Quran & Democracy: Are they compatible? by M. Asadi

mquran

Salaamun alaikum KGB,

I would like to discuss the matter of selection with you and MQuran wihout getting interrupted by ignorant munafiqeen.

Hope to have this discussion in near future. I pray Allah Taala grant you lots of patience but you need it when dealing with ignorant munafiqeen.

The reason any disagreement exists in this case is because Al-quraan isn't allowed to take its place as the arbiter. How many times has Joe asked for evidence without avail ? What does that tell you?

The sad truth is, many of us are intoxicated with the beautiful slogans of 'democracy', 'human rights', 'tolerance' etc etc without realising that the words are meaningless unless one has power. Thanks to occidentosis, we percieve the acquisition of power as vulgar and allow ourselves to be ruled by al-kafireen.

Its best to leave those who don't want to be judged by the book of Allah, KGB.

Jaxal

It is funny, for the past 10 pages nothing but 'talk' has been given in support of Quran being anti-democratic. I think asking someone how to choose a leader using the Quran is too big of a responsibility. How about an even simpler question, thanks to LT.

Is quran a guide to running a country?

The answer, LIKE THE QUESTION, is simple and straight forward

Yes - Everything i need to know about running the country is in the Quran. We should run the country the way Allah intended us. By being ruled by a messenger. I mean, we dont know who the messenger is now, or where he lives or when he will come to power or IF he/she/it even exits I mean damn maybe its the guy sitting in front of me in the bus or maybe he is the guy who cleans the car at that hand wash carshop or maybe he is a piano player, but eventually this messenger will decide to come forword ....... hopefull ........ fx

OR

No.

TheNabi

Peace,

I think asking someone how to choose a leader using the Quran is too big of a responsibility.

I do not think it is a responsibility because Allah has not said it is up to the people to choose leaders for themselves. We do not pick who is to be rasoola Allah. It is Allah who chooses who has such an appointment.

Its best to leave those who don't want to be judged by the book of Allah, KGB.

Powerful/Positive words MQ. )

Joe

Ali_Omar

Hi,

There are two outer limits of administration in a community.

Absolute dictatorship, where ?total? power is on one hand.
Absolute anarchy, where ?total? power is given to each and every one.

In between these outer limits we have all kinds of solutions to govern a community, some of which are called democracies.

As we all know, a democracy is a rule of majority, and this majority, however small, has total power.
There may be direct democracy, where every single soul forming a majority has a say in every question that comes up, or through a representative body elected by the majority.
Whatever way a democracy is instituted, it is based on use of force in order to govern the community in the way the majority dictatorship deem beneficial for them selves. shock

The qur?an does not promote democracy in this manner. It has laid down absolute immutable laws which we are told to obey, and these laws are in agreement with the function, or the laws, of the Universe.
Islam actually promotes both outer limits mentioned above, total dictatorship and total anarchy at the same time. The perfect solution! ?

This is absolutely impossible to implement unless power is balanced off with responsibility.
We tend to see power as separated from responsibility, and that is how all our governing systems ?function? today. roll

Power to rule should automatically mean responsibility towards everything and every one in a community. This is what islam promotes, but we, the humans, can not, or do not, or do not want to, understand.

No leader, democratic or otherwise, in today?s World takes absolute responsibility for actions taken by him/her, or on behalf of him/her.
A political leader?s words ?I take the responsibility? is one of the most sickening jokes you may ever hear. Take any leader of a community and imagine him/her really taking responsibility for actions, or lack of the same, in any situation occurring in the community, where the leader has the power to avoid the situation, or to reduce its impact. ?

Just one small little detail left then, how to implement such a system? mrgreen
I am afraid there is no entity called God who is going to send us a leader, when this God decides to do so. I believe that we, and every one and everything around us, are parts of this God, and therefore we are also responsible for finding a leader. Nothing will happen unless we do it ourselves, so, what are we waiting for? ~0

Regards

Ali Omar

Jaxal

SaLaM Ali Omar

I am afraid there is no entity called God who is going to send us a leader, when this God decides to do so.

Indeed. I was reading the posts here and it suddenly come to mind. Its like a superhero syndrome. Where people are expecting to be 'saved' by this shining knight in armour kind of messenger who will come, take the throne and lift the 'muslims' out of the deep shit they are in today. This, to say the LEAST, is comical. Its like waiting for superman. or spiderman. or batman. or catwoman. Instead of standing up and taking responsibility, these lot want to wait to be resuced. Hence, not gonna happen. God help those who help themselves.

Just to address some of the points in your post

First of all, the democracy im talking about is nothing like that exists today. Im talking about a total Quranic democracy. This means the kind of democracy that Quran tells us about. The kind where people ARE responsible for their actions.

Secondly, the majority rule will only work as long as they agree with the Quran. If the majority agrees on raping or killing, then obviously that wont be accepted. IT HAS TO AGREE WITH THE QURAN. God has given us a moral code. NOT A GUIDE TO RUN A COUNTRY. People should accept that fact.

And you are right. The kind of democracy that is going around is not promoted by the Quran. The kind of democracy that Quran is promoting is much more better and peaceful and practicle.

unknownuser

Hi Guys,
its simple. some people here believe living Quranic way is re-living/re-enacting 570 AD!
That's where all the confusion lies.
i guess they believe God has stopped absolutely guiding Mankind since Quran.(for those who believe Prophet Mohammed was the last messenger).so, they believe any goodness, right stuff not mentioned in Quran is not right after all.
well, some others are waiting for fresh messengers.
cant there be guidance without messengers being sent now?

wonder where all the actual essence of the message(Quran) vanished?

mquran

Salaamun alaikum Ali Omar,

There are two outer limits of administration in a community.

Absolute dictatorship, where total power is on one hand.
Absolute anarchy, where total power is given to each and every one.

In between these outer limits we have all kinds of solutions to govern a community, some of which are called democracies.

I'd change the word 'administration' to 'distribution of power' but agreed, that's the spectrum of it.

As we all know, a democracy is a rule of majority, and this majority, however small, has total power.
There may be direct democracy, where every single soul forming a majority has a say in every question that comes up, or through a representative body elected by the majority.
Whatever way a democracy is instituted, it is based on use of force in order to govern the community in the way the majority dictatorship deem beneficial for them selves

Good analysis. I'm glad you point this out. This 'no compulsion' slogan has been misused time and time again by democrats. Just recently an old lady was jailed for refusing to pay the INCREMENT of her council tax. So much for democracies!

The quran does not promote democracy in this manner. It has laid down absolute immutable laws which we are told to obey, and these laws are in agreement with the function, or the laws, of the Universe.
Islam actually promotes both outer limits mentioned above, total dictatorship and total anarchy at the same time. The perfect solution!

Disagreed. Al-islaam authenticates the power of the messenger/king in a certain domain provided he acquired power in the manner prescribed. However, in all dimensions not mentioned, it leaves it to our discretion.

Just one small little detail left then, how to implement such a system?
I am afraid there is no entity called God who is going to send us a leader, when this God decides to do so. I believe that we, and every one and everything around us, are parts of this God, and therefore we are also responsible for finding a leader. Nothing will happen unless we do it ourselves, so, what are we waiting for?

We shouldn't wait at all. We should practise as much as we can from al-kitaab. It's not impossible for any of us to recieve revelation and begin the mission of ar-rasul. Shareef certainly thought he recieved it. In the mean time, just do as much amaalus salih as possible. Actualise the messenger from your own nafs.

looking forward to your comments

stillearning

salaam mquran or anyone who might care to answer this question without going of another tangent

Good analysis. I'm glad you point this out. This 'no compulsion' slogan has been misused time and time again by democrats. Just recently an old lady was jailed for refusing to pay the INCREMENT of her council tax. So much for democracies!

Any country or society needs rule, millions of them. For example what speed we drive cars, how many people in a given space govern fire hazard, if someone commits arson what evidence is required and what penalities should be available. Can you simply explain to me how in November 8th 2005 you or anyone are going to produce rules for above to function a given society or country. To keep matters simple let us just keep the discussion to three examples I have mentioned
regards

mquran

Wasalam Stillearning,

Any country or society needs rule, millions of them. For example what speed we drive cars, how many people in a given space govern fire hazard, if someone commits arson what evidence is required and what penalities should be available. Can you simply explain to me how in November 8th 2005 you or anyone are going to produce rules for above to function a given society or country. To keep matters simple let us just keep the discussion to three examples I have mentioned
regards

Before we do that, can I please ask you this as it has relevance to the proceeding discussion

Why is it OK for 'society' to FORCE rule on people yet when we speak of an islamic domain, the 'no compulsion' rule is mentioned? Isnt a democracy meant to ensure freedom of choice?

You mentioned 3 examples. May I ask where? i can seem to find them.

stillearning

salaam mquran

Before we do that, can I please ask you this as it has relevance to the proceeding discussion

page 11 and we still have not grasped this question let me as simple as possible
(i) Discussion was that the quran is anti-democratci
(ii) Democracy is a form of governing system (good or bad is another issue)
(iii) We need some form of governing system today on 8th novemeber 2005- yes orn no will be sufficent
(iv) If we do require some form of the governing system then the examples i have given require rules for any given country or society
(v) Explain please how your given system will form rules for the examples that i have given

You mentioned 3 examples. May I ask where? i can seem to find them.

Thre mentioned examples are

For example what speed we drive cars, how many people in a given space govern fire hazard, if someone commits arson what evidence is required and what penalities should be available

(a) Most people i know drive cars - so we need rules to govern their speed- is this a difficult point to understand

(b) I work for a big institution, which has big buildings and many people are present in these buildings at a given time. Rules are required how these buildings should be adapted and the number of people in any given building at a given time for their own physical safety

(c) There are criminal elements in any given society if anyone commits arson then society will require minimal proof to asses their guilt or innocence and also what penalties, punishment should be available.

To find examples of these please (a) Drive a car on any given road
(b) Go to any big public building and ask to see the safety rules
(3) deliberately set fire to your own house and see what happens.

i hope this is all simple enough
regards

mquran

Salam Stillearning,

Ok, you failed to understand my question. So I will rephrase in the manner which you consider simple

do you agree that people need laws?
if people disobey the laws, should they be let off?
if not, this is a compulsion to follow laws. you are against compulsion. therefore, in your society, murder is ok because the murder cannot be compelled to follow the laws.

Al-quraan contains legal injunctions. do you agree to this or not? If you think al-quraan is a moral guidance, then what are we supposed to do with the laws? Abrogate them?

When you've dealt with these questions, inshaa Allah, i will engage with yours. Hope this is simple enough for you.

mquran

Peacefulmuslimits simple. some people here believe living Quranic way is re-living/re-enacting 570 AD!

False. No one here believes that. Show me any ayat in al-quraan which implies the messenger lived only in the past.

That's where all the confusion lies.
i guess they believe God has stopped absolutely guiding Mankind since Quran.(for those who believe Prophet Mohammed was the last messenger).so, they believe any goodness, right stuff not mentioned in Quran is not right after all.

Once again, false. Anyone can performs amalus salih at any time. This thread is about the structure of command and distribution of power. Please try to keep up , peacefulmuslim. Jumping in without reading leads to a misapprehension.

well, some others are waiting for fresh messengers.
cant there be guidance without messengers being sent now?

Of course there can be. However, once again THIS IS NOT THE POINT OF THE THREAD. We're not talking about GUIDANCE. We're talking about STRUCTURE OF COMMAND AND DISTRIBUTION OF POWER. Does al-quraan promote democracy? Joe, KGB and myself have been asking for evidence for some months without results. Why is this ? Perhaps the search for non-existent ayaat is a futile one?

wonder where all the actual essence of the message(Quran) vanished?

The message of al-quraan is ever present in the world. However, there are people who are intoxicated by the slogans of the kuffar and think that the promises the kuffar makes (such as freedom of choice and tolerance) are real DESPITE what's going on in the world. Al-quraan on the other hand, slices through this veil of hypocrisy and exposes such people. Sadly, some 'quranists' don't really believe and refuse to judge by it.

unknownuser

hi mquran,

Show me any ayat in al-quraan which implies the messenger lived only in the past.

3340 Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets and Allah has full knowledge of all things.
53 This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.

unknownuser

hi mquran,

Peacefulmuslimits simple. some people here believe living Quranic way is re-living/re-enacting 570 AD!

False. No one here believes that.

then why are u waiting for a messenger to come and govern the people? why cant an elected representaitive be chosen?

unknownuser

LT LT how many times do i have to tell you that no one here is ignoring the DIVINE IMMUTABLE LAW . You look at the Quran as if its a book on "Running a country for Dummies". ITS NOT.

But you are Jaxal you are ignoring DIVINE LAW. Lashes for Adultery - that is a DIVINE IMMUTABLE LAW!

If i asked you to run a country, will you look in the Quran on a 'How to run a country for Dummies?' ?

But you don't get it do you Jaxal? Every society requires rules and regulations. In a DEMOCRACY the rules are devised by the people and these rules CAN BE changed. DIVINE IMMUTABLE LAWS can't be changed. Therefore DIVINE IMMUTABLE LAWS and DEMOCRACY are not compatible...

And no, dont take your time with the answer.... old chap wink

One has other interesting things to do besides chomping on buckets of KFC and go an forum wink

Regards,

mquran

PM 3340 Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets and Allah has full knowledge of all things.
53 This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.

Lets assume for a second that 'muhammad' in 33/40 is the historical Muhammad ibn Abdullah. Does al-quraan say that muhammad is the ONLY messenger of Allah?

Al-quraan says To every people (was sent) an apostle when their apostle comes (before them), the matter will be judged between them with justice, and they will not be wronged.(10/46)

messengership never stops.

O ye apostles! enjoy (all) things good and pure, and work righteousness for I am well-acquainted with (all) that ye do.(23/51)

If Muhammad was the last messenger, why did Allah address it to MESSENGERS? Grammatical mistake on God's part?

then why are u waiting for a messenger to come and govern the people? why cant an elected representaitive be chosen?

Because I (to the best of my ability) want to follow God's system. And God's system begins with revelation. God's system does not seperate metaphysics from politics.

TheNabi

Hi Guys,

Peace ,

its simple. some people here believe living Quranic way is re-living/re-enacting 570 AD!

Your assumption is wrong. At least it is wrong for me and I believe MQ as well. Your association is way off. I cannot figure what it is that is making you misunderstand in such a way, but hopefully things can be cleared up.

That's where all the confusion lies.

No I think this is where your confusion is.

i guess they believe God has stopped absolutely guiding Mankind since Quran. --> (for those who believe Prophet Mohammed was the last messenger).

Well no. Since we are not saying a man named Muhammad was the last rasool I'm not sure why you even brought this conjecture up?

so, they believe any goodness, right stuff not mentioned in Quran is not right after all.

What? I do not comprehend. The decree/kitab is full of wisdom .

well, some others are waiting for fresh messengers.
cant there be guidance without messengers being sent now?

Sure there can be. This is not the issue here. If you want to stay off tangents then such questions should be withheld.

wonder where all the actual essence of the message(Quran) vanished?

It did not.

Joe

mquran

Your assumption is wrong. At least it is wrong for me and I believe MQ as well. Your association is way off. I cannot figure what it is that is making you misunderstand in such a way, but hopefully things can be cleared up.

Peace Joe. I have no idea where this 570AD thing came from either. One thing which struck me about al-quraan (and still strikes me from time to time) is its ability to cut right through the fluff and hit straight to the essence of man. Its amazing. However modern we get with all our technical jargon which complexifies society, al-quraan just sweeps it all away and focusses on what counts our essence.

unknownuser

Hi mquran,

PM 3340 Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets and Allah has full knowledge of all things.
53 This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.

Lets assume for a second that 'muhammad' in 33/40 is the historical Muhammad ibn Abdullah. Does al-quraan say that muhammad is the ONLY messenger of Allah?
Al-quraan says To every people (was sent) an apostle when their apostle comes (before them), the matter will be judged between them with justice, and they will not be wronged.(10/46)
messengership never stops.
O ye apostles! enjoy (all) things good and pure, and work righteousness for I am well-acquainted with (all) that ye do.(23/51)
If Muhammad was the last messenger, why did Allah address it to MESSENGERS? Grammatical mistake on God's part?

1047 To every people (was sent) an apostle when their apostle comes (before them), the matter will be judged between them with justice, and they will not be wronged.

2344 Then sent We our apostles in succession every time there came to a people their apostle, they accused him of falsehood so We made them follow each other (in punishment) We made them as a tale (that is told) So away with a people that will not believe!
2345 Then We sent Moses and his brother Aaron, with Our Signs and authority manifest,
2346 To Pharaoh and his Chiefs But these behaved insolently they were an arrogant people.
2347 They said "Shall we believe in two men like ourselves? And their people are subject to us!"
2348 So they accused them of falsehood, and they became of those who were destroyed.
2349 And We gave Moses the Book, in order that they might receive guidance.
2350 And We made the son of Mary and his mother as a Sign We gave them both shelter on high ground, affording rest and security and furnished with springs.
2351 O ye apostles! enjoy (all) things good and pure, and work righteousness for I am well-acquainted with (all) that ye do.

No, wrong understanding of the verses by you! God is clearly speaking of the prophets who came before prophet Mohammed. Hence the past tense used(grammer)
Thats why the plural 'apostles'.
And I think u missed 'seal of the prophets' in 3340 as well.

Where in Quran, do u find Allah saying there are more messengers to come after Prophet Mohammed to govern people? Like u ask always, bring a Quranic proof to ur claim.

Because I (to the best of my ability) want to follow God's system. And God's system begins with revelation. God's system does not seperate metaphysics from politics.

peace guy! )

unknownuser

Hi Nabi,

its simple. some people here believe living Quranic way is re-living/re-enacting 570 AD!

Your assumption is wrong. At least it is wrong for me and I believe MQ as well. Your association is way off. I cannot figure what it is that is making you misunderstand in such a way, but hopefully things can be cleared up.

If my assumption is wrong, boy, am i glad!wink

That's where all the confusion lies.

No I think this is where your confusion is.

P No comments. Peace!

i guess they believe God has stopped absolutely guiding Mankind since Quran. --> (for those who believe Prophet Mohammed was the last messenger)
well, some others are waiting for fresh messengers. .

Well no. Since we are not saying a man named Muhammad was the last rasool I'm not sure why you even brought this conjecture up?

I said ''some'' believe he is the last prophet. u r the second group who are waiting for more messengers to come to govern mankind.