Quran & Democracy: Are they compatible? by M. Asadi
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Peace,
The whole discussion has been that Quran does not have rules to govern a given society
I'm going to assume that you are not too familiar with quranic concepts so it's application to the modern epoch has evaded you.
I believe al-quran does have laws to govern a society.
For example, one's power is to be cut for theft, we should have a strong standing military to avert threats, house arrest for certain obscenities, contracts, et cetera.
You wonder how the rasool could lead in the modern epoch, take the exemplars of David and Solomon.
Al-Kitaab is not stagnant in the flow of time. It means something even now. It will benefit those who know. Knowledge of alkitaab is a preriquisite to understanding .
Joe
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Salaam Stillearning,
I have reread the thread in its entirety and have formulated the issues which I think remains unresolved.
Im going to assume one thing that you're a person who believes AL-QURAAN IS YOUR CRITERIA. If im wrong in this assertion, then forget the points below and peace be upon you.
- You wrote Lottree I am in full agreement with you that democracy, without being perfect, is the best system to date
My question Is democracy better than God's system? If you still believe in al-quraan, prove this from al-quraan please?
- Do you believe that we should confer with people who DO NOT BELIEVE when operationalising God's laws? Yes or no please.
That's all for now.
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now this is what happens when a man doesnt use the so called 'common sense', as to understand why something was said in the first place.
What's the use of abandoning hadith when you take on other stories as your criteria for right and wrong?
If you can't produce evidence from al-quraan, then really what's the point of discussing anything?
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Salaamun alaikum to you,
I will ask one more time before abandoning this thread completely
PRODUCE EVIDENCE FROM AL-QURAAN PLEASE.
SOME VERSES FROM THE QURAN TO PROVE THAT IT SUPPORTS DEMOCRACY.
if you will not or cannot do this, ask yourselves why.
I'm not continuing this discussion without evidence from al-quraan. To me, al-quraan is how to run our lives. If you feel al-quraan isnt important enough to quote in this discussion, peace be upon you.
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Hi Mquran,
now this is what happens when a man doesnt use the so called 'common sense', as to understand why something was said in the first place.
What's the use of abandoning hadith when you take on other stories as your criteria for right and wrong?
yes, i believe all form of goodness, wisdom, knowledge contained within and outside Quran are from Allah.
Thats why reality, common sense matters to me coz i try not to be shortsighted.
Peace, anyways. u r free to believe as u understand is right, and so am i. -
Hi Nabi,
You're not getting me at all. You should be able to show that Allah said that he will stop sending rusul and nabiyeen and that there is a final one.
I get u, loud and clear.
Ok, Here it is. Allah acknowledges that He sent rusul/nabi's before prophet Mohammed. Infact, names are mentioned too.
Allah acknowledges that Prophet Mohammed is indeed His messenger.
But Allah doesnt mention any more of them. I would take seal of the prophet as the last prophet. And Allah also says He has 'perfected' the religion and completed His favour on mankind which would also imply that mankind is now expected to take up the responsibility of upholding Allah's values by themselves.If its not mentioned, are u saying u r making an Assumption urself, becoz u dont agree on 'seal of the prophets' or Allah saying he had perfected the religion and He had completed His favour etc.
It does not need to be mentioned that more rusul will come because Allah has not said that He is stopping them from coming.
Even if you take khatem to mean seal, you must understand that a seal can be popped. Again I ask that you read the link provided below.Thanks for the link. I did go through it. Yes, the seal can be popped up. Infact anything can happen. We do not know what is to to come in future. Only Allah knows coz its He who decides and makes things happen.
But yes, We are not expected to wait around for a messenger to govern people coz Allah didnt tell us to do so. So, We ought to go on and do our best to uphold the values of goodness, righteousness, justice etc which Allah has asked us to do.so, is 'more nabi/rusul to come' ur assumption?
In my opinion yes, there will be more.
so, u agree, its just ur opinion. and not a clear fact stated in the Quran. Peace!
Peace Nabi, i just dont see it.
You do not need to see it for it to be as such.
I know. Same goes for u.
Where exactly has He said that?That more nabis/rusuls will come from time to time after prophet Mohammed?
There are many ayatin stating this. Allah sends rusul and has not said that He will stop.
There are many ayatin stating that Allah sent rusul before Prophet Mohammed and that Prophet Mohammed was a messenger. there are no ayatin in Quran stating that Allah will keep sending messengers until the final day or infact after prophet Mohammed, to govern mankind.
What are u talking about?
I'm talking about how the rejectors believed that God will not send other rusul. From them you should derive a lesson.
Currently, I have no rusul to accept or reject so its pointless to say that I should accept a non exsistent Nabi.
If Allah does send a prophet today or in future, it will be very evident and the messenger will have clear signs.
Please describe to me these bayyinat you will know of? Could you explain your view on ayatin 2351-52?
2344 Then sent We our apostles in succession every time there came to a people their apostle, they accused him of falsehood so We made them follow each other (in punishment) We made them as a tale (that is told) So away with a people that will not believe!
2345 Then We sent Moses and his brother Aaron, with Our Signs and authority manifest,
2346 To Pharaoh and his Chiefs But these behaved insolently they were an arrogant people.
2347 They said "Shall we believe in two men like ourselves? And their people are subject to us!"
2348 So they accused them of falsehood, and they became of those who were destroyed.
2349 And We gave Moses the Book, in order that they might receive guidance.
2350 And We made the son of Mary and his mother as a Sign We gave them both shelter on high ground, affording rest and security and furnished with springs.
2351 O ye apostles! enjoy (all) things good and pure, and work righteousness for I am well-acquainted with (all) that ye do.Like i said, Allah is narrating about the prophets who came before prophet Mohammed. so, the apostles would indicate them.We can not pull a verse out of context, single it out and try to make sense out of it.
Peace! -
Peace,
But Allah doesnt mention any more of them.
Of course not!
How much of a guidance would such a declaration be that Allah will send Joseph in the future or any man by any name?
What you are looking for is nonesensical.
And Allah also says He has 'perfected' the religion <cut>
Yes Allah has said this. This does not mean that the very same din that was promulgated before by Allah and His rusul were incomplete. He has perfected it as it has been perfected before.
and completed His favour on mankind which would also imply that mankind is now expected to take up the responsibility of upholding Allah's values by themselves.
You are making wrong assumptions and are not taking the quranic principles into account. People have always been expected to take such responsibility .
so, u agree, its just ur opinion. and not a clear fact stated in the Quran. Peace!
You did ask my opinion did you not?
so, is 'more nabi/rusul to come' ur assumption?
So I gave you my opinion. Let's not resort to ill-founded tactics.
there are no ayatin in Quran stating that Allah will keep sending messengers until the final day or infact after prophet Mohammed, to govern mankind.
This does not mean that no more rusul will come! You still have not shown me where Allah said He will stop the sending of rusul. You're adopting the practice of al-kafireen who deny any more rusul will come after the one's thay have heard of.
Currently, I have no rusul to accept or reject so its pointless to say that I should accept a non exsistent Nabi.
It is you who have adopted the belief that no more rusul are to be sent. You say Allah will send no more because you have not come across any ayatin stating specific rusul to be looking for and because He does not say that He will send more rusul. So I ask you to show me where Allah has said that He will stop sending rusul.
so, the apostles would indicate them.We can not pull a verse out of context, single it out and try to make sense out of it.
So Allah is mentioning past rusul and then says "O rusul"? Please explain how you come to the conclusion that God is speaking to past rusul? Why is He telling those who have already passed away to do certain things? I ask again, please describe to me these bayyinat you will know of?
Joe
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SaLaM
Again the whole discussion is going off tangent becoz of the people who cant answer simple questions. You dont know who the messenger is. You dont know who to follow. Without a messenger a country cannot be ruled. Simple questions
1] Who is the messenger today
2] Who were the messenger in the last 1400 years that governed their kingdom under laws strictly from the Quran -
Peace to you PM,
yes, i believe all form of goodness, wisdom, knowledge contained within and outside Quran are from Allah.
Thats why reality, common sense matters to me coz i try not to be shortsighted.
Peace, anyways. u r free to believe as u understand is right, and so am i.Interesting. So a reliance on Allah for a criteria is short-sighted? Honestly , I am amazed at how 'muslims' can say this? In my opinion, your view simply shows a lack of familiarity with the book and its concepts, but that's just my opinion. peace.
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SaLaM
Lashings for Adultery is not part of a rule of a given society?
HAHAHA rotfl is that the only rule in your society?? Lashing??
Thats one of the DIVINE IMMUTABLE LAWS in the QURAN but there are also laws on murder and inheritance etc... Jaxal - but obiviously you can ignore all the DIVINE IMMUTABLE LAWS wink and say QURAN promotes democracy - where human make the LAWS... wink
Regards,
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SaLaM LT
where human make the LAWS... wink
Becoz the Quran is not a book of laws wink hence why humans have to make the laws ... old chap wink
So rules on murder, adultery, inheritance they are not laws?
What are they? mere textual cosmetics to embillish the holy scirpture?Regards,
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Peace,
I've no idea where Jaxal's thoughts are. I see he does not understand what LoteTree is getting at.
MQ, I too think that PM may not be too familiar with the concepts of al-kitab.
] Who is the messenger today
He would be that one who embodies the quranic principles.
2] Who were the messenger in the last 1400 years that governed their kingdom under laws strictly from the Quran
Who these individuals were I do not know. They would embody the principles of the kitab.
It's like asking me who are the other rusul besides those mentioned by Allah. I do not know this portion of the unseen. You will only witness the rasool during your time.
All of the rasool mentioned in the book are personalities which embody the station. It's like seeing the inside portion of a gem from its different angles.
Joe
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But Allah doesnt mention any more of them to come after prophet Mohammed?.
Of course not!
Is that so? Quranic verses please?
How much of a guidance would such a declaration be that Allah will send Joseph in the future or any man by any name?
What you are looking for is nonesensical.Well, God did mention the arrival of prophet Mohammed in gospel. is that nonsesnsical? Now, I wouldnt do that.
And heres some good reading
http//www.islamworld.net/Muhammad.in.Bible.htmlAnd Allah also says He has 'perfected' the religion <cut>
Yes Allah has said this. This does not mean that the very same din that was promulgated before by Allah and His rusul were incomplete. He has perfected it as it has been perfected before.
Looks like u r contradicting Allah's statement here. Has He said that He perfected the religion before Quran in any previous scriptures? Perfecting something means the absolute best.
and completed His favour on mankind which would also imply that mankind is now expected to take up the responsibility of upholding Allah's values by themselves.
You are making wrong assumptions and are not taking the quranic principles into account. People have always been expected to take such responsibility .
what assumptions am I making?
Are u not the one assuming that there are more messengers to come to govern mankind in the Quranic way and we should wait around for them?so, u agree, its just ur opinion. and not a clear fact stated in the Quran. Peace!
You did ask my opinion did you not?
no, i asked u if it was a fact stated in the Quran.
And u have agreed it is just ur opinion in the matter and not a fact stated in the Quran.So I gave you my opinion. Let's not resort to ill-founded tactics.
Peace Nabi! No ill founded tactics here. I merely stated what u said.
there are no ayatin in Quran stating that Allah will keep sending messengers until the final day or infact after prophet Mohammed, to govern mankind.
This does not mean that no more rusul will come! You still have not shown me where Allah said He will stop the sending of rusul. You're adopting the practice of al-kafireen who deny any more rusul will come after the one's thay have heard of.
A very nonsensical use of Allah verse!(the Al-kafirin one)
I acknowledge 'seal of the prophets' and 'prefected the religion' and ' completed my favour'.
So, that indicates a stop.
Like I said anything can happen. God can send more prophets or may not send any. He makes those decissions according to His will. He knows it all. I do not know the future nor do u. He does. He for sure has not told us to wait around for prophets in His last message, to govern mankind.
Allah is the most supreme and all wise.Currently, I have no rusul to accept or reject so its pointless to say that I should accept a non exsistent Nabi.
It is you who have adopted the belief that no more rusul are to be sent. You say Allah will send no more because you have not come across any ayatin stating specific rusul to be looking for and because He does not say that He will send more rusul. So I ask you to show me where Allah has said that He will stop sending rusul.
Nabi, there is no point ranting the same over and over.
I gave u 2 verses but u do not acknowledge them.
When i asked u to give me one verse that said Allah will send more prophets after Prophet Mohammed, u failed to do so.so, the apostles would indicate them.We can not pull a verse out of context, single it out and try to make sense out of it.
So Allah is mentioning past rusul and then says "O rusul"? Please explain how you come to the conclusion that God is speaking to past rusul? Why is He telling those who have already passed away to do certain things?
u quote 251. Allah has been talking of Moses and jesus and other pasr apostles in the verses 244- 250. in 251, i find Allah adressing Prophet Mohammed who has joined the rank of the other apostles who came before Him.
I ask again, please describe to me these bayyinat you will know of?
if indeed Allah decides to send a messenger, it will be very evident.
when Prophet Mohammed came, there were clear signs. Allah also challenged mankind then, to produce any verse like Quran.
so, whatever the sign be, it will be very clear and evident. and So will the message from God. The real purpose of the messenger is only to convey the message of God.Ok, Now that i have answered all ur questions, here's something u should give a thought to.
u said we need messengers to govern mankind from time to time and we cant do without them. where in Quran does Allah say that? Infact some of the messengersof the past(like jesus) didnt govern their people.they only conveyed the message from God.
so, why would u think that?
And, theres no point going on and on about the same thing.
I entered this dicussion in page 11. we are still at square one.
I ask why do we need messengers to govern mankind justly, coz Allah never said any such thing that only mesengers are capable of governing mankind.Anyways, as I said this is just pointless and I see no sense in going on again and again saying the same thing.
Peace to u!
May Allah increase our wisdom and knowledge! -
Hi Nabi,
MQ, I too think that PM may not be too familiar with the concepts of al-kitab.
that is a cheap retreat!
But who cares?
u obviously think u r the most wise and most knowledegable. Believe what u want! )
looks like i wasted my time after all. i thought i was discussing with a human being and not a being who knew it all.
The way i see it, u dont have any answers or any facts to prove ur claims.
And ur arrogance is evident as well when u say u r more familiar with the book than me or anyone else!
Peace Guy.
Believe what u want.
I am not here to say I am great. So, I would not join the parade. -
PMthat is a cheap retreat!
But who cares?
u obviously think u r the most wise and most knowledegable. Believe what u want!
looks like i wasted my time after all. i thought i was discussing with a human being and not a being who knew it all.
The way i see it, u dont have any answers or any facts to prove ur claims.
And ur arrogance is evident as well when u say u r more familiar with the book than me or anyone else!This is not a question of flexing one's knowledge muscles. Its a question PROVIDING EVIDENCE. What is the point of us being in this forum if we don't centralise al-quraan?
Do you not believe in al-quraan , PM ? If you do, then why not accept what it says the sunna of Allah doesn't change and so messengers will keep coming.
Take a look at this.And how would ye deny Faith while unto you are rehearsed the Signs of God, and among you is the Apostle? Whoever holds firmly to God will be shown a way that is straight.
(3/101)So is it ok for us to be kafireen now since no messengers are around?
Al-quraan is the kind of book where, if your understanding is wrong, it will contradict other ayaat. Your historiographical view of messengership contradicts many verses of al-quraan.
I guess at the end of the day, some people have not escaped sunnism. They still carry the epistemological weight sunnism burdens them with. Al-quraan sadly (for them, that is) repudiates this manner of thinking. It's about OUR LIVES. Only al-kafireen think its a book of history
When Our Signs are rehearsed to him, he says, "TALES OF THE ANCIENTS!"....
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Peace to you PM,
yes, i believe all form of goodness, wisdom, knowledge contained within and outside Quran are from Allah.
Thats why reality, common sense matters to me coz i try not to be shortsighted.
Peace, anyways. u r free to believe as u understand is right, and so am i.Interesting. So a reliance on Allah for a criteria is short-sighted? Honestly , I am amazed at how 'muslims' can say this? In my opinion, your view simply shows a lack of familiarity with the book and its concepts, but that's just my opinion. peace.
I said ''not seeing that all forms of goodness, wisdom and knowledge outside Quran is also from Allah'' is shortsightedness.
And i am amazed how a Muslim who claims, is a strict believer and follower of Quran can do that and be so blind? and also resort to arrogance every now and then?and believes he knows it all?
whew!wasnt this how we are not supposed to be? -
Joe It's like asking me who are the other rusul besides those mentioned by Allah. I do not know this portion of the unseen. You will only witness the rasool during your time.
I don't understand what the obession is with history. The people who continuously seek stories are people who DO NOT BELIEVE in the last day (6/112-113).
Al-quraan is doubly clear on this
O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. But if ye ask about things when the Qur'an is being revealed, they will be made plain to you, God will forgive those for God is Oft- forgiving, Most Forbearing.
What happens to those who INSIST on questioning information they can't possibly know
Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith.(5/101-102)
Its really strange to me that ppl who claim to be muslims who don't listen to the ayaat of Allah. oh well....