Iblis?
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Peace Ahmed,
Satan was mentioned as a physical entity
Could you possibly run us through your reasoning and how you came to this conclusion?
Peace
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Peace
Marie is 100% right "Ila" can mean "BUT" and is very common in arabic and does not always mean an excpetion from the same group as it can also means an exception from another group, I'm sure we will find examples in the Quran that will confirm that
but again regardless of maries strong observation, I can't see any problem regarding the story of Adam, unless we want to make it a problem
here the points of interests and I'm sure we all will agree on it
- Iblis was ordered to prostrate.
My say While the Quran did not say that in the verses of the prostrating order "Malaika only mentioned", it was mentioned in another verse that Allah ordered Iblis to prostrate, I posted this verse earlier, this may indicate that Iblis was given the order to prostrate after the Angels or in another later event but Allah did not mention that, rather He mentioned the outcome after he refused to prostrate
- Iblis was a Jinn
My say, the Quran clearly confirmed that, and it never refered to Iblis as an angel
- The Jinn were created from fire and we don't know what the angels are created from, but to assume from fire as well will be a great conjesture
My say, Iblis confirmed that he was created from fire, which should lead to confirm the fact the Quran mentioned that he was one of the Jinn, because the Quran also confirmed that the Jinn were created from fire
- The Angels can't disobey any order, they fear Allah and they are not arrogant as the Quran confirmed to us
My say, Iblis went the other way in all three
a) he disobeyed Allah
b) he didn't fear Allah
c) he showed great arrogance based on his substance of creation (fire) compared to the human creation substance (clay)it should also be noted that Iblis was not jealouse of the Angels "nothing mentioned that indicated this" and I'm sure that someone like Iblis should be, if he was jealouse from Adam, or at least he may have recoginsed that the angels always disobey Allah and never have freewill as the Quran told us about the angels, while he had a freewill
Allah knows best
peace
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Peace Ahmed,
Satan was mentioned as a physical entity
Could you possibly run us through your reasoning and how you came to this conclusion?
Peace
this will take me some time bro, but I will look for the verses today sometime, I'm just about to go to work, it is 820 AM sydney time
the evidences from the Quran will be conclusive
cheers
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Peace marie,
As I said to Kyle, if one of the angels didn't submit, then "together" doesn't make sense, the quote above would be more accurate.
You asked earlier, did they prostrate together or seperately. The above tells you exactly when they all did. The group malaika were asked and iblis did not prostrate. Thus all of the malaika prostrated together except Iblis. You are basing them to be a seperate group other than iblis purely because the word together is used. That does not change anything at all. It's like saying, "3C" all said good morning together to the teacher except iblis, therefore iblis is not part of "3C". (In this scenario, like iblis', we know that only "3C" was asked to say good morning to the teacher, before anyone gets any ideas). I hope you see how it does not make any difference.
Yes, all of the malaika do prostrate, together(not one ...then a little while later another..), EXCEPT Iblis
Exactly.
The fact of the matter is that we knew about the words used the last time we discussed this and it does not change a thing. It's not different or maybe I should say there is nothing new in the fact that together is used. I agree with kyle.
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I dont see any differenc in using but or except, they say the same thing in the context of this verse.
We do not perceive the language in the same way
"Except" is one of the meanings of "But".
http//dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=10515&dict=CALD -
Peace
Marie is 100% right "Ila" can mean "BUT" and is very common in arabic and does not always mean an excpetion from the same group as it can also means an exception from another group, I'm sure we will find examples in the Quran that will confirm that
I would be interested you quote some of them.
- Iblis was ordered to prostrate.
OK
- Iblis was a Jinn
Let's assume it.
Saying Iblis is a Jinn is like saying nothing if you don't explain what a jinn is.- The Jinn were created from fire and we don't know what the angels are created from, but to assume from fire as well will be a great conjesture
Maybe.
- The Angels can't disobey any order, they fear Allah and they are not arrogant as the Quran confirmed to us
OK.
So, if a malaika disobeys to allah, he will be degraded, and he will not be called "malaika" anymore. Right ?c) he showed great arrogance based on his substance of creation (fire) compared to the human creation substance (clay)
How do you understand the quranic sentence "Iblis was created from fire" ?
Is it physical, or symbolic ?Peace
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I would be interested you quote some of them.
I will try but I can't promise
OK
ok
Let's assume it.
Saying Iblis is a Jinn is like saying nothing if you don't explain what a jinn is.sure, you can assume it, but I don't assume it, I'm 150% convinced, wait for my long reply and then you might re-think your assumption that he is a malaika, but I'm not going to explain what the Jinn is, I will let the Quran do it
Maybe.
again, maybe for you, but for me it is certain, bro, i don't manipulate any arabic words in the Quran, especially I'm fluent in arabic, I really careless about all the dictioaries links and stuff posted here I don't read it, as I don't need it, I'm fluent on both arabic and the arabic grammar, and this is personal for me not trying to prove that I'm really
after my long commet later today you may think your short and briefed statement "maybe", but my commnet is not going to be short rather all the evidences to prove my understanding
OK.
ok
So, if a malaika disobeys to allah, he will be degraded, and he will not be called "malaika" anymore. Right ?
no, he will be punished rather, he was never called explicitly a malak but he was called explicitly a Jinn in THE CLEAR ARABIC QURAN, if you have any different understanding then we may have to agree to disagree
you see your mixup is coming from why Satan was up there, and this will be answered in my long comment
How do you understand the quranic sentence "Iblis was created from fire" ?
I understand it as I understood that humans were created from clay, I see fire a physical thing exactly as clay but some may disagree with that, but fine it is all relative, thanks to Einstien
Is it physical, or symbolic ?
Peace100% Physical and my long comment will provide the conclusive evidences
peace
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Salaam Truth,
I don't believe in miracles as supernatural events that break the laws of the universe. The reading is not a miracle in this sense. In fact as you would be aware, one does not find the word miracle in the reading.
Correct. The word 'mujiza' isn't in al-quraan. However, I used the word 'miracle' in sense that you said 'The reasons for this exhortation ie. to contemplate the reading is to enable them to acknowledge that the God is its author and to open the mind to its message, and take heed of it. 482, 4724, 3829 . I can't agree with this. I think the exhortation intends for us to understand the application of al-quraan as well. It's not possible to acknowledge God as its author without entering the process.
So how about explaining how the nature of Iblis helps - ie. what is the applicational side of Iblis being a jinn or angel or both in the real world? How does the resolution of this point help me?
Firstly, you should know that every human being is Adam (7/11) and therefore has the potential of having sajda from the forces of universe, al-malaaika. However, one particular force isn't in sajda to Adam and that is iblees which means 'one wrapped in grief or hopelessness'. That's the application in summary.
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Firstly, you should know that every human being is Adam (7/11) and therefore has the potential of having sajda from the forces of universe, al-malaaika. However, one particular force isn't in sajda to Adam and that is iblees which means 'one wrapped in grief or hopelessness'. That's the application in summary.
Peace mquran,
This is beginning to sound esoteric to me.
The forces of the universe that I know of are 4 in number - the strong and weak nuclear forces, electromagnetism, and gravitation. All are absolute in their requirement - even a small change in the properties of any one of them makes the entire universe unworkable as we know it.
I still think the applicational side doesn't help one practically. I'm thinking of 6151-153.
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Let's assume it.
Saying Iblis is a Jinn is like saying nothing if you don't explain what a jinn is.sure, you can assume it, but I don't assume it, I'm 150% convinced, wait for my long reply and then you might re-think your assumption that he is a malaika, but I'm not going to explain what the Jinn is, I will let the Quran do it
OK.
I'm looking forward to your explanation.Maybe.
again, maybe for you, but for me it is certain, bro, i don't manipulate any arabic words in the Quran, especially I'm fluent in arabic, I really careless about all the dictioaries links and stuff posted here I don't read it, as I don't need it, I'm fluent on both arabic and the arabic grammar, and this is personal for me not trying to prove that I'm really
What you are fluently speaking is the arabic language of today, it does not necessary match the Arabic language of 1400 years ago.
See this interesting quotation from Mawdudi
But as centuries passed, the real meanings of these terms gradually under went subtle changes so that, in course of time, instead of the full connotations, they came to stand for only very limited meanings or restricted and rather vague concepts. One reason was the gradual decline of interest in the Arabic language and the other that the words ceased to have the same meanings for the later generations of Muslims that they had for the original Arabs to whom the Qur'an had been revealed. It is for these two reasons that in the more recent lexicons and commentaries many of the Qur'anic words began to be explained not by their original sense but by what they had by then come to stand for, e.g., The word ilah, as used in respect of others than God, came to be synonymous with idols or gods; The word rabb came to mean only someone who brings up or rears or feeds another or provides for his worldly needs ; 'Ibadah began to be understood as the performance of a set of rituals of "worship" ; Deen began to mean a religion, or belief in some precepts ; and the word Taghoot began to be translated to mean an idol or the Devil.
http//www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Books/M_four_term/t4_intro.htmSo, if a malaika disobeys to allah, he will be degraded, and he will not be called "malaika" anymore. Right ?
no, he will be punished rather
Yes, Iblis has been punished. He has been disgraced and banished, and he will be sent to hell .
, he was never called explicitly a malak but he was called explicitly a Jinn in THE CLEAR ARABIC QURAN, if you have any different understanding then we may have to agree to disagree
No, in the THE CLEAR ARABIC QURAN, Iblis is said to be mina aljinni. Min can mean "among", but it can as well mean "in the same nature as".
So, there is also a possibility Iblis to be said to be mina aljinni, not because he is a jinn, but because he shares some common point with the jinn.How do you understand the quranic sentence "Iblis was created from fire" ?
I understand it as I understood that humans were created from clay, I see fire a physical thing exactly as clay but some may disagree with that, but fine it is all relative, thanks to Einstien
Is it physical, or symbolic ?
Peace100% Physical and my long comment will provide the conclusive evidences
peace
I understand the 2 sentences as been symbolic.
Why should we exclude it be symbolic ?Peace
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Peace to you truth,
This is beginning to sound esoteric to me
Esoteric or exoteric are constructs from a human diction and therefore thier values would also be constructs. So I cannot agree with you there but I respect your view.
The forces of the universe that I know of are 4 in number - the strong and weak nuclear forces, electromagnetism, and gravitation. All are absolute in their requirement - even a small change in the properties of any one of them makes the entire universe unworkable as we know it.
Ok. Im talking about intelligent forces though. Forces which communicated with Allah.
I still think the applicational side doesn't help one practically. I'm thinking of 6151-153.
Well if it doesn't help you, what can anyone say? It helps me so I'm inclined to believe the subject is worth my time and effort. Thanks.
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Peace Nadia, all,
You said that only malaika were asked to submit. I'm not sure 100% because from 712, we know indirectly that Iblis was ordered to submit
- He said What has prevented you from submitting when I have ordered you? He said I am far better than him, You created me from fire and created him from clay!
Qala ma manaAAaka allatasjuda ith amartuka qala ana khayrun minhukhalaqtanee min narin wakhalaqtahu min teenin
I don't believe on the theory which claims that Iblis lost his statute of malak, there is zero evidence from the Reading which support it. If I'm wrong, please do bring your evidence.
Both Adam and Iblis disobeyed the God's command, their punishment is they were driven out....Adam keeps his statute of human, Iblis was of jinn (1850) before he transgressed the God's command. There is any evidence that Iblis lost his statute of jinn after he transgressed and after he was driven out aljanna (20123). Correct me if I'm mistaken, the progeny of Iblis is the tribe of Jinn, in the same way we are the progeny of Adam.
I think the verse 230 can help us to get a better understanding
230 And when thy Lord said to the angels, I am going to place a ruler
in the earth, they said Wilt Thou place in it such as make mischief in it
and shed blood? And we celebrate Thy praise and extol Thy holiness. He said Surely I know what you know not.Let us suppose that Iblis was "one of the angel". I find the last part of 230 ambiguous (red text). the malaika know about the bad behaviour of adam on earth, How did they pretend to be a best ruler instead of Adam whereas one of them was a transgressor, disbelivers, proud?
- He said What has prevented you from submitting when I have ordered you? He said I am far better than him, You created me from fire and created him from clay!
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Peace marie,
You said that only malaika were asked to submit. I'm not sure 100% because from 712, we know indirectly that Iblis was ordered to submit
I don't believe on the theory which claims that Iblis lost his statute of malak, there is zero evidence from the Reading which support it. If I'm wrong, please do bring your evidence.We know that the address was only given to malaika, verse after verse consistently. There is no group called iblis or a seperate address for iblis.
If the address is only for malaika and iblis is called jinn after he rejects, the logical conclusion is that malaika is a status coupled with the verse 713 "get down from this, it is not for you to be arrogant in it". This is evidence, but everyone looks at it the way they want to.their punishment is they were driven out....Adam keeps his statute of human, Iblis was of jinn (1850)
What do you mean by using statute in the above quote (it means codified law?)? Their punishment is that they were also degraded...and coupled with the above evidence, it makes perfect sense that iblis loses his status of mlk after refusing and thus is called not by his previous status but by what he is. That doesn't change. I believe that this was a test for the malaika. There is also a connection between the jinn and the malaika (7216, 117, 3975).
Correct me if I'm mistaken, the progeny of Iblis is the tribe of Jinn, in the same way we are the progeny of Adam.
Thus the connection in the verses that I have listed above, and if they redeem themselves, they will be closer to the status of mlk that they lost.
Let us suppose that Iblis was "one of the angel". I find the last part of 230 ambiguous (red text). the malaika know about the bad behaviour of adam on earth, How did they pretend to be a best ruler instead of Adam whereas one of them was a transgressor, disbelivers, proud?
It was a test, it's readily apparent that is was a test for the malaika and those that harboured doubts came forward and that who rebelled we know of.
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Peace to Ash Shura, JM and all
This is a long comment, so sorry in advance, I?m not a fan of posting just the verse numbers and leave it to the reader to find it themselves, it will be a bit distracting as well will slow the reading, also I developed the habit of posting the Arabic verses as well, the reason is I only refer to the Arabic words and I careless for any translation that may cause any confusion
The subject we have in hand is very complicated, we can summarize it into the followings points
- The creation of Jinn
- The nature of Iblis when he was created
- Why Iblis was up there
- The nature of Iblis while he was up there
- The creation of Adam
- The conflict between Iblis and Adam
- The outcome of the conflict
The Arabic word Jinn is a common word to describe any creature who manages to do impossible/hard things, for example in the Arab culture when they see a child doing amazing things the most common word to describe the boy is as follow ?Walad Zai Al Jinn?, i.e. ?A Child is like a Jinn?
We were told that Allah created Humans on Earth as well He created the Jinns for the same exact reason which was to worship and serve Allah
56- ?And I have not created the jinn and the men except that they should serve Me?
57- ?I do not desire from them any sustenance and I do not desire that they should feed Me.?
The Quran ; 5156-57](56)
(57)-> Clear as light that Allah created the Jinns and mankind. sure He created all things like the Angels, the heaven and earth, but the point is, these two creatures (Jinns and Humans) ?and only them? share a common fact, BOTH OF THE JINN AND HUMAN RACES WERE CREATED TO SERVE ALLAH.
-> The Arabic word is clear ??, which means ?Created? ?past tense?, you can also note that the Jinns came before Mankind, possibly because they were created before humans?, well let?s assume this for the time being and see if a conflict will arise as we read all the verses I included in my comment.
-> It is also worth to note in verse 5157 that Allah is referring to the Jinns and Humans by using the word ?Them? and the word ?They?
-> From the above we can conclude that the Jinns are a physical entity that are created exactly as humans are created by Allah, if we assume that Jinns mean a symbol of evil, and I concede that Allah will also create or give us the idea about any symbol He wishes, how come Allah requests from the Symbol of Evil to serve Him as stated in verse 5156?, impossible request I guess, or a non sense request I should say?, well that is why I have to conclude that the Jinns are a physical creature, as well I have to conclude that they have freewill like humans, this is evident from the reason of creation which is to ?serve Allah?
-> We can also have a wild guess from verse 5156 that the Jinns were created before Humans, and we will see later if this wild guess conflicts with any of the Quran verses.
Working on our assumption that the Jinns being created on Earth before humans to serve and worship Allah, we can read a verse that supports this assumption
?Such are they against whom is proved the sentence among the previous generations of Jinns and men, that have passed away; for they will be (utterly) lost.?
The Quran ; 4618](1
-> We can clearly read in verse 4618 that Allah is telling us that His Judgment on the previous GENERATIONS OF JINNS AND MEN will be justified
-> The above verse can?t be talking about a symbol of Evil as previous generations who will earn Allah punishment and will be the losers, another strong evidence that support our first conclusion that the Jinns are a physical creature.
-> We can also read that the Jinns generations preceded the humans generations ?in the order of words? within the sentence which is talking about previous generations as a example for us to pay attention, this note will add some weight to our assumption that the Jinns were created before Humans.
The same message of the previous generation of the Jinns and Humans is found in another location in the Quran
?He will say Enter into fire among the nations that have passed away before you from among jinn and men; whenever a nation shall enter, it shall curse its sister, until when they have all come up with one another into it; the last of them shall say with regard to the foremost of them Our Lord! these led us astray therefore give them a double chastisement of the fire. He will say Every one shall have double but you do not know?
The Quran ; 738](3
-> Note the words order ?Jinns and Men?
Let?s move on to the part that will sound like a story tale, firstly what I?m just about to say is not my invention, it is from a book that I read with my brother when we were about 18 years old, the book was over 1000 pages as far as I remember, and it was tackling the issue of Allah plan with the Jinns and Humans, the authors of the book were a bunch of very old Arab and religious writers who resorted to hundreds of very ancient historical books to come up with their conclusion that the Jinns inhibited earth before humans, they failed to know by how long but that was not relevant to their study of Allah?s plan with us, which is already exposed to a degree in His Quran and previous holy book, they just wanted to make up a complete story by gathering all information they can find from everywhere then cross referencing with each other, then eliminate what could not make any sense.
We read in the Quran when Allah told the Malaika that he will create Humans ON EARTH, they wondered and asked Allah and between themselves, How Allah will create another creatures who will cause mischief and shed blood on earth
?And when your Lord said to the Malaika, I am going to place in the earth a khalifa, they said What! wilt Thou place in it such as shall make mischief in it and shed blood, and we celebrate Thy praise and extol Thy holiness? He said Surely I know what you do not know?
The Quran ; 230](30)
-> How the Malaika knew that the humans will make mischief and shed blood on earth? the Malaika can not know anything on their own unless they saw it with their own vision of course
?They said Glory be to Thee! we have no knowledge but that which Thou hast taught us; surely Thou art the Knowing, the Wise.?
The Quran ; 232](32)
-> Was their knowledge of shedding blood and causing mischief on earth a result of what they saw from the previous generations of Jinns when they inhibited earth freely and were requested to SERVE ALLAH as humans will be requested?, this is not a wild guess to assume as such, if we consider the verses I posted above about the previous generations of Jinns who were concluded as a creature created by Allah. If the Malaika did not see the mischief or blood shedding on earth, then their knowledge must came form Allah, i.e. it happened and He told them about it, because they can?t know anything on their own with their own admission. I lean to believe the first possibility that the Malaika saw the shedding of blood and the mischief on earth with their own vision, knowing that the Malaika are Allah?s soldiers in the universe and they were created to force the nature laws and Allah justice during this life and the hereafter, they just have no freewill to cause any mischief on earth.
-> We concluded that the Jinns were created to serve Allah and they must be of a physical nature, Allah has told us He created something called Jinns, He also told us the He created them from fire
26- ?We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape;?
27- ?And the Jinn race, We had created before, from the fire of a scorching wind?
The Quran ; 1526-27](26)
(27)-> We can read that the humans were created from mud moulded into shape and the Jinns from fire of scorching wind, BUT THE MOST IMPORTANT NOTE IS THE ARABIC WORD ? ?, which was translated as ?BEFORE?, I.E. WE HAVE TO CONCLUDE THAT THE JINNS WERE CREATED BEFORE HUMANS AS SEEN IN VERSE 1527
Now, we know that they were created before us and we know that they were created to worship and serve Allah and we know that they were created from fire, but are all Jinns bad?
The misconception about the Jinns that they all are very bad, while the truth is there are many of them who are good Jinns, in fact there is a whole sura in the Quran that is called the Jinns, let?s read a few verses from it
1- ?Say It has been revealed to me that a company of Jinns listened (to the Qur'an). They said, 'We have really heard a wonderful Recital! ?
2- 'It gives guidance to the Right, and we have believed therein we shall not join (in worship) any (gods) with our Lord.?
3- 'And Exalted is the Majesty of our Lord He has taken neither a wife nor a son.?
4- ?'There were some foolish ones among us, who used to utter extravagant lies against Allah;?
5- 'But we do think that no man or spirit should say aught that untrue against Allah.?
6- 'True, there were persons among mankind who took shelter with persons among the Jinns, but they increased them in folly.?
7- 'And they (came to) think as ye thought, that Allah would not raise up any one (to Judgment). ?
8- 'And we pried into the secrets of heaven; but we found it filled with stern guards and flaming fires. ?
9- 'We used, indeed, to sit there in (hidden) stations, to (steal) a hearing; but any who listen now will find a flaming fire watching him in ambush.?
10- 'And we understand not whether ill is intended to those on earth, or whether their Lord (really) intends to guide them to right conduct.
11- 'There are among us some that are righteous, and some the contrary we follow divergent paths. ?
12 'But we think that we can by no means frustrate Allah throughout the earth, nor can we frustrate Him by flight. ?
13- 'And as for us, since we have listened to the Guidance, we have accepted it and any who believes in his Lord has no fear, either of a short (account) or of any injustice.
14- 'Amongst us are some that submit their wills (to Allah), and some that swerve from justice. Now those who submit their wills - they have sought out (the path) of right conduct ?
The Quran ; 721-14](1)
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(15)-> There will be no doubt after extracting the descriptions of the Jinns race from the above verses of surat Al Jinn that they are physical entity and for real, we can say the following about the Jinns
Verse 1 They hear and talk, and they even managed to recognise the wonderful Quran unlike our Sunni brothers and sisters
Verse 2 & 3 Some of them recognised the objective of the Quran then they declared their belief in Allah without committing Shirk, again unlike our Sunni brothers and sisters.
Verse 4 There are foolish Jinns who are Kafiroon , who used to utter extravagant lies against Allah;?
Verse 5 Some Jinns will realize, they should not say aught that untrue against Allah., amazingly some Sunni brothers do with their corrupt Hadith, the verse actually mentioned the humans as well that they should not utter extravagant lies against Allah
Verse 6 Some Humans may seek the help of some of the Jinns but the fact of the matter is the Jinns will increase them in folly.
Verse 8 & 9 They used to pried into the secrets of heaven; but not any more. Currently they will be ambushed if they try.
Verse 10- They don?t understand whether ill is intended to those on earth, or whether the Lord intends to guide them to right conduct.
-> Possibly they said the above in 7210 due to their own horrible experience which I might discuss here, I read in this huge book that when Allah created the Jinns on earth before us, they caused great mischief and they shed blood on earth, this is due to their amazing abilities which I will discuss later, but we know that they were requested to worship Allah and serve Him exactly like humans, but sure they didn?t and we know when the nations ignore Allah messages and warnings, what will happen to them,? we see it every day on earth through natural disasters and more, we also know from the Quran what Allah did to Noah people, Lut people, Aad, Thamoud and many other examples of previous arrogant generations who earned the severe punishment from Allah as documented in the Quran, and that is exactly what happened to the Jinns, however before the punishment happened there was a very good example of a believing Jinn, it was Iblis who worshiped Allah and served Him on earth like no one ever did in this life, but there was a problem, Iblis was a hypocrite, he thought he can fool Allah and show belief while inside him he was a clear cut arrogant and a hypocrite, it seems Iblis belief was so flawed that he did not realize that Allah will know what is inside him, the story goes as follow Allah lifted Iblis to the heaven as a reward, Allah was actually planing for Iblis the big surprise, some suggested that Iblis was given Malaika qualities, like the good looks for example, others also suggested that Iblis was given a job as a paradise keeper with the Paradise Angel keepers, in any case Iblis was made to think that he was an Angel and it was earned by his fake belief, then the order of punishment to the rest of the Jinns race was issued, Allah sent the Angels to earth to punish them and it was said that Iblis joined them, the task was to imprison all the Jinns under the earth crust or let?s just say inside the earth, they can live there don?t worry, aren?t they created from fire?
The Angels and Iblis then went back to the heaven unaware of Allah plan of the next Khalifa on earth.
But please before you write off the obove possibility consider the ex knowledge of the Angels of the mischief and the blood shedding that was due to what I wrote above, in fact in verse 7212, this assumption may be confirmed
Verse 11 There are among them some that are righteous, and some the contrary they follow divergent paths like humans exactly.
Verse 12 The information in this verse is very important here is the verse again 'But we think that we can by no means frustrate Allah throughout the earth, nor can we frustrate Him by flight. ?, it is like simulating exactly what they did on earth when they were khalifa and living freely on top of it, the righteous Jinns realized that they can not frustrate Allah on earth neither they can escape Him, of course we may understand that the majority of them thought that they can frustrate Allah on earth as well He will not be able to get them because of their amazing abilities that He inserted in them, very dumb indeed, it seems also the story of imprisoning them inside earth as a punishment has some integrity due to the fact the punishment was imprisoning them while they thought they can escape Allah.
Verse 13 Again some of them declare their acceptance to the guidance sent by their lord in the wonderful Quran
Verse 14 and those Jinn believers can not be true believers with out submitting to Allah after they believed in Him, so those Jinn believers declared their Islam ?Submission to Allah?
From the above it is just impossible to believe that the Jinns are not a physical entity, but there is a bit of extra info that I know about the Jinns
a) A good Jinn is called Jinn (Saleh) like human exactly
b) A bad Jinn is called Shaitan
c) A Jinn who reach great knowledge in what they can do is called ?Ifrit?, we can also call a young child ?Ifrit? if he/she manages to do some amazing things, very common indeedConsequently when the Quran mentions the word Shaitan we should know that we are talking about a bad Jinn, the word Jinns is a general word to describe all of them good or bad, a very knowledgable Jinn is called Ifrit as I mentioned above. The Quran actually told us that the Jinns can do amazing things, we know so far that they used to go up to the sky to spy on the secrets of the heaven and this was stopped and if they try to do it now they will be ambushed by a meteor, this on its own is enough to prove their amazing abilities however we can also read the following in the Quran
?And there were gathered together unto Solomon his armies of the jinn and humankind, and of the birds, and they were set in battle order;? ?
The Quran ; 2717](17)
-> The Quran is informing us that Prophet Solomon has armies of Jinns. Consequently they must been physical entities and for real. The Quran actually has given us some examples on what these armies of Jinns were doing to King Soloman
39- ?Said an 'Ifrit, of the Jinns "I will bring it to thee before thou rise from thy council indeed I have full strength for the purpose, and may be trusted."?
40- ?Said one who had knowledge of the Book "I will bring it to thee within the twinkling of an eye!" Then when (Solomon) saw it placed firmly before him, he said "This is by the Grace of my Lord!- to test me whether I am grateful or ungrateful! and if any is grateful, truly his gratitude is (a gain) for his own soul; but if any is ungrateful, truly my Lord is Free of all Needs, Supreme in Honour !" ?
The Quran ; 2739-40](39)
(40)-> Actually what the Jinn suggested to do in verse 2740 is a new science technology called Teleporting. Can you see that that Jinn was described as ? had knowledge of the Book??
Why Iblis is a Jinn?
This is not an assumption, the Quran told us as such, the Arabic word ?Min? means ?from the same entity?, we have a lot of examples in the Quran, like 28 and many others, for anyone to come and say ?Min? means similar is very strange indeed
?Behold! We said to the angels, "Bow down to Adam" They bowed down except Iblis. He was one of the Jinns, and he broke the Command of his Lord. Will ye then take him and his progeny as protectors rather than Me? And they are enemies to you! Evil would be the exchange for the wrong-doers!?
(50)
-> You can?t get clearer than this ?Min? means literally ?From them?, used many times in the Quran, but can you see the underline words?, it says ? He was one of the Jinns, and he broke the Command of his Lord?
I.E. WHEN HE BROKE THE COMMAND OF THE LORD HE WAS ONE OF THE JINNS, the words ? , and he broke the Command of his Lord? came after ? He was one of the Jinns? and between them ?And? in Arabic represented by the first letter ?Fa? in the word ? ? means ?and he broke the Command?, this should kill the argument of the ones who think Iblis was not a Jinn at the time of prostrating.
The arrogance which Iblis showed CAN NOT BE COMMITTED BY THE MALAIKA
?(Allah) said "What prevented thee from prostrating when I commanded thee?" He said "I am better than he Thou didst create me from fire, and him from clay."
(12)
But we know that The Jinns were created from Fire according to 1527, so what else you reckon Iblis was?, well, we have 4 clues
A) He was one of the Jinns (1850)
B) He was created from Fire (712)
C) The Jinn were created from fire (1527)
D) Iblis has freewill (712)
E) Only the Jinns and Humans have Freewill (5156)Would Iblis be a Jinn?, sound like a reasonable answer to me. Well, according to clear Arabic Quran, it seems it is a very logical answer as well.
The arrogance of Iblis ?the Jinn?, was told in many other locations
39- (Iblis) said "O my Lord! because Thou hast put me in the wrong, I will make (wrong) fair-seeming to them on the earth, and I will put them all in the wrong,-
40- "Except Thy servants among them, sincere and purified (by Thy Grace)."
41 (Allah) said "This (way of My sincere servants) is indeed a way that leads straight to Me.
42 "For over My servants no authority shalt thou have, except such as put themselves in the wrong and follow thee."(39)
(40)
(41)
(42)-> Would the above dialogue between Allah and Iblis be a symbol?
-> Well, if it is, then the author of the Quran will look really silly, it is like he is directing a movie that does not exist, while he is going in great details and in many locations telling us things that never happened, this is a joke if considered, let?s see how the story was told again and again and again
75- (Allah) said "O Iblis! What prevents thee from prostrating thyself to one whom I have created with my hands? Art thou haughty? Or art thou one of the high (and mighty) ones?"
76- (Iblis) said "I am better than he thou createdst me from fire, and him thou createdst from clay."
77- (Allah) said "Then get thee out from here for thou art rejected, accursed.
78- "And My curse shall be on thee till the Day of Judgment."
79- (Iblis) said "O my Lord! Give me then respite till the Day the (dead) are raised."
80- (Allah) said "Respite then is granted thee-
81- "Till the Day of the Time Appointed."
82- (Iblis) said "Then, by Thy power, I will put them all in the wrong,-
83- "Except Thy Servants amongst them, sincere and purified (by Thy Grace)."
84- (Allah) said "Then it is just and fitting- and I say what is just and fitting-
85- "That I will certainly fill Hell with thee and those that follow thee,- every one."
(75)
(76)
(77)
(7
(79)
(80)
(81)
(82)
(83)
(84)
(85)-> Can the above intense dialogue be a fake?, I mean never happened? Allah is just teaching us a lesson about the Symbolic Evil?
Well, if this is the case then the following verses from the above dialogue will not make any sense
Verse 77- ?(Allah) said "Then get thee out from here for thou art rejected, accursed.?, from where the symbolic evil will get out exactly?
Verse 78- "And My curse shall be on thee till the Day of Judgment.", How Allah will curse a symbol till the Day of Judgment?
Vesre 84 & 85 ? ?(Allah) said "Then it is just and fitting- and I say what is just and fitting-? , "That I will certainly fill Hell with thee and those that follow thee,- every one.", How Allah is telling us the Judgment will be just and fitting, then He tells us that He will fill Hell with Iblis and with any human who will follow Him, How Allah will punish Iblis ?the symbol? in Hell?
You see Iblis was and is a Jinn, he has freewill and he is our biggest enemy, unfortunately the serious promise Iblis took ? (Iblis) said "Then, by Thy power, I will put them all in the wrong,-? is very true
20- And on them did Iblis prove true his idea, and they followed him, all but a party that believed.
21- But he had no authority over them,- except that We might test the man who believes in the Hereafter from him who is in doubt concerning it and thy Lord doth watch over all things.
(20)
(21)There is also a few verses in the Quran that confirm that the Jinns are physical entity
?Say "If the whole of mankind and Jinns were to gather together to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they backed up each other with help and support.?
(8
-> Another challenge above to both Jinns and Humans
?O ye assembly of Jinns and men! If it be ye can pass beyond the zones of the heavens and the earth, pass ye! not without authority shall ye be able to pass!?
(33)
-> And another challenge to both.
"O ye assembly of Jinns and men! came there not unto you messengers from amongst you, setting forth unto you My signs, and warning you of the meeting of this Day of yours?" They will say "We bear witness against ourselves." It was the life of this world that deceived them. So against themselves will they bear witness that they rejected Faith.?
(130)
-> It seems prophets were sent to the Jinns as well from the above verse. Well, we know that some of the Jinn listened to the Quran and believed in it and they uphold it unlike the Sunni brothers and sisters.
?Many are the Jinns and men we have made for Hell They have hearts wherewith they understand not, eyes wherewith they see not, and ears wherewith they hear not. They are like cattle,- nay more misguided for they are heedless (of warning).?
(179)
-> It seems from the above verse that the Jinns have hearts, eyes and ears, as well Hell will be filled by both Jinns and Humans
?And the Unbelievers will say "Our Lord! Show us those, among Jinns and men, who misled us We shall crush them beneath our feet, so that they become the vilest (before all).?
(29)
-> The Jinns and Humans who will be the resident of Hell will ask Allah to show them those among Jinns and Men who mislead them sure to take their revenge by crushing them beneath their feet, as if it will do relief their agony, they are still dumb I guess.
To be continued....
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The rest of the above comment
?And the Unbelievers will say "Our Lord! Show us those, among Jinns and men, who misled us We shall crush them beneath our feet, so that they become the vilest (before all).?
(29)
-> The Jinns and Humans who will be the resident of Hell will ask Allah to show them those among Jinns and Men who mislead them sure to take their revenge by crushing them beneath their feet, as if it will do relief their agony, they are still dumb I guess.
?O ye Children of Adam! Let not Satan seduce you, in the same manner as He got your parents out of the Garden, stripping them of their raiment, to expose their shame for he and his tribe watch you from a position where ye cannot see them We made the evil ones friends (only) to those without faith.?
(27)
-> This is also an important verse, Allah made us not to be able to see the Jinns while they can see us. That does not mean The Jinns are better than us, in fact Iblis were ordered to prostrate to us, i.e. we are in better level than the Jinns, it is just a condition by The All Mighty Allah for the test in this life, and He does what He wants as He said about Himself in many locations in the Quran.
?And Satan will say when the matter is decided "It was Allah Who gave you a promise of Truth I too promised, but I failed in my promise to you. I had no authority over you except to call you but ye listened to me then reproach not me, but reproach your own souls. I cannot listen to your cries, nor can ye listen to mine. I reject your former act in associating me with Allah. For wrong-doers there must be a grievous penalty.?
(22)
-> And finally in the day of Judgment and after all matters are decided by Allah, Iblis will say ? It was Allah Who gave you a promise of Truth I too promised, but I failed in my promise to you. I had no authority over you except to call you but ye listened to me then reproach not me, but reproach your own souls. I cannot listen to your cries, nor can ye listen to mine. I reject your former act in associating me with Allah. For wrong-doers there must be a grievous penalty.?, another proof that Iblis is a physical entity.
From all the above we can conclude the following
- Jinns were created before Humans
- Jinns inhibited earth before Humans
- Jinns are created from Fire
- Iblis is created from Fire
- Iblis is a Jinn as the Quran explicitly stated as well he became a Shaitan when he disobeyed Allah, the Quran in numerous times referred to Iblis as ?Shaitan? which is the opposite of the Angels
- Iblis was never called explicitly an angel, but he was up there for some reason when Adam was created
- Jinns and Humans have freewill and are required to use their freewill to worship Allah, NO OTHER CREATURE HAVE FREEWILL (INCLUDING THE ANGELS, THE HEAVEN AND EARTH)
The Angels were aware of the blood shedding and mischief that will be committed by humans before Adam was created while they can?t know the future - Iblis experienced his freewill and refused to prostrate while the Malaika did not have freewill and ALL OF THEM PROSTRATED, ALLAH EXPLICITLY STATED THAT THE MALAIKA NEVER DISOBAY ALLAH IN AT LEAST TWO LOCATIONS.
We can assume the following
- Iblis was raised to the heaven after Allah fooled him due to his hypocrisy in the belief.
- Allah made him think that he became an angel while his true nature of creation stayed the same, possibly Allah made Iblis just of a good look for example, but his soul stayed the same, that should be easy on Allah, isn?t it?. The malaika may also thought that Iblis became one of them, why not? It is quite possible if they have no knowledge except what Allah told them 232
Not too many assumptions for sure, just a couple, but that is far comprehendible than to think Iblis was a Malak all the way which contradicts the Quran big times, as well to think that his status has changed from a Jinn to a Malak then back to a Jinn is funny and does not make sense, it is like the Christian concept when they say god changes his status between three different entities each has its unique properties, simply if the Jinn becomes an Angel then the properties of the Angels should apply which is ?NO FREEWILL? ?MUST OBEY ALLAH?S COMMANDS? and ?FEAR ALLAH?, Iblis did not do any of the three and consequently he never been an angel, let?s just assume that he was made to think so, the strongest argument is in verse 1850
?He was one of the Jinns, and he broke the Command of his Lord.?, i.e. when Iblis broke the command to prostrate, he was one of the Jinns, very clear indeed.
Thanks for the reading and I?m sorry about the long comment
Allah knows best
Peace
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Peace Nadia,
There is no group called iblis or a seperate address for iblis.
I didn't say that Iblis is a group. Iblis like Adam is adressed in a singular form, contrary to the malaika which is the plural form of malak and were adressed by YOU (plural form).
Both Iblis and Adam have their own progeny.
Both are driven out aljannatCan you answer this question, we human being are the progeny of Adam,
who is the progeny of Iblis?Feel free to ignore 712 where the God stated clearly " He said What has prevented you from submitting when I have ordered you?
iblis is called jinn after he rejects
Disagree, please read the explanation bellown given by brother Ahmad Bahghat
I.E. WHEN HE BROKE THE COMMAND OF THE LORD HE WAS ONE OF THE JINNS, the words , and he broke the Command of his Lord came after He was one of the Jinns and between them And in Arabic represented by the first letter Fa in the word means and he broke the Command, this should kill the argument of the ones who think Iblis was not a Jinn at the time of prostrating.
What do you mean by using statute in the above quote (it means codified law?)?
I meant Adam remains a human being before and after he wan driven out aljannat.
There is also a connection between the jinn and the malaika (7216, 117, 3975).
Where is the connection between the jinn and the malaika from 7216, 117, 3975?
and if they redeem themselves, they will be closer to the status of mlk that they lost.
This is your own interpretation not based on the Reading, where do you come with this?
It is wrong to consider that Iblis becomes one of the jinn, whereas he is made with the same material than aljinn (fire) before he was ordered to submit to adam (712)
A) He was one of the Jinns (1850)
B) He was created from Fire (712)
C) The Jinn were created from fire (1527) -
Peace marie,
Can you answer this question, we human being are the progeny of Adam,
who is the progeny of Iblis?I have already answered and agreed with who the progeny of Iblis is in my previous post.
Feel free to ignore 712 where the God stated clearly " He said ?What has prevented you from submitting when I have ordered you??
God has stated clearly "we said to the malaika bow down". It does not suit to say I'm ignoring verses when the two have a logical connection.
Disagree, please read the explanation bellown given by brother Ahmad Bahghat
Iblis is a jinn. There is no denying that, why does everyone feel that being called a malaika means they suddenly transform and are not who they are? Or having to tell everyone iblis is a jinn ad nauseum? We all know he is a jinn. Malaika is a status for crying out loud.
Where is the connection between the jinn and the malaika from 7216, 117, 3975?
Why would the jinn be given abundant waters? What is the symbolic/literal connection between that and the other verses? There is more but it is irrelevant to the discussion of was iblis a jinn and/or malaika. The verses under discussion are enough to prove what he was/is. Thus, the inclusion of more food for thought for others, feel free to ignore it, it has no bearing on the salient points of what iblis is/was.
This is your own interpretation not based on the Reading, where do you come with this?
I have given you the verses. Likewise your interpretation does not take into account all the verses or their logical connections.
It is wrong to consider that Iblis becomes one of the jinn, whereas he is made with the same material than aljinn (fire) before he was ordered to submit to adam (712)
Eh? When did I say this?
In conclusion after reading the rest of the posts, I find it futile to continue the discussion when the pertinent points have been addressed time and time again, and the only 'new' thing brought to the forefront is 'together' and except means 'but' /
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Salam brother Ahmad Bahghat,
Thank you for your informative post.
Keep good work.
Regards
no worries sister, the problem it only took me 7 hours to write lol
now heading to bed it is 230 am sydney time
good night all