Quran & Democracy: Are they compatible? by M. Asadi
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Salam Stillearning,
Ok, you failed to understand my question. So I will rephrase in the manner which you consider simple
- do you agree that people need laws?
- if people disobey the laws, should they be let off?
- if not, this is a compulsion to follow laws. you are against compulsion. therefore, in your society, murder is ok because the murder cannot be compelled to follow the laws.
Al-quraan contains legal injunctions. do you agree to this or not? If you think al-quraan is a moral guidance, then what are we supposed to do with the laws? Abrogate them?
When you've dealt with these questions, inshaa Allah, i will engage with yours. Hope this is simple enough for you.
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Peacefulmuslimits simple. some people here believe living Quranic way is re-living/re-enacting 570 AD!
False. No one here believes that. Show me any ayat in al-quraan which implies the messenger lived only in the past.
That's where all the confusion lies.
i guess they believe God has stopped absolutely guiding Mankind since Quran.(for those who believe Prophet Mohammed was the last messenger).so, they believe any goodness, right stuff not mentioned in Quran is not right after all.Once again, false. Anyone can performs amalus salih at any time. This thread is about the structure of command and distribution of power. Please try to keep up , peacefulmuslim. Jumping in without reading leads to a misapprehension.
well, some others are waiting for fresh messengers.
cant there be guidance without messengers being sent now?Of course there can be. However, once again THIS IS NOT THE POINT OF THE THREAD. We're not talking about GUIDANCE. We're talking about STRUCTURE OF COMMAND AND DISTRIBUTION OF POWER. Does al-quraan promote democracy? Joe, KGB and myself have been asking for evidence for some months without results. Why is this ? Perhaps the search for non-existent ayaat is a futile one?
wonder where all the actual essence of the message(Quran) vanished?
The message of al-quraan is ever present in the world. However, there are people who are intoxicated by the slogans of the kuffar and think that the promises the kuffar makes (such as freedom of choice and tolerance) are real DESPITE what's going on in the world. Al-quraan on the other hand, slices through this veil of hypocrisy and exposes such people. Sadly, some 'quranists' don't really believe and refuse to judge by it.
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hi mquran,
Show me any ayat in al-quraan which implies the messenger lived only in the past.
3340 Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets and Allah has full knowledge of all things.
53 This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. -
hi mquran,
Peacefulmuslimits simple. some people here believe living Quranic way is re-living/re-enacting 570 AD!
False. No one here believes that.
then why are u waiting for a messenger to come and govern the people? why cant an elected representaitive be chosen?
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LT LT how many times do i have to tell you that no one here is ignoring the DIVINE IMMUTABLE LAW . You look at the Quran as if its a book on "Running a country for Dummies". ITS NOT.
But you are Jaxal you are ignoring DIVINE LAW. Lashes for Adultery - that is a DIVINE IMMUTABLE LAW!
If i asked you to run a country, will you look in the Quran on a 'How to run a country for Dummies?' ?
But you don't get it do you Jaxal? Every society requires rules and regulations. In a DEMOCRACY the rules are devised by the people and these rules CAN BE changed. DIVINE IMMUTABLE LAWS can't be changed. Therefore DIVINE IMMUTABLE LAWS and DEMOCRACY are not compatible...
And no, dont take your time with the answer.... old chap wink
One has other interesting things to do besides chomping on buckets of KFC and go an forum wink
Regards,
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PM 3340 Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets and Allah has full knowledge of all things.
53 This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.Lets assume for a second that 'muhammad' in 33/40 is the historical Muhammad ibn Abdullah. Does al-quraan say that muhammad is the ONLY messenger of Allah?
Al-quraan says To every people (was sent) an apostle when their apostle comes (before them), the matter will be judged between them with justice, and they will not be wronged.(10/46)
messengership never stops.
O ye apostles! enjoy (all) things good and pure, and work righteousness for I am well-acquainted with (all) that ye do.(23/51)
If Muhammad was the last messenger, why did Allah address it to MESSENGERS? Grammatical mistake on God's part?
then why are u waiting for a messenger to come and govern the people? why cant an elected representaitive be chosen?
Because I (to the best of my ability) want to follow God's system. And God's system begins with revelation. God's system does not seperate metaphysics from politics.
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Hi Guys,
Peace ,
its simple. some people here believe living Quranic way is re-living/re-enacting 570 AD!
Your assumption is wrong. At least it is wrong for me and I believe MQ as well. Your association is way off. I cannot figure what it is that is making you misunderstand in such a way, but hopefully things can be cleared up.
That's where all the confusion lies.
No I think this is where your confusion is.
i guess they believe God has stopped absolutely guiding Mankind since Quran. --> (for those who believe Prophet Mohammed was the last messenger).
Well no. Since we are not saying a man named Muhammad was the last rasool I'm not sure why you even brought this conjecture up?
so, they believe any goodness, right stuff not mentioned in Quran is not right after all.
What? I do not comprehend. The decree/kitab is full of wisdom .
well, some others are waiting for fresh messengers.
cant there be guidance without messengers being sent now?Sure there can be. This is not the issue here. If you want to stay off tangents then such questions should be withheld.
wonder where all the actual essence of the message(Quran) vanished?
It did not.
Joe
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Your assumption is wrong. At least it is wrong for me and I believe MQ as well. Your association is way off. I cannot figure what it is that is making you misunderstand in such a way, but hopefully things can be cleared up.
Peace Joe. I have no idea where this 570AD thing came from either. One thing which struck me about al-quraan (and still strikes me from time to time) is its ability to cut right through the fluff and hit straight to the essence of man. Its amazing. However modern we get with all our technical jargon which complexifies society, al-quraan just sweeps it all away and focusses on what counts our essence.
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Hi mquran,
PM 3340 Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets and Allah has full knowledge of all things.
53 This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.Lets assume for a second that 'muhammad' in 33/40 is the historical Muhammad ibn Abdullah. Does al-quraan say that muhammad is the ONLY messenger of Allah?
Al-quraan says To every people (was sent) an apostle when their apostle comes (before them), the matter will be judged between them with justice, and they will not be wronged.(10/46)
messengership never stops.
O ye apostles! enjoy (all) things good and pure, and work righteousness for I am well-acquainted with (all) that ye do.(23/51)
If Muhammad was the last messenger, why did Allah address it to MESSENGERS? Grammatical mistake on God's part?1047 To every people (was sent) an apostle when their apostle comes (before them), the matter will be judged between them with justice, and they will not be wronged.
2344 Then sent We our apostles in succession every time there came to a people their apostle, they accused him of falsehood so We made them follow each other (in punishment) We made them as a tale (that is told) So away with a people that will not believe!
2345 Then We sent Moses and his brother Aaron, with Our Signs and authority manifest,
2346 To Pharaoh and his Chiefs But these behaved insolently they were an arrogant people.
2347 They said "Shall we believe in two men like ourselves? And their people are subject to us!"
2348 So they accused them of falsehood, and they became of those who were destroyed.
2349 And We gave Moses the Book, in order that they might receive guidance.
2350 And We made the son of Mary and his mother as a Sign We gave them both shelter on high ground, affording rest and security and furnished with springs.
2351 O ye apostles! enjoy (all) things good and pure, and work righteousness for I am well-acquainted with (all) that ye do.No, wrong understanding of the verses by you! God is clearly speaking of the prophets who came before prophet Mohammed. Hence the past tense used(grammer)
Thats why the plural 'apostles'.
And I think u missed 'seal of the prophets' in 3340 as well.Where in Quran, do u find Allah saying there are more messengers to come after Prophet Mohammed to govern people? Like u ask always, bring a Quranic proof to ur claim.
Because I (to the best of my ability) want to follow God's system. And God's system begins with revelation. God's system does not seperate metaphysics from politics.
peace guy! )
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Hi Nabi,
its simple. some people here believe living Quranic way is re-living/re-enacting 570 AD!
Your assumption is wrong. At least it is wrong for me and I believe MQ as well. Your association is way off. I cannot figure what it is that is making you misunderstand in such a way, but hopefully things can be cleared up.
If my assumption is wrong, boy, am i glad!wink
That's where all the confusion lies.
No I think this is where your confusion is.
P No comments. Peace!
i guess they believe God has stopped absolutely guiding Mankind since Quran. --> (for those who believe Prophet Mohammed was the last messenger)
well, some others are waiting for fresh messengers. .Well no. Since we are not saying a man named Muhammad was the last rasool I'm not sure why you even brought this conjecture up?
I said ''some'' believe he is the last prophet. u r the second group who are waiting for more messengers to come to govern mankind.
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Salaam PM,
PM I said ''some'' believe he is the last prophet. u r the second group who are waiting for more messengers to come to govern mankind.
If im getting you correctly, you believe Muhammad was the last messenger and prophet.
ok. What do we do with all the ayaat in al-quraan dealing with prophets and messengers then? will they be abrogated ?
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Peace Mquran,
ok. What do we do with all the ayaat in al-quraan dealing with prophets and messengers then? will they be abrogated ?
specify which ones!
the ones where Allah is talking of the prophets of the past? why abrogate them?shock whew!what a suggestion!and u didnt really answer my question.
Where in Quran, do u find Allah saying there are more messengers to come after Prophet Mohammed to govern people? Like u ask always, bring a Quranic proof to ur claim.
Peace Mquran.
if there are mention of future prophets who would come after prophet Mohammed, please enlighten the verses.
coz i'd really like to know and correct my knowledge. -
Peace PM,
specify which ones!
the ones where Allah is talking of the prophets of the past? why abrogate them?Sorry. I meant the verses ADDRESSING nabis and rusul. Such as 66/1 and 23/51. Apologies for the misunderstanding.
Where in Quran, do u find Allah saying there are more messengers to come after Prophet Mohammed to govern people? Like u ask always, bring a Quranic proof to ur claim.
Ok, sorry but I missed your response to this.
You see, when al-quraan ADDRESSES people (i.e individual after al-quraan's existence into the world), it uses 'yaa ayyuha or ayyatuha'. 23/51 cannot be addressing past historical personalities because it would have said 'Qulu' or 'he said'. Rather, its a call to the reader of al-quraan, specifically in this case, to the rusul. Musa and Isa mentioned in the passage before are third person narratives, not directed to a second person. This is why im afraid I cannot agree with you. I believe this is a call to messengers.
I'm not sure about your perception of 10/47 ? Do you believe that we're of Muhammad ibn Abdullah's ummah as well ?
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peace Mquran,
I meant the verses ADDRESSING nabis and rusul. Such as 66/1 and 23/51
Adressed to Prophet MOhammed.
661 O Prophet! Why holdest thou to be forbidden that which Allah has made lawful to thee? Thou seekest to please thy consorts. But Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.These verses
2344 Then sent We our apostles in succession every time there came to a people their apostle, they accused him of falsehood so We made them follow each other (in punishment) We made them as a tale (that is told) So away with a people that will not believe!
2345 Then We sent Moses and his brother Aaron, with Our Signs and authority manifest,
2346 To Pharaoh and his Chiefs But these behaved insolently they were an arrogant people.
2347 They said "Shall we believe in two men like ourselves? And their people are subject to us!"
2348 So they accused them of falsehood, and they became of those who were destroyed.
2349 And We gave Moses the Book, in order that they might receive guidance.
2350 And We made the son of Mary and his mother as a Sign We gave them both shelter on high ground, affording rest and security and furnished with springs.
2351 O ye apostles! enjoy (all) things good and pure, and work righteousness for I am well-acquainted with (all) that ye do.Like i said, I think its the mention of prophets who came before prophet Mohammed. We can not pull a verse out of context, single it out and try to make sense out of it.
Where in Quran, do u find Allah saying there are more messengers to come after Prophet Mohammed to govern people? Like u ask always, bring a Quranic proof to ur claim.
I'm not sure about your perception of 10/47 ? Do you believe that we're of Muhammad ibn Abdullah's ummah as well ?
If there were more messengers to come, Why would Allah mention prophet Mohammed as the seal of the prophets in 3340.
and why would Allah also say
53 This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.And as for
1047 To every people (was sent) an apostle when their apostle comes (before them), the matter will be judged between them with justice, and they will not be wronged.
Again spoken in the past tense about the previous apostles!there is no mention of future Prophets after Prophet Mohammed in Quran.
All the verses where Prophets are mentioned either relate to Prophet Mohammed or the prophets who came before him to guide mankind. if there were more to come, wouldnt Allah mention ?
This is my understanding.
If u know better, please feel free to share ur knowledge.
we are all here to learn/re-learn the truth. -
Salaam PM,
Like i said, I think its the mention of prophets who came before prophet Mohammed. We can not pull a verse out of context, singling it out and try to make sense out of it.
I don't think Im decontexualisng because the verses preceding 23/51 is dealing with a third person, i.e. Musa and Isa. 23/51 however, is a second person address. If it were a third person address, it would be like the verse belowBehold, Luqman said to his son by way of instruction "O my son! join not in worship (others) with God for false worship is indeed the highest wrong-doing." (31/13).
If there were more messengers to come, Why would Allah mention prophet Mohammed as the seal of the prophets in 3340.
We should distinctify messengers and prophets. And then, we should ask why the word isn't 'last of the prophets'.
and why would Allah also say
53 This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.Al-islaam was the same from the beginning. Each messenger was given the same system. Please see 6/84-90
And as for
1047 To every people (was sent) an apostle when their apostle comes (before them), the matter will be judged between them with justice, and they will not be wronged.
Again spoken in the past tense about the previous apostles!So the entire humanity post-muhammad is of muhammad ibn abdullah's ummah ?
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Salaam
- do you agree that people need laws?
- if people disobey the laws, should they be let off?
- if not, this is a compulsion to follow laws. you are against compulsion. therefore, in your society, murder is ok because the murder cannot be compelled to follow the laws.
mquran are you able to grasp anything or you deliberately trying, as they say 'take the p---'
Let me go through each of the pints you have raised and see if you can do the same.
(1)do you agree that people need laws?
I dont know what you have been reading or if you had bothered to read any of my posts. This is exactly the point i have been making. We need laws to govern any given societywhich bit of this have you not understood from my previous posts
(2)if people disobey the laws, should they be let off?
If you had been on planet earth then you would have read that if anyone disobeys laws then they should be punished
if someone commits arson what evidence is required and what penalities should be available This is one of my recent post, did you bother reading it. Arson, Penalties Which bit of arson and penalties did you not understand that led to your question if people disobey the laws, should they be let off?(3)
if not, this is a compulsion to follow laws. you are against compulsion. therefore, in your society, murder is ok because the murder cannot be compelled to follow the laws. [/quoteIf you dont think there is compulsion in following laws where you live and decide to break them then you are likely end up in a place where they will give you accomodation, free food- it is usually called prsion or a secure psychiatric unit.
murder is ok because the murder cannot be compelled to follow the laws.
Why do you keep repeating this. I have answerd you so many times. In a society that I live and want to live has and will have rules, I have given you umpteenth examples, those that break those rules will be punished accordingly.
How much simpler and cleare do you want the answers.
Now just answer on simplke question
Who and how in your society or country is going to determine at what speed vehicles should be driven? -
SaLaM
LT
But you don't get it do you Jaxal? Every society requires rules and regulations. In a DEMOCRACY the rules are devised by the people and these rules CAN BE changed. DIVINE IMMUTABLE LAWS can't be changed. Therefore DIVINE IMMUTABLE LAWS and DEMOCRACY are not compatible...
Did i mention democracy anywhere in that question? Dont reat too much into the question. It is as simple as it looks. So, once again... old chap, If i asked you to run a country, will you look in the Quran on a 'How to run a country for Dummies?' ?
PM
some people here believe living Quranic way is re-living/re-enacting 570 AD!
You dont say. Even worse is that the kind of system these people are talking about is no better than the current way sunnis and shias run their country. So what is quranic about that simply boggles me. Here what disturbs me even more. They want to run a country based on a book which has been altered and possibly changed. I believe it was idolfree who said that "its just a book" The message of God is not limited to the physical constraints oh a book with that many pages. Second, this book didnt come down as a 'How to run a country for Dummies' guide. The message was meant for guidance. You read the Torah and side swiping all the BS that is in there, you can get pretty good guidance from it too. Infact, you dont even NEED a book to be guided. So why the importance on a book is simply beyond me.
Next is the whole follow the messenger issue. This is the thought process
1] we need a messenger to run a country
2] we will listen and obey the messenger without a shread of doubt
3] The messenger is sent from God
4] God places the messenger upon us to rule us
5] ANYONE can be a messenger. A bus driver, a waiter, a lecturer, a book salesman, a cyclist. ANYONE can be a possible messenger
6] a country cannot run without a messenger
7] WE DONT KNOW WHO THE MESSENGER IS. SHAREEF IS A POSSIBLE CANDIDATE BUT HIS BELEIFS DIFFER FROM US SO WE WONT ACCEPT HIMSo as you can see from above its still an amature thought process where no head or tails is being made. Somehow, the messeger is supposed to be both special and sent from God. HAve super knowledge about everything. Be strong and what not, basically being a bluddy boyscout rotfl . Then on the other hand, messengers are not so special. They can be anyone. aboslutely any tom dick and harry can be a messenger of God they are waiting for to come and rescue them. Basically somehow, someway... a letter will arrive to some person saying HE is the messenger. how else is he gonna prove that he is a messenger? Obviously people will choose those with whome they agree. So now, the messenger is someone who has superhuman capabilites, whose belifs are the similar to those who will choose him, who has good presentation skills among many others things. The quran doesnt support such nonsense.
On the other hand, This is what the Quran says. OBEY THOSE WHO ARE CHARGED WITH AUTHORITY. And that is that. It is IMPOSSIBLE to run a country based on a corrupt book. WE wouldnt use a corrupt book to include and work from in our university assignment. And here we are talking about running a whole country from a book which is known to been altered or changed. It cannot get anymore clear.
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Did i mention democracy anywhere in that question? Dont reat too much into the question. It is as simple as it looks. So, once again... old chap, If i asked you to run a country, will you look in the Quran on a 'How to run a country for Dummies?' ?
Jaxal is QURAN the DIVINE IMMUTABLE LAW of GOD? or is it something else for you?
Regards,
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Loooooll LT. It amuses me how you the question eludes ur grasp D . So one more time, with a lemon twise ... old chap wink
A stranger comes to you and saying " hey old chap.... If i asked you to run a country, will you look in the Quran on a 'How to run a country for Dummies?' ?". What will be your reply? i will even provide you with choices
1] Yes. Quran is ALL i need to run a country
2] No . Quran has nothing to do with running a country
3] KFC ROCKS!!!!!!
4] Meh.... i dont know
5] Get away from me or ill beat you with my walking stick!! x
6] WHAT!!!!!! OMG !!!!! OMG!!!! OMG!!!!!! DONT YOU KNOW THE QURAN IS THE DIVINE IMMUTABLE LAW OF GOD!!!!!!!! o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o -
Loooooll LT. It amuses me how you the question eludes ur grasp D . So one more time, with a lemon twise ... old chap wink
A stranger comes to you and saying " hey old chap.... If i asked you to run a country, will you look in the Quran on a 'How to run a country for Dummies?' ?". What will be your reply? i will even provide you with choices
1] Yes. Quran is ALL i need to run a country
2] No . Quran has nothing to do with running a country
3] KFC ROCKS!!!!!!
4] Meh.... i dont know
5] Get away from me or ill beat you with my walking stick!! x
6] WHAT!!!!!! OMG !!!!! OMG!!!! OMG!!!!!! DONT YOU KNOW THE QURAN IS THE DIVINE IMMUTABLE LAW OF GOD!!!!!!!! o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o oPut away your hysterics chap wink
This is the crux of the matter the rest is extraneous words like big bucket of KFC... -)Jaxal is QURAN the DIVINE IMMUTABLE LAW of GOD? or is it something else for you?
Answer this question all in good time wink
If you can grasp this then you might understand...Regards,