Quran & Democracy: Are they compatible? by M. Asadi
-
Loooooll LT. It amuses me how you the question eludes ur grasp D . So one more time, with a lemon twise ... old chap wink
A stranger comes to you and saying " hey old chap.... If i asked you to run a country, will you look in the Quran on a 'How to run a country for Dummies?' ?". What will be your reply? i will even provide you with choices
1] Yes. Quran is ALL i need to run a country
2] No . Quran has nothing to do with running a country
3] KFC ROCKS!!!!!!
4] Meh.... i dont know
5] Get away from me or ill beat you with my walking stick!! x
6] WHAT!!!!!! OMG !!!!! OMG!!!! OMG!!!!!! DONT YOU KNOW THE QURAN IS THE DIVINE IMMUTABLE LAW OF GOD!!!!!!!! o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o -
Loooooll LT. It amuses me how you the question eludes ur grasp D . So one more time, with a lemon twise ... old chap wink
A stranger comes to you and saying " hey old chap.... If i asked you to run a country, will you look in the Quran on a 'How to run a country for Dummies?' ?". What will be your reply? i will even provide you with choices
1] Yes. Quran is ALL i need to run a country
2] No . Quran has nothing to do with running a country
3] KFC ROCKS!!!!!!
4] Meh.... i dont know
5] Get away from me or ill beat you with my walking stick!! x
6] WHAT!!!!!! OMG !!!!! OMG!!!! OMG!!!!!! DONT YOU KNOW THE QURAN IS THE DIVINE IMMUTABLE LAW OF GOD!!!!!!!! o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o oPut away your hysterics chap wink
This is the crux of the matter the rest is extraneous words like big bucket of KFC... -)Jaxal is QURAN the DIVINE IMMUTABLE LAW of GOD? or is it something else for you?
Answer this question all in good time wink
If you can grasp this then you might understand...Regards,
-
mquran are you able to grasp anything or you deliberately trying, as they say 'take the p---'
Lets give it one last try and if this exchange fails, i bid you adieu with peace. how about that?
I dont know what you have been reading or if you had bothered to read any of my posts. This is exactly the point i have been making. We need laws to govern any given societywhich bit of this have you not understood from my previous posts
Good. Im just defining certain things. Thanks.
If you had been on planet earth then you would have read that if anyone disobeys laws then they should be punished
if someone commits arson what evidence is required and what penalities should be available This is one of my recent post, did you bother reading it. Arson, Penalties Which bit of arson and penalties did you not understand that led to your question if people disobey the laws, should they be let off?Excellent, I'm glad you agree
If you dont think there is compulsion in following laws where you live and decide to break them then you are likely end up in a place where they will give you accomodation, free food- it is usually called prsion or a secure psychiatric unit.
murder is ok because the murder cannot be compelled to follow the laws.
Why do you keep repeating this. I have answerd you so many times. In a society that I live and want to live has and will have rules, I have given you umpteenth examples, those that break those rules will be punished accordingly.Excellent. Now the question, WHY is it ok to compel others to follow your law? Please read the operative word...WHY is it ok if they don't believe in it? Remember, in a democracy, FREEDOM is paramount. FREEDOM.
Lets now focus on your questions.
Who and how in your society or country is going to determine at what speed vehicles should be driven?
The people appointed by the messenger , people who are experts in the field as determined by the messenger.
We will continue this discussion when you address my above question, inshaa Allah.
-
Dear mquran and others,
Yes, I agree, there has to be a leader in a community. However, the leader?s task is to ?serve? the community, not to ?rule? it.
Today?s leaders are ?ruling? not ?serving?. ?
The basic laws, and codes of conduct, are laid down by the one and only ?ruler?, or what we call God.
All chosen leaders are responsible for implementing these laws.In a community there may be a number of chosen ?servants? who will be responsible for working out detailed regulations under the laws of the one and only ruler.
If one single person in a community is suffering without his/her own wrongdoing, the chosen ?servants? are not doing their jobs, and should be responsible for correcting this. shock
Regulations have to follow the development in the community, and always be for the benefit for each individual.A speed limit for traffic was mentioned, which is one example of this constant need to update present rules and regulations.
Today we have research going into details of what is safe and what is not, when talking about speed of traffic, but it is calculated with a certain rate of accidents in order to keep traffic going as fast as possible, even a certain loss of lives are calculated in. Leaders deciding on regulations based on this are not doing their job. Killing of humans are accepted! ?Today we buy insurances and feel relaxed. As long as we follow the traffic rules it does not matter if we should happen to kill somebody, insurance will cover it......., not our fault....... mrgreen
If we build houses for somebody and these houses collapse, insurance will cover it......., not our fault....... mrgreen
And so on, and so forth.None in today?s community take responsibility for our actions, from the chosen leaders to Tom, Dick and Harry.
Today?s system of law is dealing with punishment as the main reaction to crimes or criminal neglects. This is not the way of islam.
Just think for a second, how much good does it do us if a thief cleans out all the possessions we have in a house, and is sentenced to a certain jail-term?
Here again, insurance comes in as a must, in order to secure ourselves. Actually thieves are counting on it. We feel more relaxed and do not take the precautions we otherwise might have taken to prevent things from being stolen. Thieves also feel relaxed, if caught probably get free lodging for a certain period. ?A house burns down, well, not our fault, it was something wrong with the wiring.......
Insurance again......So, I believe we need guidance to run a community, but we do not find a detailed guidance in any book, whether from God or humans. However, we may find some pointers here and there, and we find basic laws in the words of God and in the other signs of God, in the world around us.
We are then free to use our minds to work out details. If we want a system that is in conformity with the rest of the Universe we work out details within the frame of God?s system. Otherwise we go on doing as we normally do, think we know best.Regards
Ali Omar
-
Peace,
If there were more messengers to come, Why would Allah mention prophet Mohammed as the seal of the prophets in 3340.
I have provided a link below to a discussion that was going on a few months ago about the meaning of khatem. I think you should take a look at it.
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3000
If u know better, please feel free to share ur knowledge.
Take the example of the firawn where the doubt of a rasool being sent after a previous one lurked . I believe there will be more rusul/envoys even though there may be a cessation or abatement .
Joe
-
Take the example of the firawn where the doubt of a rasool being sent after a previous one lurked . I believe there will be more rusul/envoys even though there may be a cessation or abatement .
GOOD POINT. Fatratin min ar-rasool ! I totally missed that. Well done, Joe
-
Salaam Ali Omar,
Yes, I agree, there has to be a leader in a community. However, the leaders task is to serve the community, not to rule it.
The leader serves Allah by helping the community to actualise its potential through righteous rule, in my view.
The basic laws, and codes of conduct, are laid down by the one and only ruler, or what we call God.
All chosen leaders are responsible for implementing these lawsYes, these 'ahkaam' or laws of Allah are implemented by his servants. For example, as his servant now, even without any power in the land, we try to help people. However, certain ahkaam necessitate acquistion of power first, like the zinaa punishement.
So, I believe we need guidance to run a community, but we do not find a detailed guidance in any book, whether from God or humans. However, we may find some pointers here and there, and we find basic laws in the words of God and in the other signs of God, in the world around us
The thing is, hukmullah, God's laws penetrates all aspects of our existence. For example, while God didn't tell you how fast you can drive, He did tell you the value of human life. So you can adjust accordingly. That's on a personal level. When the Islamic dominion comes, the rasul will allocate responsibility to believers according to thier level of expertise.
-
SaLaM LT
LT you old chap, unlike you, I have the COURTESY to give a direct simple answer. So, you answer my question. and i will GLADLY answer yours.... old chap wink
If you are able to answer my question then you able to answer your own question. The crux of the matter is DIVINE IMMUTABLE LAWS vs MAN MADE LAWS IN A DEMOCRACY. In a democratic government people don't look in the scripture for laws - they create the laws themselves to regulate how the society operates. You can't have DEMOCRACY and DIVINE IMMUTABLE LAWS. You have to choose one Jaxal. And you have chosen to ignore the DIVINE DECREES...
Regards,
-
-
And you have chosen to ignore the fact that Quran , a changed and altered book on which you want to base the running of the whole country, which is not possible in the first place, , is NOT a guide to how to run a country. So boo hoo.. old chap wink
Jaxal you either accept QURAN AS DIVINE IMMUTABLE LAW OF GOD or you don't. But soon as you do then it will be INCOMPATIBLE with DEMOCRACY...because DEMOCRACY allows the people to make the laws and change them...that is the crux of the matter.
We got there in the end...didn't we Jaxal wink
Regards,
-
-
We got there in the end...didn't we Jaxal
No we didnt
Oh well....I blame myself for trying so hard wink
Regards,
-
Hi Nabi,
Thanks for the Link.
are there any verses in Quran where God mentions future prophets arriving after prophet Mohammed?
since there is a debate on 'seal of the prophets' of 3340, where else according to u are future prophets mentioned in Quran?
God surely wouldnt have missed mentioning if thats the case.Take the example of the firawn where the doubt of a rasool being sent after a previous one lurked . I believe there will be more rusul/envoys even though there may be a cessation or abatement .
4026 Said Pharaoh "Leave me to slay Moses; and let him call on his Lord! What I fear is lest he should change your religion, or lest he should cause mischief to appear in the land!"
4027 Moses said "I have indeed called upon my Lord and your Lord (for protection) from every arrogant one who believes not in the Day of Account!"
4028 A believer, a man from among the people of Pharaoh, who had concealed his faith, said "Will ye slay a man because he says, 'My Lord is Allah.?- when he has indeed come to you with Clear (Signs) from your Lord? and if he be a liar, on him is (the sin of) his lie but, if he is telling the Truth, then will fall on you something of the (calamity) of which he warns you Truly Allah guides not one who transgresses and lies!
4029 "O my People! Yours is the dominion this day Ye have the upper hand in the land but who will help us from the Punishment of Allah, should it befall us?" Pharaoh said "I but point out to you that which I see (myself); Nor do I guide you but to the Path of Right!"
4030 Then said the man who believed "O my people! Truly I do fear for you something like the Day (of disaster) of the Confederates (in sin)!-
4031 "Something like the fate of the People of Noah, the 'Ad, and the Thamud, and those who came after them but Allah never wishes injustice to his Servants.
4032 "And O my people! I fear for you a Day when there will be Mutual calling (and wailing),-
4033 "A Day when ye shall turn your backs and flee No defender shall ye have from Allah. Any whom Allah leaves to stray, there is none to guide...
4034 "And to you there came Joseph in times gone by, with Clear Signs, but ye ceased not to doubt of the (Mission) for which he had come At length, when he died, ye said 'No apostle will Allah send after him.' thus doth Allah leave to stray such as transgress and live in doubt,-IN 434 Allah is clearly telling about the history before Prophet Mohammed.
518 (Both) the Jews and the Christians say "We are sons of Allah, and his beloved." Say "Why then doth He punish you for your sins? Nay, ye are but men,- of the men he hath created He forgiveth whom He pleaseth, and He punisheth whom He pleaseth and to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between and unto Him is the final goal (of all)"
519 O People of the Book! Now hath come unto you, making (things) clear unto you, Our Messenger, after the break in (the series of) our apostles, lest ye should say "There came unto us no bringer of glad tidings and no warner (from evil)" But now hath come unto you a bringer of glad tidings and a warner (from evil). And Allah hath power over all things.
520 Remember Moses said to his people "O my people! Call in remembrance the favour of Allah unto you, when He produced prophets among you, made you kings, and gave you what He had not given to any other among the peoples.In these verses, Allah is referring to the past and to the people during the time of Prophet Mohammed.
where is the mention of future prophets?
And if there were more prophets to come to govern mankind from time to time, where are the prophets who must have come from 570AD to 2005?
-
HI Mquran, Nabi,
The thing is, hukmullah, God's laws penetrates all aspects of our existence. For example, while God didn't tell you how fast you can drive, He did tell you the value of human life. So you can adjust accordingly.
Thats what we are all doing. Thats what democracy is all about or atleast meant to be. We take guidance from Quran. we take the principles of righteousness, justice, honesty, sincereity, humility etc from God's message and implement these with a set of rules that can safeguard these values to the best in today's society.
Quran is not meant to spoon feed us about everything. its meant to guide.
And Quran is not an instruction manual of 'how to run a country' or how to ride a car' etc. In Quran, Allah tells us to strive for knowledge, wisdom and values and uphold them.
And Mquran, no offence meant, but Quran is not a dictionary to find definitions of all words. this is not the purpose of Quran. Its there to guide us.
230 Behold, thy Lord said to the angels "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said "I know what ye know not."
So, u see Allah doesnt think Man is only capable of Mischief. we are capable of goodness and wisdom too and we need to strive for it.
And Lotetree, Nobody is refusing divine law. we are keen to safeguard the values with a system that would best uphold the values. and man made laws are not necessarily antonyms for divine laws. and if u look at man made laws, they are not made by mere whim and fancy. There are cohort studies etc and these laws are updated to yield the best outcome. so, they are always reviewed over and over.
Jaxal, I wont say Quran is corrupted. No proof of that.And God has said He would safeguard the Quran Himself. agreed, interpretations have varied.
But yeah, It sure is not an instruction manual, nor is it a dictionary etc. Its meant to make people think and do the right thing.
-
peace
And Quran is not an instruction manual of 'how to run a country' or how to ride a car' etc. In Quran, Allah tells us to strive for knowledge, wisdom and values and uphold them.
peace to you too
The thing is, hukmullah, God's laws penetrates all aspects of our existence. For example, while God didn't tell you how fast you can drive, He did tell you the value of human life. So you can adjust accordingly.
And what exactly is accordingly and who decides this?
That's on a personal level. When the Islamic dominion comes, the rasul will allocate responsibility to believers according to thier level of expertise
What happens until your rasul comes i.e what about today!
-
salaam
And if there were more prophets to come to govern mankind from time to time, where are the prophets who must have come from 570AD to 2005
List of names would be sufficent!
-
Peace,
are there any verses in Quran where God mentions future prophets arriving after prophet Mohammed?
You mean prophecies? I doubt it. Allah sends rusul and nabiyeen and never says that He will stop. Tis' the sunnah of Allah.
since there is a debate on 'seal of the prophets' of 3340, where else according to u are future prophets mentioned in Quran?
Again, none that I know of.
God surely wouldnt have missed mentioning if thats the case.
Of course not. Allah has already told us that He sends nabiyeen and rusul.
IN 434 Allah is clearly telling about the history before Prophet Mohammed.
Ah, I think I see where your interpretations may lie. Thus you shall not understand where I am coming from. Read the narrative of Moses if you must, all of it. The lessons for our guidance will be given therein. Maybe you will be able to grasp these lessons and then see where I have come from.
If you take it as a historical account than think of the significance of the belief of the rejectors and how that should waylay you from acting upon the same mistakes.
where is the mention of future prophets?
Again, Allah has said that He sends nabiyeen and rusul. Allah never says that this will stop.
Joe
-
Salaamun alaikum PM,
IN 434 Allah is clearly telling about the history before Prophet Mohammed
PM, how is al-quraan to be a book of guidance if its about stories of the past? Al-quraan categorically denies that its tales of the ancients (83/17) and that it a mentioning of us (21/10). The sunna of Allah doesn't change and so , despite people saying there are no more messengers, messengers will keep coming.
And if there were more prophets to come to govern mankind from time to time, where are the prophets who must have come from 570AD to 2005?
This is going into the field of history which can be distorted. We are to focus on our situation, here and now.
Thats what we are all doing. Thats what democracy is all about or atleast meant to be. We take guidance from Quran. we take the principles of righteousness, justice, honesty, sincereity, humility etc from God's message and implement these with a set of rules that can safeguard these values to the best in today's society.
In a democracy, tacit approval must be obtained from the majority. Would you care to seek the approval of humankind before serving Allah, brother?
And Quran is not an instruction manual of 'how to run a country' or how to ride a car' etc. In Quran, Allah tells us to strive for knowledge, wisdom and values and uphold them.
al-quraan may not tell you what to call an instution, but certainly it tells you the ahkaam regarding institutions. For example, it tells you that the majority of people arent on sabeelilllah. Therefore, people who believe cannot trust them.
And Mquran, no offence meant, but Quran is not a dictionary to find definitions of all words. this is not the purpose of Quran. Its there to guide
Can you please tell me how al-quraan guides you if you don't know the meaning of its words? Al-quraan is in a set language and also offers principles of interpretation. And no offense taken.
-
Stillearning, if you'll answer this question first, I will address your point. I believe in reciprocity in discussions. Thank you
Excellent. Now the question, WHY is it ok to compel others to follow your law? Please read the operative word...WHY is it ok if they don't believe in it? Remember, in a democracy, FREEDOM is paramount. FREEDOM.