it if the opportunity presented it self, is to not believe Allah, but others, hence, ibt/superstition...is shirk. I am not accusing you of shirk at all, Ali, I'm just remarking about how subtle it can it be at times. Looking forward to your thoughts.
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Ra-jah,
Hundreds of millions eat pork, why doesn?t, at least a few, get sick and/or die from it, if it is unhealthy?
Your question is as silly as Priest's argument but now when you have asked it
Trichinellosis became a nationally reportable disease in 1966 in USA
Trichinellosis has a broad clinical presentation, ranging from asymptomatic to fatal. Initial symptoms of abdominal pain, vomiting, diarrhea, constipation, and low-grade fever might occur within 1 week of ingestion of infected meat, as the larvae invade the bowel wall. These symptoms might be followed in approximately 1--8 weeks by facial edema, peripheral edema, headaches, intermittent fever, conjunctivitis, rashes, pruritus, cough, myalgia, and eosinophilia, as the larvae migrate through the tissues and encyst in the muscles (2,3). Fatal cases might result from neurologic and myocardial complications (3).And one of the major cause for this disease is Pig.
During 1947--1951, a median of 393 cases (range 327--487) was reported annually, including 57 trichinellosis-related deaths
Another list of diseases and deaths related with pork can be given; but that is not the point other animals can cause similar diseases too.
Is trichinellosis common in the United States?
Infection was once very common and usually caused by ingestion of undercooked pork. However, infection is now relatively rare. During 1997-2001, an average of 12 cases per year were reported. The number of cases has decreased because of legislation prohibiting the feeding of raw-meat garbage to hogs, commercial and home freezing of pork, and the public awareness of the danger of eating raw or undercooked pork products. Cases are less commonly associated with pork products and more often associated with eating raw or undercooked wild game meats.
http//www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dpd/parasites/trichinosis/factsht_trichinosis.htm#how_spread
Poof! there goes your silly argument.
Quran is very clear it says "laham al khanzeer" is prohibted "Laham" is "Flesh" Khanzeer is "swine" in Arabic. In Hebrew it is "Khazeer" in aramanic it is "Khanzeer" all these languages are interelated, if any one has another translation for that he should bring it forward and back it with some evidences. Now if some one after these clear verses of Quran wants to have the pork; well there is no law in the world which can stop him/her go on enjoy.
Khinzeerin, is defined as both pig and what is seen as ill-seeming/bad. The question which arises is...which definition does Allah use? Your defining khinzeerin as pig, vis a vis 55 and 6146, cannot be Quranically rationalized.
Ok; let us assume that Allah never prohibited Pork for Jews and accept your logic for a while that the translations of all the scholars are wrong. Then it was past about Jews and the present is Quran the final revelation which is saying that from now the pig is prohibited for Jews as well for Muslims. Now; here is the point where you are confused and trying to make others confusesd. PIG was not Haraam for Jews before but from now on it is. This is only if we follow your lame argument.
Thank you! you've made my point. Given that, the pig was never haram for the Jews, when ayat 55 is being revealed it had to have been lawful, thus, making it lawful for the Muslim as well; there is simply no denying this glaring fact, otherwise, a contradiction occurs between 53 and 55
53 Forbidden to you is that which dies of itself, and blood, and flesh of swine...
55 This day (all) the good things are allowed to you; and the food of those who have been given the Book is lawful for you and your food is lawful for them...
The question that arises now is, given that the pig was not haram for the Jews, on what basis then, are you claiming that Allah made it haram?
But infact by your logic or by our logic Conclusion is the same SWINE is prohibited in QURAn! for what reason that is another deabte!
Another debate?! LOL!! what, are you kidding?! this is the debate and you haven't remotely made a case that khinzeerin means pig. You have not overcome ayats 55 and 6146 and, you've had to admit that, Allah, per His Quran...did not make the pig haram to the Jews. So, what is your Quranic basis for why Allah made the pig haram to mankind with the coming of Al-Quran and not prior to the coming of Al-Quran? Please, no conjectures, speculations, notions, or opinions, just the Quranic FACT, thanks.
Now, for you and others to continue to translate khinzeerin as pig, in light of the 55 and 6146, is simply profound denial and superstiton.
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SaLaM Ali
Hundreds of millions eat pork, why doesn?t, at least a few, get sick and/or die from it, if it is unhealthy?
So while God is saying its unclean and dont eat it, you are stuck on how many deaths it has been responsible for?
Khinzeerin, is defined as both pig and what is seen as ill-seeming/bad.
Suddenly??? Wow PB looks like God is opening ur eyes Loooooolllll
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Peace Raj-ah,
Hundreds of millions eat pork, why doesn?t, at least a few, get sick and/or die from it, if it is unhealthy?
Your question is as silly as Priest's argument but now when you have asked it
Trichinellosis...Take the case of Spain, my country. We are around 45 millions of Spaniards. The vast majority of us eat pork several times a week. We do, our parents do, and our grand-parents do/did. I won't say the previous generations did because I didn't see them.
Personally I find revolting to eat animals, and especially cured ham that sometimes presents some white dots that people say they are salt and others say they are in the slices of ham because of the acorns the pigs were fed with. But for me they are simply worms cut into slices, therefore the "dots" look (my view, totally denied by other Spanish people, you can imagine)
But all of my personal likes and dislikes can't deny that Spaniards eat pork almost in a daily basis and still there are Spaniards on the earth surface, and quite healthy people they are.
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Same in the US. I know people who eat the pig in every meal. Pig for breakfast (what's breakfast without bacon/ham roll ). Pig for snack (pork rinds, pickled pig's feet). Pig for BBQ (no BBQ restaurant that doesn't serve baby back ribs). The list goes on... roll Personally, I don't touch the stuff... How can you beat chicken?... or a thick juicy steak! http//www.free-minds.org/forum/images/smiles/food.gif
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SaLaM Elena and zenje
Regardless weather people die or live or mutate into aliens. The fact remains that pigs are animals who are associated with eating feaces. Hence God has forbidden pork becoz its a filthy animal.
How can you beat chicken?... or a thick juicy steak!
Inded
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Salaam,
I do enjoy ribs. Sometimes I will have a hero with ham, but my usual is with turkey. I have not eaten ham bacon and I do not like pork sausages . Chicken and steak is good too. Lots of good food out there. Alot I've not eaten but I'm willing to try.
Joe
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Hi,
Trichinellosis, also called trichinosis, is caused by eating raw or undercooked meat of animals infected with the larvae of nematodes (roundworms) of the genus Trichinella. Infection occurs commonly in certain wild carnivorous (meat-eating) animals but may also occur in domestic pigs.
In addition to the classical agent T. spiralis (found worldwide in many carnivorous and omnivorous animals), several other species of Trichinella are now recognized, including T. pseudospiralis (mammals and birds worldwide), T. nativa (Arctic bears, Walrus), T. nelsoni (African predators and scavengers), and T. britovi (carnivores of Europe and western Asia).Rats and rodents are primarily responsible for maintaining the endemicity of this infection, so why not getting it directly from one of the main sources?
BEIJING (AFP) ?A restaurant in southern China's Guangdong province is doing a brisk business in rat dishes.?
Symptoms are nausea, diarrhea, vomiting, fatigue, fever, and abdominal discomfort are the first symptoms of trichinellosis. Headaches, fevers, chills, cough, eye swelling, aching joints and muscle pains, itchy skin, diarrhea, or constipation follow the first symptoms. If the infection is heavy, patients may experience difficulty coordinating movements, and have heart and breathing problems. In severe cases, death can occur.
For mild to moderate infections, most symptoms subside within a few months. Fatigue, weakness, and diarrhea may last for months.
During 1997?2001, a total of 72 cases of trichinellosis (median 12 cases annually; range 11?23 cases) were reported to the CDC (US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention). The majority of these infections came from eating wild game, predominately bear. Wild game meat is becoming progressively more popular and those who prefer to consume not fully cooked meat are at increased risk of infection with trichinella. The CDC advises everyone to cook all meats, particularly wild game, to an internal temperature of 160? F (71? C).
Well, maybe Allah didn?t know about this? Pigs don?t even seem to be the main source for this disease.
A report published by the U.S. Department of Agriculture's Economic Research Service states "Microbial pathogens in food cause between 6.5 million and 33 million cases of human illness and up to 9,000 deaths each year in the United States. Over 40 different foodborne pathogens are believed to cause human illness. The annual cost of human illness caused by seven foodborne pathogens for which we have estimates ranges between $5.6 billion and $9.4 billion. Meat and poultry are the primary sources."
The report states that "Foods most likely to carry pathogens are high-protein, nonacid foods, such as meat, poultry, seafood, dairy products, and eggs. . . . Farm livestock and poultry infected with microbial pathogens may expose other animals in a herd or flock by excreting pathogens, pathogen cysts, or larvae."11
Of the foodborne illnesses that are confirmed and reported to the CDC, over 90 percent are attributed to bacteria.12 Nine major foodborne pathogens cause human illness in the United States, including eight bacteria and one parasite Campylobacter jejuni, Clostridium perfringens, Escherichia coli 0157H7, Listeria monocytogenes, Salmonella, Staphylococcus aureus, Shigella, Yersinia, and Toxoplasma gondii (the parasite). Poultry is specifically identified as a major source of Campylobacter jejuni or coli, Salmonella, Shigella, Yersinia, and Staphylococcus aureus. Chicken and turkey gravies are specifically identified, along with meat, meat stews, meat pies, and beef, as a major source of Clostridium perfringens.13
Ouch! What?s left?
So, stop eating or turn vegetarian, maybe even vegan, and save yourself from all these illnesses. Maybe the Hindus and Buddhists are on to something here, although some of them also eat meat?Strange, 72 reported cases of illness from eating carnivorous animals, mostly wild animals like bear (and because the meat was raw or undercooked), and 6.5 to 33 million cases of human illnesses with up to 9,000 deaths each year from eating, especially chicken and turkey. And also beef is a culprit.
Wouldn?t it make more sense to forbid chicken and turkey, then, or maybe meat in general? This seems to be some 100,000 times more dangerous to us.
I must say I begin to feel, very strongly, that the pig is comparatively innocent. The argument that pork is forbidden because it is foul doesn?t seem to hold water.
On the contrary, pork seems to be much healthier than chicken, turkey, beef etc.Anyway, the pig is not any worse than other living creatures.
So now ?God save the pig?.Regds
Ali Omar
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SaLaM Ali
The argument that pork is forbidden because it is foul doesn?t seem to hold
Say "I do not find in what is inspired to me forbidden except that it be already dead, or blood, or the meat of pig, for it is foul; or what is corruptly dedicated to other than God." Whoever is forced without seeking disobedience or transgression, then your Lord is Forgiving, Merciful.
You are more knowledgable than God?
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Dear Jaxal,
No I do not claim to be more knowledgeable than God, but I do know how to read simple English, and I am able to compare information, at least to some extent. ?
As far as I know, God has not translated 6.145 into English, or am I mistaken? shock
Regds
Ali Omar
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SaLaM Ali
As far as I know, God has not translated 6.145 into English, or am I mistaken?
I see. So if the verse was translated into anything BUT english, it wouldnt say that meat of the pig is foul? English translation or not, i will point out to you clearly where the "meat of pig, for it is foul" is in the aramaic.
Say "I do not find in what is inspired to me forbidden except that it be already dead, or blood, or the meat of pig, for it is foul; or what is corruptly dedicated to other than God." Whoever is forced without seeking disobedience or transgression, then your Lord is Forgiving, Merciful.
Qul la ajidu feema oohiya ilayya muharraman AAala taAAimin yatAAamuhu illa an yakoona maytatan aw daman masfoohan aw lahma khinzeerin fa-innahu rijsun aw fisqan ohilla lighayri Allahi bihi famani idturra ghayra baghin wala AAadin fa-inna rabbaka ghafoorun raheemun.
Do you think God made a mistake and you and PB are the ones correcting God? Like RK correcting the Quran? Or is it that you are more knowledgable than God? Tell me bro, what is the secret?
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PEACE, ALI OMAR,
Jaxal wrote I see. So if the verse was translated into anything BUT english, it wouldnt say that meat of the pig is foul? English translation or not, i will point out to you clearly where the "meat of pig, for it is foul" is in the aramaic. Do you think God made a mistake and you and PB are the ones correcting God? Like RK correcting the Quran? Or is it that you are more knowledgable than God? Tell me bro, what is the secret?
Jaxal, continues to ignore the following Quranic facts
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The Torah is not mankinds book of guidance, Al-Quran is.
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Allah, per His Quran, ayat 6146, informs us that, He only made haram to the Jews the species of animals with claws. Now, as pigs don't have claws, they could not have been one of the haram species of animals.
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If the pig is rijsun/foul, why then, did Allah allow the righteous people to eat it before the advent of Al-Quran? Even if one believes that the Torah forbade eating it, why did Allah allow Abraham and the righteous with him and before the advent of the Torah to eat it?
Peace.
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Dear Jaxal,
Repeat this a few more times, maybe it becomes the final truth. ?
You seem to have a sick pig, whereas mine is getting healthier and healthier. lol
Maybe you should care more for it, and for the words of God?There is no secret actually, just that some people are using their minds to think and some are using their minds to read lips.
Regds
Ali Omar
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Dear PRIEST_BOKMEI,
From what I?ve seen so far, dear Jaxal not only ignore the facts you mentioned, he ignores facts, full stop. ?
I will not waste my time on endless repetitions.
It?s another matter if new thoughts, or evidence, come into the picture.
For now the pig is off the sick list.Regds
Ali Omar
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PEACE, ALI OMAR,
Dear PRIEST_BOKMEI,
From what I?ve seen so far, dear Jaxal not only ignore the facts you mentioned, he ignores facts, full stop. ?
I will not waste my time on endless repetitions.
It?s another matter if new thoughts, or evidence, come into the picture.
For now the pig is off the sick list.Regds
Ali Omar
All praises due to Allah. It is heartening to see people distance themselves, as you have done in this matter, from superstition and disbelief.
Peace to you.