Abraham, the Arabs the House and Hajj
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Salaam all.
I was browsing through older threads regarding "Arab Conspiracies", Salaat, and Hajj and other hotly debated issues. And there seems to be a lack of knowledge in regards to Abraham.
Some people are claiming that how could it have been Abraham and Ishmael that built the Ka'aba or Baytu'LLAH in Arabia if the Qur'an specifically says that no warner/prophet/messenger was ever sent to the Arabs. The question itself is flawed as history is being ignored as described by the Qur'an.
1437 Abraham tells God where he left his offspring, in a valley, by God's sacred house. (FM.org 1440)
Obviously, as per God's command, Abraham left Haggar and Ishmael in the wilderness. Hence, there was no Makkah/Bakkah at the time. There were no Arabs per se either. Abraham himself was Babylonian originally if you all recall. The Arabs are said to be descendants of Ishamel. The reason they are called "ARABS" is due to the Hebrew word "ARAVA" which means WILDERNESS or DESERT.
And we are told how Abraham and Ishmael eventually REBUILT, and did NOT BUILD the Bayt.
2125 "And when We made the House a place of resort for mankind and a place of safety. And take the Maq?m (place/station) of Ibr?him as a place of Salaat. And We commanded Ibr?him and Ism?'il "You shall purify My House for those who visit, those who are devoted, and for those who kneel and prostrate."
2226 And when We showed Ibr?him the site of the House "Associate not anything with Me, (L? il?ha ill-All?h), and sanctify My House for those who circumambulate it, and those who stand up for Salaat, and those who bow, and make prostration" (Al-Hajj 2226)
So the House was already there. The spot at least was already picked out. Who built it before? Dunno, it doesn't say. Conjecture would want us to think that perhaps Adam built it as the first House dedicated to the ONE GOD. Since that spot, near Bakkah (which is its name in the Old Testament too, the Biblical "valley of Baca" in Psalm 84) is where the first House was put up.
396 The first sanctuary established for the people is the one in Bakkah, blessed, and a guidance for the worlds.
Now that this is settled, unleash your interpretive fury on me
As for the Hajj. I've read alot of claims on here that the ritual is pagan in origin and has no basis in the Qur'an. Have you guys even read the Qur'an???
2158 Verily! As-Saf? and Al-Marwah (two mountains in Makkah) are of the Symbols of All?h. So it is not a sin on him who perform Hajj or 'Umrahof the House to perform the going between them . And whoever does good voluntarily, then verily, All?h is All-Recogniser, All-Knower.
People who are disregarding the Hajj, do so by claiming there are no specific instructions on how to perform it. Or they just redefine the word to mean a grand debate/meeting of sorts.
But then what is "Manasik" referring to in 2200?
The 22nd Surah "Hajj" i think by itself should put down some doubts. I know there's plenty threads about this but most are 18months old so let's start anew or put me in the write category. Anyhoot!
2226 And call out to mankind with the Pilgrimage, they will come to you walking and on every transport, they will come from every deep enclosure.
2227 So that they may witness benefits for themselves and recall God's name in the appointed days over what He has provided for them of the animal livestock. So eat from it and feed the needy and the poor.
2228 Then let them complete their duties and fulfill their vows, and let them partake at the ancient sanctuary.
2229 Thus, and whosoever honours God's restrictions, then it is better for him with His Lord. And the livestock is made lawful for you except what is recited upon you. So avoid the foulness of idols and avoid saying false statements.
2230 Monotheists to God, not setting up anything with Him. And whosoever sets-up partners with God, then it is as if he has fallen from the sky and the birds snatch him or the wind takes him to a place far off.
2231 Thus, and whoever honours the symbols of God, then it is from the piety of the hearts.
2232 In them are benefits to an appointed time, then their place is to the ancient sanctuary.
2233 And for every nation We have made a rite that they may mention God's name over what He has provided for them of the animal livestock. So your god is One god, so to Him surrender and give good tidings to those who obey.We clearly see here that Hajj is a specific duty "proclaimed" to mankind. There are "appointed" days during this Hajj and Manasik or "stops" as mentioned in 2200.
Also
2196 And complete the Pilgrimage and the visit for God. But, if you are prevented, then make what is affordable of donation, and do not shave your heads until the donation reaches its destination; but whoever of you is ill or has an affliction to his head, then he may redeem by fasting or giving a charity or a sacrifice. But if you are able, then whoever continues the visit until the Pilgrimage, then he shall provide what is affordable of donation; but for he who cannot find anything, then he must fast for three days during the Pilgrimage and seven when he returns; this will make a complete ten; this is for those whose family is not present at the Restricted Temple. And be aware of God, and know that God is severe in retribution.
2197 The Pilgrimage is in the months which have been appointed. So whosoever decides to perform the Pilgrimage in them, then there shall be no sexual approach, nor vileness, nor baseless argument in the Pilgrimage. And any good that you do, God is aware of it; and bring provisions for yourselves, though the best provision is righteousness; and be aware of Me O people of understanding.
So CLEARLY, we are talking about a specific place where we are asked to a specific task according to a specific schedule for our own benefit and as a sign of commitment to God. Not because He needs it from us. If some still maintain that it is a remnant of Arab pagan religion, or that the Ka'aba is a pagan structure... I fear you're missing the whole point in your quest to reinterpret everything and that makes me uncomfortable because i've had doubt seeded in my head for the last few days. Not cool people! |
Yes. In the end the best thing is righteousness, but that's the bare minimum. There is a structured set of things we're asked to do, just as the Qur'an said, every nation was given a set of rules/rituals to follow.
Did it even enter anyone's mind that the first belief system on Earth was monotheist and for God alone, and through time got perverted and hence the rituals along with it. And that would explain why pagans practicied rituals that were "renewed" and "cleansed" of their idolatrous nature by each subsequent Messenger and Warner?
Your thoughts/feedback are always welcome brothers and sisters!
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peace mo,
Hence, there was no Makkah/Bakkah at the time.
Ok, so lets say there was no "bakkah" at the time Abraham was there. That means its name came later. al-quran refers to "bakkah" , so clearly, the name must have been established/known during al-quran's time. Fine, but al-quran also uses "Makkah" according to traditionalists in . According to traditionalists there is only a few years separating chapter 3's revelation and chapter 48's revelation. It doesn't really matter about how many years, but are you saying the name change took place within that period, even though its not documented anywhere? Please bring forth evidence. Some people say its the same place just a different way of saying it, fine, but where's the evidence? There is none.
As a side note, please note 396 states the bayt was built for mankind, not like it is today.
Your premise of "re-built" is flawed due to translation. Please be very specific and pick out exactly which word(s) of a sign/ayat you are using to show it was re-built.
there is no redefinition of the word HJJ, if you check its occurrences in al-quran and classical Arabic meanings, you will see it can mean debate. please use Project Root List for this www.studyquran.org
I dont understand your "manasik" point in 2200, are you saying this means debate? Please clarify.
2226 says call out to mankind WITH the HJJ. One cannot call out to mankind WITH a pilgrimmage. Clearly, HJJ involves a voice/call.
And as for specific place, I agree. In order to have a conference/debate, we need a centralised location, so everyone knows where to go. That doesn't necassarily mean it is ONLY one place in the entire world. It says the FIRST was at "bakkah", thus clearly implying there can be more. And 2436 proves this even further.
Please see the following articles
http//www.progod.org/pilgrimage.html
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3612Wakas
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SaLaM
Becoz quran doesnt give any details on Bakkah and Makkah, it is safe to assume that this is not important for the salvation of mankind. Just like how we pray is not mentioned as long as we pray.
Now, if people are interested in knowing why Bakkah and Makkah? Just like what colour beard the Prophet had, then there are a few explainations given neither of which effect the pilgrimage issue, where the House is and what to do with it.
1] Bakkah is old terminology and Makkah is the new one. (aramaic - arabic)
2] Bakkah is the province and Makkah is a city in this province.As a side note, please note 396 states the bayt was built for mankind, not like it is today.
It is not God's fault that the saudis are pigs. God didnt get it wrong, humans did.
And as for specific place, I agree. In order to have a conference/debate, we need a centralised location, so everyone knows where to go. That doesn't necassarily mean it is ONLY one place in the entire world. It says the FIRST was at "bakkah", thus clearly implying there can be more. And 2436 proves this even further.
The first shrine is THE shrine God is asking us to make the pilgrimage to.
The first Shrine established for the people is the one in Bakk'a, blessed, and a guidance for the worlds.
In it are clear signs, the station of Abraham, and whoever enters it will be secure. And God is owed from mankind to pilgrim to the Shrine, whoever can make a path to it. And whoever rejects, then God has no need of the worlds.
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Your premise of "re-built" is flawed due to translation. Please be very specific and pick out exactly which word(s) of a sign/ayat you are using to show it was re-built.
What translation. My mother tongue is Arabic. And just like in any language words can be twisted to mean anything if you look at simply the root and try to derive from it whicher form fits you better.
2227
And declare among the people using the Hajj. I dont see how the root of Hajj being a debate has anything to do with this. The root doesnt ALWAYS signify every single derivative of the root nor is a conjugason.
Iman's root is Aliph Mim Noon, which is SECURITY. How do you relate having belief with security? Yes we can see the link in feeling secure by believing in God. But its not a direct link in meaning just cause of the root.
You guys are doing the same thing as what im being accused of! The source cannot confirm itself. You use studyquran.org to find out root of words so that you can putting meaning to them. Yet where did you get the meaning of all the roots? Is it biased? Are you not changing the meaning to suit your needs instead of understanding the history behind it and the meaning that's always been associated to it? No no there must be an arab conspiracy against God's Path.
Either way, yes HJJ's root is debate. And what do you think people did for all those centuries when they'd come for Hajj anyway? Just the rituals prescribed? IF you think so, then you've all proven to me your complete and utter ignorance of Islamic and Arab history. The Hajj is what made the Muslim empires so powerful because of the constant communication and discussion and updating that was happening from all its corners. Debate and discussion was the order of the day, but isn't the MAIN MEANING of Hajj. And if so, how do you explain UMRAH? Whats the root of that? And what meaning you ascribe to it?
I dont understand your "manasik" point in 2200, are you saying this means debate? Please clarify.
Manasik. Why dont you tell me using your root definition? Manasik are the different stops you do on the way to complete the Hajj. You totally are disregarding the entire meaning of the Hajj and the purpose of each and every stop. Our religion is the religion of Abraham, everything we do commemorates him. He's the father of all prophets after him. He initiated the Hajj as per 2227
And as for specific place, I agree. In order to have a conference/debate, we need a centralised location, so everyone knows where to go. That doesn't necassarily mean it is ONLY one place in the entire world.
Ok so one day, after the prophet's death. A group of people waited until all those who were present with him passed away so as to initiate new rites at some new town way in the middle of the desert that has zero meaning to anyone in order to excercise polittical control or whatever.
Let me remind you that this isnt Judaism or Christianity, which have no clue as to their precise origins anymore. We're talking about an unbroken chain of people who performed these rites year after year since the time of the prophet.
But you know what. There is convincing me, and there's no convcing you. Lakum deenokum wa lya Deen. )
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peace mo,
My mother tongue is Arabic.
Excellent! My mother tongue is not Arabic, and my knowledge of it is basic. Will this make a difference? Well, we shall see. D
And just like in any language words can be twisted to mean anything if you look at simply the root and try to derive from it whicher form fits you better.
The root doesnt ALWAYS signify every single derivative of the root nor is a conjugason.
Iman's root is Aliph Mim Noon, which is SECURITY. How do you relate having belief with security? Yes we can see the link in feeling secure by believing in God. But its not a direct link in meaning just cause of the root.
You use studyquran.org to find out root of words so that you can putting meaning to them. Yet where did you get the meaning of all the roots? Is it biased? Are you not changing the meaning to suit your needs instead of understanding the history behind it and the meaning that's always been associated to it?
Instead of assuming, if you had actually bothered to read the preface to Project Root List (PRL) you would see ALL of your above points are addressed and dealt with. For example, please read "Which root meaning is correct?"
By the way, that preface has been there since PRL first began.And if so, how do you explain UMRAH? Whats the root of that? And what meaning you ascribe to it?
I dont understand why someone who's mother tongue is Arabic is asking me the root for umrah, but if you must know it is Ayn-Miim-Ra. From my understanding, it means to enliven, and in relation to al-HJJ it can mean to visit. This is different to someone actually participating in al-HJJ (the conference), i.e. debating for example. A visitor would be part of the audience for example.
The meanings and occurrences can be seen in PRL if you wish.
From my understanding, manasik means "observance". If you wish to see my translation of 2124-2128 please see the following thread
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2312Ok so one day, after the prophet's death. A group of people waited until all those who were present with him passed away so as to initiate new rites at some new town way in the middle of the desert that has zero meaning to anyone in order to excercise polittical control or whatever.
Yet another assumption. Where did I say a new location was made-up after prophet Muhammad?
Not everyone here believes in the same thing. When you read something, do not assume every member thinks the same thing. This is a simple point, please consider it.
There is convincing me, and there's no convcing you.
You made a quick assumption on me here. If this is how you feel, then clearly, as you said, to you your din, to me my din.
mo.mentum, you came here to discuss, as we all have. You came to this forum, read the content and rather than taking your time to digest and ponder you reacted with haste and emotion, assumed this and assumed that, and you were exposed.
Your thoughts/feedback are always welcome brothers and sisters!
You say that, but you never answered any of my points/questions which I made in response to your original post here. And not only here, but also in the thread below, where you conveniently dropped any comeback to my point and moved on
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4264Many people here, when they first read about rejection of traditional hadith and concepts based on al-quran alone. I'm sure they were filled with emotion, confused and felt they did not understand many things, but there is no progress without struggle. It is hard when you feel what you believed for so long is beginning to crumble and fall. I know, because I've been there.
I strongly recommend the following article, please read it
http//mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/think-786/Rethinking_Tradition_Modern_Islamic_Thought.htmWakas
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Salaam.
Really nice article, good summary. I have the book sitting on my shelf actually. I like this part
The hadith must be analysed not only by their transmission chain but also the content, many of the early hadith scholars neglected this aspect. The hadith must be understood in the light of the background and circumstances of the occurrence. Changable elements must be distinguished from permanent principles. Figurative meanings and literal meanings must be recognised. Apparent and hidden meanings must be recognised, and the meanings of the words themselves must be thoroughly understood. You must gather all the information the revelation, The Quran, then look at the hadith, and other hadith that discuss the same topic, then they should be rated on their degree of reliability, then rejected or not. Some hadith are only relevant for the time and should not be applied to shariah (Islamic Law) in the present time. These have to be distinguished, this has mainly not been done and not been applied today.
It should be remembered that the main aim of "traditionists" as well as "deniers" of hadith is to please God. The approaches differ, but they essentially have the same goal in the end
Ok. So what now?
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Ok so according to this view of Salaat. What would be the meaning of 3356?
All?h and His angels send their Salaat on the Prophet. O you who believe! Send your Salaat on him, and salute him with the best of salutation.
How should we understand the Salaat that God sends down on the prophet?
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Salaam mo.mentum,
Isn't this little too rude to sayAs for the Hajj. I've read alot of claims on here that the ritual is pagan in origin and has no basis in the Qur'an. Have you guys even read the Qur'an???
Nearly all members here are reading/studying Quran.
And who have said that Arabspeakers must know Quran better than the rest!?
My understanding is, if u want to know the truth and are willing to find it then God will guide u to it no matter what language u speak shock D
Peace
Sis Maria -
Momentun, can I just show you something here. About how you construct 'knowledge, ok?
MomentumI was browsing through older threads regarding "Arab Conspiracies", Salaat, and Hajj and other hotly debated issues. And there seems to be a lack of knowledge in regards to Abraham.
Lack of knowledge about Ibrahim, you say. Where ELSE can you gain knowledge about Ibrahim? Note that im not saying 'data' or 'information'. Knowledge is something verifiable.
You go on to say
Some people are claiming that how could it have been Abraham and Ishmael that built the Ka'aba or Baytu'LLAH in Arabia if the Qur'an specifically says that no warner/prophet/messenger was ever sent to the Arabs. The question itself is flawed as history is being ignored as described by the Qur'an.
Whose history are we talking about here? Is history a neutral, objective and verifiable entity?
You then explain 14/37
Obviously, as per God's command, Abraham left Haggar and Ishmael in the wilderness. Hence, there was no Makkah/Bakkah at the time. There were no Arabs per se either. Abraham himself was Babylonian originally if you all recall. The Arabs are said to be descendants of Ishamel. The reason they are called "ARABS" is due to the Hebrew word "ARAVA" which means WILDERNESS or DESERT.
How is this 'obvious' ? How did you come to term this information as knowledge?
This is my point. Much of what you hadithists claim simply have no basis in al-quraan. Would you not rather build your world-view according to it?
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peace mo,
Now that you have read the article, and you also have the book, you can verify what I wrote. Hopefully, you will see that I presented both sides, and am therefore open to healthy debate. I also hope you found the content of the article accurate. D
I liked the part you quoted. Apparently, some people are trying to review the traditional hadith in such a manner, see the following thread
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4056For an understanding of 3356, please read my article on "salat"
http//mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/think-786/slw.htmWakas
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peace mq,
Agreed.
It is a continual thing. One cannot establish it then forget about it. For al-mumineen it is a regular/timed thing.
the signs would include implementing al-quran in oneself, and consequently the community. Establishing the going/turning towards / bond, and in our case The God / al quran / al din. This would produce betterment for oneself, and others etc.Please forgive me if I am brief.
Wakas
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I think you just hit the nail on the head there, Wakas. Iqamus-salaat is to get into the state, but there'd be point without actually BEING in as-salaat later on.
What do you think of 35/18?
And don't worry about brevity. Some people here write oodles and oodles, but its all just poop. Brief but substantial, that's best.
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3518 perhaps suggests you can only warn those who establish the slw because they would be the ones active in this process, thus heed what it entails.
Good point. And notice the wording
Thou canst but admonish such as fear their Lord unseen and establish regular Prayer. And whoever purifies himself does so for the benefit of his own soul; and the destination.
Do you notice that 'those who fear thier lord bilghaib and establish as-salaat' does NOT go on to say 'and render az-zakaat' . Rather it says 'wa man yatazakka'. Why doesnt it say 'and render az-zakaat'. My opinion is, because khusyu to Allah bilghaib and iqamis salaat IS the rendering of az-zakaat. Your thoughts?
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well I do think to establish slw and atw zkw are related
my article on slw"]When one upholds/maintains (aqimu) the going/turning towards (link/bond) one is then in a position to 'bring forth / produce / show' (atawoo) the purification/betterment. Simple. The two terms reinforce and complement each other.
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Do you notice that 'those who fear thier lord bilghaib and establish as-salaat' does NOT go on to say 'and render az-zakaat' . Rather it says 'wa man yatazakka'. Why doesnt it say 'and render az-zakaat'. My opinion is, because khusyu to Allah bilghaib and iqamis salaat IS the rendering of az-zakaat. Your thoughts?
I just re-read this point today. Impressive.
