The Fast of Ramadan: The only one which is universal!
-
All this comes down to ONE thing ayman. Can you make us a proper calendar that everyone can follow based on the The Quran alone? Without all the man-made extras that have already been used? WIth the 12 full moons, plus the "uncounted" 13th? cough it up! I wanna live by God's Will, so reveal it.
Ah, the traditional way is so hard to shake off... always looking for some medium or other. roll -
Dude.. stop hiding behind calling others that disagree with your flawed interpretations as "traditional" or "secterian". For all you know, you're the misguided one and have been led to believe that you're personal whim is the only possible logical explanation. Sheesh.
-
Peace,
And stop anglicizing it. It's QUR'AN. And not THE READING. Wasn't there an epic of an article about how we should use the names Allah assigned to things?
The reading or recitation is an accurate translation.
We are communicating in English afterall - and all languages are equally intelligible to the God. You may call upon Him in any language and He will respond.
Remember that you must steer clear of associating anything with the God - and unfortunately it seems that in traditional Islam, Allah is an Arab god who understands only Arabic.
The God is free of all that people associate.
Regards.
-
Remember that you must steer clear of associating anything with the God - and unfortunately it seems that in traditional Islam, Allah is an Arab god who understands only Arabic.
shock
ooh right.. the arab conspiracy.. i forgot.. shake head
And among His Signs is the creation of the Heavens and the Earth, and the difference of your languages and colors. Verily, in that are Signs for people of sound knowledge.
(Q al-Rum 3022)You have it in your signature.
There's nothing holy or sacred about Arabic, and translating quran as 'reading' or 'recitation' is perfectly correct. There's no conspiracy - there's just too much ignorance amongst traditionalists to understand their errors.
Peace.
-
For all you know, you're the misguided one and have been led to believe that you're personal whim is the only possible logical explanation.
Perhaps. Isn't it a good thing I don't have to worry about being judged by you or any other human for that matter? wink -
Peace,
May God shows us His straight path in this striving that we are all engaged in. Ya qallabul qulub, thabbit qalbi 3ala dinika ya Rab.
The signs of The God are not only in the great reading, they are all around us. If you are sincere then you need to ponder on The God's signs and stop making the baseless argument that it is wrong to use for timing the natural solar cycle that The God created and clearly refers to in the great reading.
This is obviously leading nowhere because your whole argument is that i haven't read your article and your entire counter is to tell me "here's the link, go read the article", which i have.
You are either confused between articles or unable to read properly because you haven't addressed or argued against a single point from the article in the link. Instead, you keep arguing against the count of 365 days and the 19 year Metonic cycle, which are points never made in this article. Those points were made in another article that has major mistakes.
And found it riddled with holes and that is what I'm bringing to your attention.
You didn't bring a single one. I would appreciate it if you show me where there are holes in the article so that I can correct it. Instead of your empty boasting, please be specific and quote the appropriate passage from the article and tell everyone what is wrong with it.
What makes your view so authoratative anyway, that you so easily pretend to brush me off?
One can approach this from three points of views, (1) What the great reading tells us, (2) Scientific, and (3) Historical.
(1) From what the great reading tells us, we can clearly see that the year is solar. When shown 1712, at first you tried to make the baseless argument that "3am" is lunar and "sana" is solar or something like this. When you were proven wrong, you didn't admit your error and instead shifted to the hypocritical rhetorical argument that using the sun for timing is somehow "pagan".
You also made the following argument, which shows your poor knowledge of the Arabic language and more importantly your ineffective approach to understanding the great reading
Kaddara what? Kaddar al qamar! for what? lita3lamou 3adad as-sinin wal 7isab! The moon is clearly what is intended to set time periods, and through that to learn mathematics and counting. Al shamssou dhia2 and that's it! God didn't say "kaddarahUM", it's not plural. It strictly refers to the moon. So where's your sloppy reading? Oh right there!
To see your Arabic mistake, just read 106, which is the immediately next passage. Is "ayat liqawm ya3lamoon" a function of just the last part that came before it ("ma khalaq Allah fi alsamawat wa alard") or is it a function of everything that came before it ("ikhtilaf allay wa alnahar wa ma khalaq Allah fi alsamawat wa alard")? Of course, it is a function of everything that came before it NOT just the last part. Now apply the same logic to 105. Moreover, one has to effectively understand the great reading by looking at all the passages and not one in isolation. When 1712 and 105 are read TOGETHER we can clearly see the meaning of 105. Notice that 1712 talks about daylight and night and 105 talks about the light of the sun. Notice that immediately after 105 we hear in 106 about the daylight and the night like in 1712. So those two passages are connected and we must understand them in light of each other.
(2) Scientifically, at first you tried to make the baseless argument that "lunar calendars are better at specifying hunting restrictions". When you were again proven wrong, you didn't admit your error and instead made a false argument that the "restricted months were not about hunting". When shown 51-2, etc. and clearly proven wrong, you again didn't admit your mistake and again resorted to empty rhetoric. You can't be sincerely striving if you can't even admit such manifest errors. I don't think that your game of CIV4 will help you correct such errors.
(3) Historically, even traditionalist sectarians admit that the present day so-called Islamic calendar was invented during the time of Umar I and hence the prophet didn't use this calendar.
So as we can all see, the great reading, science, and history converge and support the understanding presented in the article and demolish your false arguments.
I wasn't alone in dissecting your article, not that you care. Good for you.
I hope that you would dissect it because so far you haven't. Many people have dissected it before, even before it was published on the site. This has helped me greatly and enabled me to improve it. Dissecting the article is a good thing and I do hope you start doing it. The first step is to read it and address specific issues by quoting the relevant passages from the article and telling us why they are wrong.
All this comes down to ONE thing ayman. Can you make us a proper calendar that everyone can follow based on the The Quran alone? Without all the man-made extras that have already been used? WIth the 12 full moons, plus the "uncounted" 13th? cough it up! I wanna live by God's Will, so reveal it.
The God gives us the scorching full-moon ("shahr ramadan") as the marker. This is the first full-moon after the summer solstice. It is also the first restricted full-moon. So you count four full moons starting with the scorching full-moon and you get the timing for the restriction. You count 12 full-moons until the next summer solstice and then you start over. If you get 13 full moons, you skip counting the 13th moon because we are told to only count 12 and this way you get automatic intercalation. It is the simplest and least error prone mechanism. This way, the lunar cycles and the solar cycles are used for timing as indicated in 1712 and 105. So you essentially have lunar "months" while the year is solar and the "calendar" is in sync with the seasons.
As for the "so-called" 7ajj, (i love your belittling attiude, ka2ano nizzil 3alek el wa7i mashallah!), where does it say anything about a waxing crescent? I'm curious. Maybe i missed that part.
2189 talks about the crescents being used as a timing device for the real "7ajj". Your so-called "7ajj" doesn't use the crescents for anything. It starts on an arbitrary day, the 8th of Dhul-Hijjah and ends on the 10th. Thus, its timing has nothing to do with the crescent.
And stop anglicizing it. It's QUR'AN. And not THE READING. Wasn't there an epic of an article about how we should use the names Allah assigned to things? Hmmm must've been the other quranite site. Oops i used the Q word! See everyone can put "secterian" labels on everyone else btw.
You are not making any sense. As usual, you seem to have a preconception and you are arguing against it instead of against what is presented here. Do you even know what the word "quran" means? If so, please tell us what it means.
I'll respond to your full reply later, i must continue my game of CIV4 right now. They have religions added in. Very interesting.
I look forward to you giving a productive reply to the article. To be productive, I suggest that you read it first, do your research to verify what is said in it, and then quote the passages that you think are flawed and highlight what is wrong with them. This would be more helpful.
Peace on who followed the guidance,
Ayman
-
Ok i rewrote a few things.
You are either confused between articles or unable to read properly because you haven't addressed or argued against a single point from the article in the link. Instead, you keep arguing against the count of 365 days and the 19 year Metonic cycle, which are points never made in this article. Those points were made in another article that has major mistakes.
They didn't have to be in your article. THATS MY POINT, Im pointing them out. Something which is lacking is pointed out.
You didn't bring a single one. I would appreciate it if you show me where there are holes in the article so that I can correct it. Instead of your empty boasting, please be specific and quote the appropriate passage from the article and tell everyone what is wrong with it.
I'm done repeating myself. If you can't understand what i'm pointing out to you without me having to draw you a picture, then re-read all my posts regarding the subject.
One can approach this from three points of views, (1) What the great reading tells us, (2) Scientific, and (3) Historical.
(1) From what the great reading tells us, we can clearly see that the year is solar. When shown 1712, at first you tried to make the baseless argument that "3am" is lunar and "sana" is solar or something like this. When you were proven wrong, you didn't admit your error and instead shifted to the hypocritical rhetorical argument that using the sun for timing is somehow "pagan".
Again, you didn't read properly. I said that pagans have used the sun cycle to time everything, which lead them to associate natural cycles with gods which they thaught were in the sky, such as the moon, the sun, and other stars. Hence it would seem logical that The God would want us to steer clear from the same error. That is the idea i get from it, just as YOU get a different idea from The Reading.
To see your Arabic mistake, just read 106, which is the immediately next passage. Is "ayat liqawm ya3lamoon" a function of just the last part that came before it ("ma khalaq Allah fi alsamawat wa alard") or is it a function of everything that came before it ("ikhtilaf allay wa alnahar wa ma khalaq Allah fi alsamawat wa alard")? Of course, it is a function of everything that came before it NOT just the last part. Now apply the same logic to 105. Moreover, one has to effectively understand the great reading by looking at all the passages and not one in isolation. When 1712 and 105 are read TOGETHER we can clearly see the meaning of 105. Notice that 1712 talks about daylight and night and 105 talks about the light of the sun. Notice that immediately after 105 we hear in 106 about the daylight and the night like in 1712. So those two passages are connected and we must understand them in light of each other.
Ayman. Obviously we have to take the passages in full. And they are referring to all those Signs. But SPECIFICALLY, if you do any sort of NA7AWI or QAW3ED or E3RAB, it is beyond obvious.
"Huw-alathi ja3al al-shams dhiya2, w al-qamara noora, wa kaddarahu manazil lita3lamou 3adad as-sinin wal 7isab"
This part of kaddar is clearly about the moon and when you Kadder something, it is to measure it and to dissect it which would lead to the learning of time keeping.
But now i see your point. You're saying that the part about "lita3lamou.." is referring to all the ayats before it. Ok i can't disagree there. But then lets take the other verses that mention the Day and Night together and they have nothing to do with time keeping, but their function in our daily lives.
Also, the alteration of day and night is needed in order for us to properly measure out the progression of the crescents on a daily basis, instead of trying to seperate a constant progression. Know what i mean? So it can still be interperted, but someone as hard headed as me, as pointing to a lunar cycle ) hehehe
(2) Scientifically, at first you tried to make the baseless argument that "lunar calendars are better at specifying hunting restrictions". When you were again proven wrong, you didn't admit your error and instead made a false argument that the "restricted months were not about hunting".
Again you misunderstand. I said that it doesn't make sense because the "mating season" which would dictate when restricting hunting would be, is the opposite on either hemisphere. ie North and South. You do know that Spring in North = Fall in South and vice versa. So your perfect system would be flawed right off the bat.
My argument was that with the rotation restricted months, and the fact that you have one in the middle of the year, and 3 on the other end, would make great to accomodate this restriction, and within 19 years the cycle resets. So again, just as to YOU your interpretation SEEMS logical, to ME my interpertation is MORE logical. Purely subjective.
When shown 51-2, etc. and clearly proven wrong, you again didn't admit your mistake and again resorted to empty rhetoric. You can't be sincerely striving if you can't even admit such manifest errors. I don't think that your game of CIV4 will help you correct such errors.
I IGNORED your reference to 51 because it speaks of a state of I7RAM and its relation to the 7ajj (whatever you want it to be), and in 52 is AL-SHAHR-AL-7ARAM..singular. Again you take the most clear of ayats and twist them around to make them fit your subjective interpertation. What about 2194 and 2217 and 95? WHat does have to do with hunting? ALL KILLING is forbidden in those months, especially when it comes to FIGHTING..KITAL and is not necessarily about only the "hunting season". nnnnyaaaa...whatsup doc.
(3) Historically, even traditionalist sectarians admit that the present day so-called Islamic calendar was invented during the time of Umar I and hence the prophet didn't use this calendar.
Yes of course. Just as only with Umar was there a single authoratative Qur'an compiled, so you wanna doubt his reliability..go ahead..you're shooting youself in the foot. And all that Umar did FYI is meet with his companions and set the beginning YEAR of the calendar, and not the months or calendar itself. Hence they chose the Hijra to be year 1. The months themselves were already in operation, since we know the prophet performed 7ajj and sawm on multiple times, for at least 10 years while he was in Madina.
So as we can all see, the great reading, science, and history converge and support the understanding presented in the article and demolish your false arguments.
I have responded to everyone one of your claims but i can see how easily a new comer or a someone with little knowledge can be easily convicnced of your writings. That was a compliment btw, because you do expound well your points. I'm just showing you MY view of things.
The God gives us the scorching full-moon ("shahr ramadan") as the marker. This is the first full-moon after the summer solstice. It is also the first restricted full-moon. So you count four full moons starting with the scorching full-moon and you get the timing for the restriction. You count 12 full-moons until the next summer solstice and then you start over. If you get 13 full moons, you skip counting the 13th moon because we are told to only count 12 and this way you get automatic intercalation. It is the simplest and least error prone mechanism. This way, the lunar cycles and the solar cycles are used for timing as indicated in 1712 and 105. So you essentially have lunar "months" while the year is solar and the "calendar" is in sync with the seasons.
The Scorching Full Moon issue is up to date. But for sake of argument lets say its that. You forget that the arabs had the names of the months before the Quran was revealed, and because of their adding of months, they would keep them in a seasonal synch. So the fact that the month of ramadhan was named that way is no surprise if in fact it is the 9th month, which would fit in your time period.
Ok and how would you put this on someone's fridge so i can plan when to go to the beach?
2189 talks about the crescents being used as a timing device for the real "7ajj". Your so-called "7ajj" doesn't use the crescents for anything. It starts on an arbitrary day, the 8th of Dhul-Hijjah and ends on the 10th. Thus, its timing has nothing to do with the crescent.
sigh granted and agreed that the crescents point it out? But you said yourself a crescent is a phase of the moon, which phase specifacally? We know that hillel is a crescent of a certain size, where can you see the proper set time for it? The 8th Dhul-Hijjah is basically on the start of the second quandrant/quarter whatever it is. The verse never says which specific hillel to use and when to start it. Hence you need the Sunna. Unless you show me otherwise. Anyway im no expert on this specifc issue but ill look it up.
You are not making any sense. As usual, you seem to have a preconception and you are arguing against it instead of against what is presented here. Do you even know what the word "quran" means? If so, please tell us what it means.
Dude.. i KNOW what it means and i KNOW it would means something close to THE GREAT READING, but would you call someone who's name is Ismael in Arabic, "Hey! Name of God, how are you?" or would you just call him Ismael? That's the point!
I look forward to you giving a productive reply to the article. To be productive, I suggest that you read it first, do your research to verify what is said in it, and then quote the passages that you think are flawed and highlight what is wrong with them. This would be more helpful.
Did it even dawn on you that maybe i was writing my own ideas to counter your propositions and not necessarily a point by point by line by line refutation of your article? But you're begging for it so i will.
Point by point. Which i have already done throughout my 20 posts, but whatever ill write you a dissertation worthy of academic peer review. You just won't have it in a day or two.
Salaam.
-
Peace,
In this article, it is interressant to note the fact that to take the moon as reference for the fast allows to all the people to fast the same month and every season. I liked this universal side of this analysis.
What you or I like doesn't matter when it comes to the truth. What matters is what The God is telling us in the great reading. There is nothing in the great reading that says that we should follow a purely lunar calendar or that the fast is at different times each year and there is no evidence in the great reading or anywhere that the prophet used to fast at different times each year as you would like to do.
If not according to you ayman, to which period of the calendar gregorian corresponds "SH' AR RAMADHAN"? Is this period it same the all year? Do all the people meet this period or this regulation is valid only for those which observe this period?
For the answer to your questions, please see
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/science/timing.htmPeace,
Ayman
Peace
Ayman you say in your article that
"the full-moon around the summer solstice is special because it follows a lower path across the sky compared to the rest of the year's full moons and for some reason our brains are wired to perceive such full-moons as larger than normal."
Can Ayman you provide us evidence of what you advance?
Why don't you expressed last year at the time of the summer solstice to
recall that the abstinence begins?how translate if shahr does not mean "month"
Can you explain this passage
"Another interesting connection is in 2187, which talks about the night of the abstinence ("laylat al-siyam") in which we may approach our wives and eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn and then complete the abstinence until the night (i.e., until sunset since night starts being merged into day at sunset - for example see 2261). We already established that abstinence is then for ten days. In Chapter 89 we also hear about the dawn and then 10 nights"
Which is the relationship between the abstinence of which you speak
and the fact of being able to approach our wives, to eat and drink
until the white wire is distinct from the black wire of the paddle.Does the relationship between couple have a bond with the laws of
hunting?I just try to understand your article because my English language isn't very good. I test to understand your interpretation.
Peace.
-
Peace,
Thank you for your thoughtful questions.
Ayman you say in your article that
"the full-moon around the summer solstice is special because it follows a lower path across the sky compared to the rest of the year's full moons and for some reason our brains are wired to perceive such full-moons as larger than normal."
Can Ayman you provide us evidence of what you advance?
This is not something that I advanced. It is well known and you probably saw this reddish colored full-moon in past summers. It is the most spectacular full-moon and it grabs the attention of people if they happen to be outside that night and see it. For more info on why the full-moon around the summer solstice is special, please see
http//science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2000/ast14jun_1.htmWhy don't you expressed last year at the time of the summer solstice to
recall that the abstinence begins?I am not sure I understand your question. This year's summer solstice occurred on June 21st. The scorching full moon occurred on the night of June 21-22. So the fasting started on the dawn of June 22 and lasted for 10 days, i.e. until July 1st.
We count four full moons (including the scorching full-moon) to determine the restriction period. For this year, the fourth full-moon was on September 18.
For 2005-2006, there will be 13 full-moons between the summer solstices. We are to count only 12 as per 936. Thus, we would not count the 13th moon. So the next scorching full-moon will be on July 11, 2006. All the information that I am giving is for the Northern hemisphere. For the southern hemisphere, the timing will be different but again this is natural because the period for hunting restrictions will have to be different.
how translate if shahr does not mean "month"
- And those who die from you and leave spouses, they (the spouses) should wait on themselves four full-moons and ten (days). So when they reach their term, there is no blame on you for what they do in themselves with recognized good; and The God is informed of what you do.
2234 is in line with 2189, which says that the crescents are timing devices for people in general (not just for "7ajj"). In this case, the ten extra days is the exact time it takes for the full-moon to reach the crescent stage again.
Can you explain this passage
"Another interesting connection is in 2187, which talks about the night of the abstinence ("laylat al-siyam") in which we may approach our wives and eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn and then complete the abstinence until the night (i.e., until sunset since night starts being merged into day at sunset - for example see 2261). We already established that abstinence is then for ten days. In Chapter 89 we also hear about the dawn and then 10 nights"
Which is the relationship between the abstinence of which you speak and the fact of being able to approach our wives, to eat and drink until the white wire is distinct from the black wire of the paddle.
I do not understand your question. The Arabic says
"... ...The passage in English can be translated as "and eat and drink until the white thread from the black thread of dawn is revealed to you then complete the abstinence until the night". The expression "until it is revealed to you the white thread from the black thread of dawn" is a metaphor for the start of dawn.
Does the relationship between couple have a bond with the laws of hunting?
No.
I just try to understand your article because my English language isn't very good. I test to understand your interpretation.
I understand and I appreciate your sincerity and I will try to explain as best as I can. Do you know Arabic? In this case, I can provide more Arabic explanations. Please let me know if you have other questions.
Peace,
Ayman