Iblis?

SwedenMajidah

Salaam all,

I must admit that i always want to find the easy way out and found the logic in things because for me God is logic.

With this i mean that it can be as simple as God want to show us the good and bad so we can learn from that and take heed.

Why we must rabbling over and over who is malaika and who is iblis!?

I don't find any logic in that when so many already have pointed out the main points.

Quran is a guideline for humans and it must in a simple way reach out to us so we can take it to our hearts.

My understanding is that God is showing us the caractor of goodness in the malaika and the badness in Iblis.

We cannot see non of them with our eyes so they are in the spirit worlds and therefore we must guard our God given brain so we can uphold the truth from our Lord and be saved.

Peace Sis Majidah

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Marie,

If you read 530-31 together, keeping in mind that verses are man made, it is the very same as the other occurence, except that it further stregthens that there was none other who disobeyed except iblis by saying "all of them" followed by "EXCEPT".

(530-31) So the angels prostrated themselves, all of them together except iblis, he refused to be among those who prostrated themselves.

There is no need for EXCEPT is iblis is from a different group. If iblis is not part of the malaika, then EXCEPT is gramatically incorrect.

savage_carrot

Peace sis marie,

From the Reading, we can say both mala-ikat and iblis were ordered to submit to Adam. The question is were they ordered to submit together or separately?
If iblis was one of the mala-ikat, "all of almala-ikat together" in 1530 doesn't make sence, imho. "all together" refers only to the mala-ikat and makes "almala-ikat" and "Iblis" two distinct entities.

The question underlined in your quote above does not make sense to me. The reason being is that in all the verses the malaika are told to sjd and iblis refuses. This is consistent. So why would someone ask, well was it together or seperate?

It does make sense when "all together" is taken because of the exception. We are given the examples of such exceptions in the reading, one of bro Kyle's favourites, man is in loss except such that have faith. Exceptions used in language also come across rather frequently in daily life. There is no confusion in, "they all did except iblis"...it's a perfectly legitimate sentence that is sound in all aspects.

In the same way, the God ordered the mala-ikat and Iblis to submit to Adam, Iblis refused to submit that doesn't make him one of the angel.

In the example you gave, we know what the earth and sky are. There is no confusion as to what is the sky? Is it part of the earth? It is clearly defined. Same way, we have malaika and the address to ONLY malaika. There is no verse where we read, come all malaika and Iblis or come all malaika and all jinn...One group is called to do the deed and that group is the malaika and iblis is part of it making him a malaika as well. It is simple and logical and there is no confusion.

Of course though, God does know best

marie

Peace Kyle

There is no need for EXCEPT is iblis is from a different group. If iblis is not part of the malaika, then EXCEPT is gramatically incorrect.

Except is not the only meaning of "illa", it can be understood as but according the context.
Let us suppose that "illa" means only except, one can read 234 in this way

34.And We said to the Angels Submit to Adam, so they submitted except Iblis (who was ordered to submit to Adam 712) refused (to submit) and was proud, and he was one of the disbelievers.

Both angel and iblis are commanded to submit, all of the angels together submit and iblis didn't, where is the problem?

If Iblis is part part of the malaika, then why the God uses "together" in 1530 if one of the angel refused to submit. "all" would be sufficient according your reasonning.
imo, "together" mark the end of the first statement about the malaika and "illa" announces the begining of a new statement about Iblis.

marie

Salam nadia,

"they all did except iblis"

"All of them did except iblis" is not similar than "all of them together"did except iblis"

As I said to Kyle, if one of the angels didn't submit, then "together" doesn't make sense, the quote above would be more accurate.

From 712, we know indirectly that Iblis was ordered to submit (amartuka / I have ordered you.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Ahmed,

I dont think you remembered to comment on my statement that theword "jinn" means "hidden", and it describes the state of our inner faculties, which are "hidden". We read a chapter from the point of view of these "hidden beings", and it is stated that "there are from us those who are good and others on a different path", so we have the hidden "malaika" and the hidden "shateen".

The malaika(faculties of control) are there prostrating to the intellect(adam), but there is another faculty that is there to provide the testing. It is Desperation(from looking at life from the viewpoint of the physical, seperate experience). And this desperation(iblis) creates the rejecting thoughts/emotions (shayteen) which block our receptivity to God's inspiration.

Truth, this is very important because t is teachin s how our inner faculties work. There is nothing that is unimportant, the God does not deal in "idle talk".

Sorry bro, I just could not comperhend it that's all and wanted not to dispute it with you, the point is in many locations in the Quran especially on the Judjment day and after Satan was mentioned as a physical entity

Allah knows best

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Marie,

Except is not the only meaning of "illa", it can be understood as but according the context.

I dont see any differenc in using but or except, they say the same thing in the context of this verse.

Let us suppose that "illa" means only except, one can read 234 in this way

34.And We said to the Angels ?Submit to Adam,? so they submitted except Iblis (who was ordered to submit to Adam 712) refused (to submit) and was proud, and he was one of the disbelievers.

712 is there because iblis is a malaika and was commanded to prostrate.

Both angel and iblis are commanded to submit, all of the angels together submit and iblis didn't, where is the problem?

Yes, all of the malaika do prostrate, together(not one ...then a little while later another..), EXCEPT Iblis.

If Iblis is part part of the malaika, then why the God uses "together" in 1530 if one of the angel refused to submit. "all" would be sufficient according your reasonning.
imo, "together" mark the end of the first statement about the malaika and "illa" announces the begining of a new statement about Iblis.

But why start the next stetment with EXCEPT?

unknownuser

Peace Ahmed,

Satan was mentioned as a physical entity

Could you possibly run us through your reasoning and how you came to this conclusion?

Peace

unknownuser

Peace

Marie is 100% right "Ila" can mean "BUT" and is very common in arabic and does not always mean an excpetion from the same group as it can also means an exception from another group, I'm sure we will find examples in the Quran that will confirm that

but again regardless of maries strong observation, I can't see any problem regarding the story of Adam, unless we want to make it a problem

here the points of interests and I'm sure we all will agree on it

Iblis was ordered to prostrate.

My say While the Quran did not say that in the verses of the prostrating order "Malaika only mentioned", it was mentioned in another verse that Allah ordered Iblis to prostrate, I posted this verse earlier, this may indicate that Iblis was given the order to prostrate after the Angels or in another later event but Allah did not mention that, rather He mentioned the outcome after he refused to prostrate

Iblis was a Jinn

My say, the Quran clearly confirmed that, and it never refered to Iblis as an angel

The Jinn were created from fire and we don't know what the angels are created from, but to assume from fire as well will be a great conjesture

My say, Iblis confirmed that he was created from fire, which should lead to confirm the fact the Quran mentioned that he was one of the Jinn, because the Quran also confirmed that the Jinn were created from fire

The Angels can't disobey any order, they fear Allah and they are not arrogant as the Quran confirmed to us

My say, Iblis went the other way in all three

a) he disobeyed Allah
b) he didn't fear Allah
c) he showed great arrogance based on his substance of creation (fire) compared to the human creation substance (clay)

it should also be noted that Iblis was not jealouse of the Angels "nothing mentioned that indicated this" and I'm sure that someone like Iblis should be, if he was jealouse from Adam, or at least he may have recoginsed that the angels always disobey Allah and never have freewill as the Quran told us about the angels, while he had a freewill

Allah knows best

peace

marie

I dont see any differenc in using but or except, they say the same thing in the context of this verse.

We do not perceive the language in the same way

unknownuser

Peace Ahmed,

Satan was mentioned as a physical entity

Could you possibly run us through your reasoning and how you came to this conclusion?

Peace

this will take me some time bro, but I will look for the verses today sometime, I'm just about to go to work, it is 820 AM sydney time

the evidences from the Quran will be conclusive

cheers

savage_carrot

Peace marie,

As I said to Kyle, if one of the angels didn't submit, then "together" doesn't make sense, the quote above would be more accurate.

You asked earlier, did they prostrate together or seperately. The above tells you exactly when they all did. The group malaika were asked and iblis did not prostrate. Thus all of the malaika prostrated together except Iblis. You are basing them to be a seperate group other than iblis purely because the word together is used. That does not change anything at all. It's like saying, "3C" all said good morning together to the teacher except iblis, therefore iblis is not part of "3C". (In this scenario, like iblis', we know that only "3C" was asked to say good morning to the teacher, before anyone gets any ideas). I hope you see how it does not make any difference.

Yes, all of the malaika do prostrate, together(not one ...then a little while later another..), EXCEPT Iblis

Exactly.

The fact of the matter is that we knew about the words used the last time we discussed this and it does not change a thing. It's not different or maybe I should say there is nothing new in the fact that together is used. I agree with kyle.

wildguest1956

I dont see any differenc in using but or except, they say the same thing in the context of this verse.

We do not perceive the language in the same way

"Except" is one of the meanings of "But".
http//dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=10515&dict=CALD

wildguest1956

Peace

Marie is 100% right "Ila" can mean "BUT" and is very common in arabic and does not always mean an excpetion from the same group as it can also means an exception from another group, I'm sure we will find examples in the Quran that will confirm that

I would be interested you quote some of them.

Iblis was ordered to prostrate.

OK

Iblis was a Jinn

Let's assume it.
Saying Iblis is a Jinn is like saying nothing if you don't explain what a jinn is.

The Jinn were created from fire and we don't know what the angels are created from, but to assume from fire as well will be a great conjesture

Maybe.

The Angels can't disobey any order, they fear Allah and they are not arrogant as the Quran confirmed to us

OK.
So, if a malaika disobeys to allah, he will be degraded, and he will not be called "malaika" anymore. Right ?

c) he showed great arrogance based on his substance of creation (fire) compared to the human creation substance (clay)

How do you understand the quranic sentence "Iblis was created from fire" ?
Is it physical, or symbolic ?

Peace

unknownuser

I would be interested you quote some of them.

I will try but I can't promise

OK

ok

Let's assume it.
Saying Iblis is a Jinn is like saying nothing if you don't explain what a jinn is.

sure, you can assume it, but I don't assume it, I'm 150% convinced, wait for my long reply and then you might re-think your assumption that he is a malaika, but I'm not going to explain what the Jinn is, I will let the Quran do it

Maybe.

again, maybe for you, but for me it is certain, bro, i don't manipulate any arabic words in the Quran, especially I'm fluent in arabic, I really careless about all the dictioaries links and stuff posted here I don't read it, as I don't need it, I'm fluent on both arabic and the arabic grammar, and this is personal for me not trying to prove that I'm really

after my long commet later today you may think your short and briefed statement "maybe", but my commnet is not going to be short rather all the evidences to prove my understanding

OK.

ok

So, if a malaika disobeys to allah, he will be degraded, and he will not be called "malaika" anymore. Right ?

no, he will be punished rather, he was never called explicitly a malak but he was called explicitly a Jinn in THE CLEAR ARABIC QURAN, if you have any different understanding then we may have to agree to disagree

you see your mixup is coming from why Satan was up there, and this will be answered in my long comment

How do you understand the quranic sentence "Iblis was created from fire" ?

I understand it as I understood that humans were created from clay, I see fire a physical thing exactly as clay but some may disagree with that, but fine it is all relative, thanks to Einstien

Is it physical, or symbolic ?
Peace

100% Physical and my long comment will provide the conclusive evidences

peace

mquran

Salaam Truth,

I don't believe in miracles as supernatural events that break the laws of the universe. The reading is not a miracle in this sense. In fact as you would be aware, one does not find the word miracle in the reading.

Correct. The word 'mujiza' isn't in al-quraan. However, I used the word 'miracle' in sense that you said 'The reasons for this exhortation ie. to contemplate the reading is to enable them to acknowledge that the God is its author and to open the mind to its message, and take heed of it. 482, 4724, 3829 . I can't agree with this. I think the exhortation intends for us to understand the application of al-quraan as well. It's not possible to acknowledge God as its author without entering the process.

So how about explaining how the nature of Iblis helps - ie. what is the applicational side of Iblis being a jinn or angel or both in the real world? How does the resolution of this point help me?

Firstly, you should know that every human being is Adam (7/11) and therefore has the potential of having sajda from the forces of universe, al-malaaika. However, one particular force isn't in sajda to Adam and that is iblees which means 'one wrapped in grief or hopelessness'. That's the application in summary.

truth

Firstly, you should know that every human being is Adam (7/11) and therefore has the potential of having sajda from the forces of universe, al-malaaika. However, one particular force isn't in sajda to Adam and that is iblees which means 'one wrapped in grief or hopelessness'. That's the application in summary.

Peace mquran,

This is beginning to sound esoteric to me.

The forces of the universe that I know of are 4 in number - the strong and weak nuclear forces, electromagnetism, and gravitation. All are absolute in their requirement - even a small change in the properties of any one of them makes the entire universe unworkable as we know it.

I still think the applicational side doesn't help one practically. I'm thinking of 6151-153.

wildguest1956

Let's assume it.
Saying Iblis is a Jinn is like saying nothing if you don't explain what a jinn is.

sure, you can assume it, but I don't assume it, I'm 150% convinced, wait for my long reply and then you might re-think your assumption that he is a malaika, but I'm not going to explain what the Jinn is, I will let the Quran do it

OK.
I'm looking forward to your explanation.

Maybe.

again, maybe for you, but for me it is certain, bro, i don't manipulate any arabic words in the Quran, especially I'm fluent in arabic, I really careless about all the dictioaries links and stuff posted here I don't read it, as I don't need it, I'm fluent on both arabic and the arabic grammar, and this is personal for me not trying to prove that I'm really

What you are fluently speaking is the arabic language of today, it does not necessary match the Arabic language of 1400 years ago.

See this interesting quotation from Mawdudi

But as centuries passed, the real meanings of these terms gradually under went subtle changes so that, in course of time, instead of the full connotations, they came to stand for only very limited meanings or restricted and rather vague concepts. One reason was the gradual decline of interest in the Arabic language and the other that the words ceased to have the same meanings for the later generations of Muslims that they had for the original Arabs to whom the Qur'an had been revealed. It is for these two reasons that in the more recent lexicons and commentaries many of the Qur'anic words began to be explained not by their original sense but by what they had by then come to stand for, e.g., The word ilah, as used in respect of others than God, came to be synonymous with idols or gods; The word rabb came to mean only someone who brings up or rears or feeds another or provides for his worldly needs ; 'Ibadah began to be understood as the performance of a set of rituals of "worship" ; Deen began to mean a religion, or belief in some precepts ; and the word Taghoot began to be translated to mean an idol or the Devil.
http//www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Books/M_four_term/t4_intro.htm

So, if a malaika disobeys to allah, he will be degraded, and he will not be called "malaika" anymore. Right ?

no, he will be punished rather

Yes, Iblis has been punished. He has been disgraced and banished, and he will be sent to hell .

, he was never called explicitly a malak but he was called explicitly a Jinn in THE CLEAR ARABIC QURAN, if you have any different understanding then we may have to agree to disagree

No, in the THE CLEAR ARABIC QURAN, Iblis is said to be mina aljinni. Min can mean "among", but it can as well mean "in the same nature as".
So, there is also a possibility Iblis to be said to be mina aljinni, not because he is a jinn, but because he shares some common point with the jinn.

How do you understand the quranic sentence "Iblis was created from fire" ?

I understand it as I understood that humans were created from clay, I see fire a physical thing exactly as clay but some may disagree with that, but fine it is all relative, thanks to Einstien

Is it physical, or symbolic ?
Peace

100% Physical and my long comment will provide the conclusive evidences

peace

I understand the 2 sentences as been symbolic.
Why should we exclude it be symbolic ?

Peace

mquran

Peace to you truth,

This is beginning to sound esoteric to me

Esoteric or exoteric are constructs from a human diction and therefore thier values would also be constructs. So I cannot agree with you there but I respect your view.

The forces of the universe that I know of are 4 in number - the strong and weak nuclear forces, electromagnetism, and gravitation. All are absolute in their requirement - even a small change in the properties of any one of them makes the entire universe unworkable as we know it.

Ok. Im talking about intelligent forces though. Forces which communicated with Allah.

I still think the applicational side doesn't help one practically. I'm thinking of 6151-153.

Well if it doesn't help you, what can anyone say? It helps me so I'm inclined to believe the subject is worth my time and effort. Thanks.

marie

Peace Nadia, all,

You said that only malaika were asked to submit. I'm not sure 100% because from 712, we know indirectly that Iblis was ordered to submit

He said What has prevented you from submitting when I have ordered you? He said I am far better than him, You created me from fire and created him from clay!
Qala ma manaAAaka allatasjuda ith amartuka qala ana khayrun minhukhalaqtanee min narin wakhalaqtahu min teenin

I don't believe on the theory which claims that Iblis lost his statute of malak, there is zero evidence from the Reading which support it. If I'm wrong, please do bring your evidence.

Both Adam and Iblis disobeyed the God's command, their punishment is they were driven out....Adam keeps his statute of human, Iblis was of jinn (1850) before he transgressed the God's command. There is any evidence that Iblis lost his statute of jinn after he transgressed and after he was driven out aljanna (20123). Correct me if I'm mistaken, the progeny of Iblis is the tribe of Jinn, in the same way we are the progeny of Adam.

I think the verse 230 can help us to get a better understanding

230 And when thy Lord said to the angels, I am going to place a ruler
in the earth, they said Wilt Thou place in it such as make mischief in it
and shed blood? And we celebrate Thy praise and extol Thy holiness. He said Surely I know what you know not.

Let us suppose that Iblis was "one of the angel". I find the last part of 230 ambiguous (red text). the malaika know about the bad behaviour of adam on earth, How did they pretend to be a best ruler instead of Adam whereas one of them was a transgressor, disbelivers, proud?