Quran & Democracy: Are they compatible? by M. Asadi
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Salaam PM,
PM I said ''some'' believe he is the last prophet. u r the second group who are waiting for more messengers to come to govern mankind.
If im getting you correctly, you believe Muhammad was the last messenger and prophet.
ok. What do we do with all the ayaat in al-quraan dealing with prophets and messengers then? will they be abrogated ?
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Peace Mquran,
ok. What do we do with all the ayaat in al-quraan dealing with prophets and messengers then? will they be abrogated ?
specify which ones!
the ones where Allah is talking of the prophets of the past? why abrogate them?shock whew!what a suggestion!and u didnt really answer my question.
Where in Quran, do u find Allah saying there are more messengers to come after Prophet Mohammed to govern people? Like u ask always, bring a Quranic proof to ur claim.
Peace Mquran.
if there are mention of future prophets who would come after prophet Mohammed, please enlighten the verses.
coz i'd really like to know and correct my knowledge. -
Peace PM,
specify which ones!
the ones where Allah is talking of the prophets of the past? why abrogate them?Sorry. I meant the verses ADDRESSING nabis and rusul. Such as 66/1 and 23/51. Apologies for the misunderstanding.
Where in Quran, do u find Allah saying there are more messengers to come after Prophet Mohammed to govern people? Like u ask always, bring a Quranic proof to ur claim.
Ok, sorry but I missed your response to this.
You see, when al-quraan ADDRESSES people (i.e individual after al-quraan's existence into the world), it uses 'yaa ayyuha or ayyatuha'. 23/51 cannot be addressing past historical personalities because it would have said 'Qulu' or 'he said'. Rather, its a call to the reader of al-quraan, specifically in this case, to the rusul. Musa and Isa mentioned in the passage before are third person narratives, not directed to a second person. This is why im afraid I cannot agree with you. I believe this is a call to messengers.
I'm not sure about your perception of 10/47 ? Do you believe that we're of Muhammad ibn Abdullah's ummah as well ?
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peace Mquran,
I meant the verses ADDRESSING nabis and rusul. Such as 66/1 and 23/51
Adressed to Prophet MOhammed.
661 O Prophet! Why holdest thou to be forbidden that which Allah has made lawful to thee? Thou seekest to please thy consorts. But Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.These verses
2344 Then sent We our apostles in succession every time there came to a people their apostle, they accused him of falsehood so We made them follow each other (in punishment) We made them as a tale (that is told) So away with a people that will not believe!
2345 Then We sent Moses and his brother Aaron, with Our Signs and authority manifest,
2346 To Pharaoh and his Chiefs But these behaved insolently they were an arrogant people.
2347 They said "Shall we believe in two men like ourselves? And their people are subject to us!"
2348 So they accused them of falsehood, and they became of those who were destroyed.
2349 And We gave Moses the Book, in order that they might receive guidance.
2350 And We made the son of Mary and his mother as a Sign We gave them both shelter on high ground, affording rest and security and furnished with springs.
2351 O ye apostles! enjoy (all) things good and pure, and work righteousness for I am well-acquainted with (all) that ye do.Like i said, I think its the mention of prophets who came before prophet Mohammed. We can not pull a verse out of context, single it out and try to make sense out of it.
Where in Quran, do u find Allah saying there are more messengers to come after Prophet Mohammed to govern people? Like u ask always, bring a Quranic proof to ur claim.
I'm not sure about your perception of 10/47 ? Do you believe that we're of Muhammad ibn Abdullah's ummah as well ?
If there were more messengers to come, Why would Allah mention prophet Mohammed as the seal of the prophets in 3340.
and why would Allah also say
53 This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.And as for
1047 To every people (was sent) an apostle when their apostle comes (before them), the matter will be judged between them with justice, and they will not be wronged.
Again spoken in the past tense about the previous apostles!there is no mention of future Prophets after Prophet Mohammed in Quran.
All the verses where Prophets are mentioned either relate to Prophet Mohammed or the prophets who came before him to guide mankind. if there were more to come, wouldnt Allah mention ?
This is my understanding.
If u know better, please feel free to share ur knowledge.
we are all here to learn/re-learn the truth. -
Salaam PM,
Like i said, I think its the mention of prophets who came before prophet Mohammed. We can not pull a verse out of context, singling it out and try to make sense out of it.
I don't think Im decontexualisng because the verses preceding 23/51 is dealing with a third person, i.e. Musa and Isa. 23/51 however, is a second person address. If it were a third person address, it would be like the verse belowBehold, Luqman said to his son by way of instruction "O my son! join not in worship (others) with God for false worship is indeed the highest wrong-doing." (31/13).
If there were more messengers to come, Why would Allah mention prophet Mohammed as the seal of the prophets in 3340.
We should distinctify messengers and prophets. And then, we should ask why the word isn't 'last of the prophets'.
and why would Allah also say
53 This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.Al-islaam was the same from the beginning. Each messenger was given the same system. Please see 6/84-90
And as for
1047 To every people (was sent) an apostle when their apostle comes (before them), the matter will be judged between them with justice, and they will not be wronged.
Again spoken in the past tense about the previous apostles!So the entire humanity post-muhammad is of muhammad ibn abdullah's ummah ?
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Salaam
- do you agree that people need laws?
- if people disobey the laws, should they be let off?
- if not, this is a compulsion to follow laws. you are against compulsion. therefore, in your society, murder is ok because the murder cannot be compelled to follow the laws.
mquran are you able to grasp anything or you deliberately trying, as they say 'take the p---'
Let me go through each of the pints you have raised and see if you can do the same.
(1)do you agree that people need laws?
I dont know what you have been reading or if you had bothered to read any of my posts. This is exactly the point i have been making. We need laws to govern any given societywhich bit of this have you not understood from my previous posts
(2)if people disobey the laws, should they be let off?
If you had been on planet earth then you would have read that if anyone disobeys laws then they should be punished
if someone commits arson what evidence is required and what penalities should be available This is one of my recent post, did you bother reading it. Arson, Penalties Which bit of arson and penalties did you not understand that led to your question if people disobey the laws, should they be let off?(3)
if not, this is a compulsion to follow laws. you are against compulsion. therefore, in your society, murder is ok because the murder cannot be compelled to follow the laws. [/quoteIf you dont think there is compulsion in following laws where you live and decide to break them then you are likely end up in a place where they will give you accomodation, free food- it is usually called prsion or a secure psychiatric unit.
murder is ok because the murder cannot be compelled to follow the laws.
Why do you keep repeating this. I have answerd you so many times. In a society that I live and want to live has and will have rules, I have given you umpteenth examples, those that break those rules will be punished accordingly.
How much simpler and cleare do you want the answers.
Now just answer on simplke question
Who and how in your society or country is going to determine at what speed vehicles should be driven? -
SaLaM
LT
But you don't get it do you Jaxal? Every society requires rules and regulations. In a DEMOCRACY the rules are devised by the people and these rules CAN BE changed. DIVINE IMMUTABLE LAWS can't be changed. Therefore DIVINE IMMUTABLE LAWS and DEMOCRACY are not compatible...
Did i mention democracy anywhere in that question? Dont reat too much into the question. It is as simple as it looks. So, once again... old chap, If i asked you to run a country, will you look in the Quran on a 'How to run a country for Dummies?' ?
PM
some people here believe living Quranic way is re-living/re-enacting 570 AD!
You dont say. Even worse is that the kind of system these people are talking about is no better than the current way sunnis and shias run their country. So what is quranic about that simply boggles me. Here what disturbs me even more. They want to run a country based on a book which has been altered and possibly changed. I believe it was idolfree who said that "its just a book" The message of God is not limited to the physical constraints oh a book with that many pages. Second, this book didnt come down as a 'How to run a country for Dummies' guide. The message was meant for guidance. You read the Torah and side swiping all the BS that is in there, you can get pretty good guidance from it too. Infact, you dont even NEED a book to be guided. So why the importance on a book is simply beyond me.
Next is the whole follow the messenger issue. This is the thought process
1] we need a messenger to run a country
2] we will listen and obey the messenger without a shread of doubt
3] The messenger is sent from God
4] God places the messenger upon us to rule us
5] ANYONE can be a messenger. A bus driver, a waiter, a lecturer, a book salesman, a cyclist. ANYONE can be a possible messenger
6] a country cannot run without a messenger
7] WE DONT KNOW WHO THE MESSENGER IS. SHAREEF IS A POSSIBLE CANDIDATE BUT HIS BELEIFS DIFFER FROM US SO WE WONT ACCEPT HIMSo as you can see from above its still an amature thought process where no head or tails is being made. Somehow, the messeger is supposed to be both special and sent from God. HAve super knowledge about everything. Be strong and what not, basically being a bluddy boyscout rotfl . Then on the other hand, messengers are not so special. They can be anyone. aboslutely any tom dick and harry can be a messenger of God they are waiting for to come and rescue them. Basically somehow, someway... a letter will arrive to some person saying HE is the messenger. how else is he gonna prove that he is a messenger? Obviously people will choose those with whome they agree. So now, the messenger is someone who has superhuman capabilites, whose belifs are the similar to those who will choose him, who has good presentation skills among many others things. The quran doesnt support such nonsense.
On the other hand, This is what the Quran says. OBEY THOSE WHO ARE CHARGED WITH AUTHORITY. And that is that. It is IMPOSSIBLE to run a country based on a corrupt book. WE wouldnt use a corrupt book to include and work from in our university assignment. And here we are talking about running a whole country from a book which is known to been altered or changed. It cannot get anymore clear.
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Did i mention democracy anywhere in that question? Dont reat too much into the question. It is as simple as it looks. So, once again... old chap, If i asked you to run a country, will you look in the Quran on a 'How to run a country for Dummies?' ?
Jaxal is QURAN the DIVINE IMMUTABLE LAW of GOD? or is it something else for you?
Regards,
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Loooooll LT. It amuses me how you the question eludes ur grasp D . So one more time, with a lemon twise ... old chap wink
A stranger comes to you and saying " hey old chap.... If i asked you to run a country, will you look in the Quran on a 'How to run a country for Dummies?' ?". What will be your reply? i will even provide you with choices
1] Yes. Quran is ALL i need to run a country
2] No . Quran has nothing to do with running a country
3] KFC ROCKS!!!!!!
4] Meh.... i dont know
5] Get away from me or ill beat you with my walking stick!! x
6] WHAT!!!!!! OMG !!!!! OMG!!!! OMG!!!!!! DONT YOU KNOW THE QURAN IS THE DIVINE IMMUTABLE LAW OF GOD!!!!!!!! o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o -
Loooooll LT. It amuses me how you the question eludes ur grasp D . So one more time, with a lemon twise ... old chap wink
A stranger comes to you and saying " hey old chap.... If i asked you to run a country, will you look in the Quran on a 'How to run a country for Dummies?' ?". What will be your reply? i will even provide you with choices
1] Yes. Quran is ALL i need to run a country
2] No . Quran has nothing to do with running a country
3] KFC ROCKS!!!!!!
4] Meh.... i dont know
5] Get away from me or ill beat you with my walking stick!! x
6] WHAT!!!!!! OMG !!!!! OMG!!!! OMG!!!!!! DONT YOU KNOW THE QURAN IS THE DIVINE IMMUTABLE LAW OF GOD!!!!!!!! o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o oPut away your hysterics chap wink
This is the crux of the matter the rest is extraneous words like big bucket of KFC... -)Jaxal is QURAN the DIVINE IMMUTABLE LAW of GOD? or is it something else for you?
Answer this question all in good time wink
If you can grasp this then you might understand...Regards,
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mquran are you able to grasp anything or you deliberately trying, as they say 'take the p---'
Lets give it one last try and if this exchange fails, i bid you adieu with peace. how about that?
I dont know what you have been reading or if you had bothered to read any of my posts. This is exactly the point i have been making. We need laws to govern any given societywhich bit of this have you not understood from my previous posts
Good. Im just defining certain things. Thanks.
If you had been on planet earth then you would have read that if anyone disobeys laws then they should be punished
if someone commits arson what evidence is required and what penalities should be available This is one of my recent post, did you bother reading it. Arson, Penalties Which bit of arson and penalties did you not understand that led to your question if people disobey the laws, should they be let off?Excellent, I'm glad you agree
If you dont think there is compulsion in following laws where you live and decide to break them then you are likely end up in a place where they will give you accomodation, free food- it is usually called prsion or a secure psychiatric unit.
murder is ok because the murder cannot be compelled to follow the laws.
Why do you keep repeating this. I have answerd you so many times. In a society that I live and want to live has and will have rules, I have given you umpteenth examples, those that break those rules will be punished accordingly.Excellent. Now the question, WHY is it ok to compel others to follow your law? Please read the operative word...WHY is it ok if they don't believe in it? Remember, in a democracy, FREEDOM is paramount. FREEDOM.
Lets now focus on your questions.
Who and how in your society or country is going to determine at what speed vehicles should be driven?
The people appointed by the messenger , people who are experts in the field as determined by the messenger.
We will continue this discussion when you address my above question, inshaa Allah.
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Dear mquran and others,
Yes, I agree, there has to be a leader in a community. However, the leader?s task is to ?serve? the community, not to ?rule? it.
Today?s leaders are ?ruling? not ?serving?. ?
The basic laws, and codes of conduct, are laid down by the one and only ?ruler?, or what we call God.
All chosen leaders are responsible for implementing these laws.In a community there may be a number of chosen ?servants? who will be responsible for working out detailed regulations under the laws of the one and only ruler.
If one single person in a community is suffering without his/her own wrongdoing, the chosen ?servants? are not doing their jobs, and should be responsible for correcting this. shock
Regulations have to follow the development in the community, and always be for the benefit for each individual.A speed limit for traffic was mentioned, which is one example of this constant need to update present rules and regulations.
Today we have research going into details of what is safe and what is not, when talking about speed of traffic, but it is calculated with a certain rate of accidents in order to keep traffic going as fast as possible, even a certain loss of lives are calculated in. Leaders deciding on regulations based on this are not doing their job. Killing of humans are accepted! ?Today we buy insurances and feel relaxed. As long as we follow the traffic rules it does not matter if we should happen to kill somebody, insurance will cover it......., not our fault....... mrgreen
If we build houses for somebody and these houses collapse, insurance will cover it......., not our fault....... mrgreen
And so on, and so forth.None in today?s community take responsibility for our actions, from the chosen leaders to Tom, Dick and Harry.
Today?s system of law is dealing with punishment as the main reaction to crimes or criminal neglects. This is not the way of islam.
Just think for a second, how much good does it do us if a thief cleans out all the possessions we have in a house, and is sentenced to a certain jail-term?
Here again, insurance comes in as a must, in order to secure ourselves. Actually thieves are counting on it. We feel more relaxed and do not take the precautions we otherwise might have taken to prevent things from being stolen. Thieves also feel relaxed, if caught probably get free lodging for a certain period. ?A house burns down, well, not our fault, it was something wrong with the wiring.......
Insurance again......So, I believe we need guidance to run a community, but we do not find a detailed guidance in any book, whether from God or humans. However, we may find some pointers here and there, and we find basic laws in the words of God and in the other signs of God, in the world around us.
We are then free to use our minds to work out details. If we want a system that is in conformity with the rest of the Universe we work out details within the frame of God?s system. Otherwise we go on doing as we normally do, think we know best.Regards
Ali Omar
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Peace,
If there were more messengers to come, Why would Allah mention prophet Mohammed as the seal of the prophets in 3340.
I have provided a link below to a discussion that was going on a few months ago about the meaning of khatem. I think you should take a look at it.
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3000
If u know better, please feel free to share ur knowledge.
Take the example of the firawn where the doubt of a rasool being sent after a previous one lurked . I believe there will be more rusul/envoys even though there may be a cessation or abatement .
Joe
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Take the example of the firawn where the doubt of a rasool being sent after a previous one lurked . I believe there will be more rusul/envoys even though there may be a cessation or abatement .
GOOD POINT. Fatratin min ar-rasool ! I totally missed that. Well done, Joe
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Salaam Ali Omar,
Yes, I agree, there has to be a leader in a community. However, the leaders task is to serve the community, not to rule it.
The leader serves Allah by helping the community to actualise its potential through righteous rule, in my view.
The basic laws, and codes of conduct, are laid down by the one and only ruler, or what we call God.
All chosen leaders are responsible for implementing these lawsYes, these 'ahkaam' or laws of Allah are implemented by his servants. For example, as his servant now, even without any power in the land, we try to help people. However, certain ahkaam necessitate acquistion of power first, like the zinaa punishement.
So, I believe we need guidance to run a community, but we do not find a detailed guidance in any book, whether from God or humans. However, we may find some pointers here and there, and we find basic laws in the words of God and in the other signs of God, in the world around us
The thing is, hukmullah, God's laws penetrates all aspects of our existence. For example, while God didn't tell you how fast you can drive, He did tell you the value of human life. So you can adjust accordingly. That's on a personal level. When the Islamic dominion comes, the rasul will allocate responsibility to believers according to thier level of expertise.
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SaLaM LT
LT you old chap, unlike you, I have the COURTESY to give a direct simple answer. So, you answer my question. and i will GLADLY answer yours.... old chap wink
If you are able to answer my question then you able to answer your own question. The crux of the matter is DIVINE IMMUTABLE LAWS vs MAN MADE LAWS IN A DEMOCRACY. In a democratic government people don't look in the scripture for laws - they create the laws themselves to regulate how the society operates. You can't have DEMOCRACY and DIVINE IMMUTABLE LAWS. You have to choose one Jaxal. And you have chosen to ignore the DIVINE DECREES...
Regards,
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And you have chosen to ignore the fact that Quran , a changed and altered book on which you want to base the running of the whole country, which is not possible in the first place, , is NOT a guide to how to run a country. So boo hoo.. old chap wink
Jaxal you either accept QURAN AS DIVINE IMMUTABLE LAW OF GOD or you don't. But soon as you do then it will be INCOMPATIBLE with DEMOCRACY...because DEMOCRACY allows the people to make the laws and change them...that is the crux of the matter.
We got there in the end...didn't we Jaxal wink
Regards,
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