Quran & Democracy: Are they compatible? by M. Asadi
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Peace,
OH no! Dare i believe or disagree with u! )
It does not matter to me.
come on Nabi, ofcourse people 3000 yrs ago were less civilized than we are today.
Why would you say that people 3000 years ago were less civilized than we are today?
or are u saying that mankind behaved very civilized and orderly on their own, from the time mankind originated?
I'm not sure what mankind did when they originated but I think man could be disorderly and orderly at the same time. I believe tribes of long ago had their sthical standards. In Rome tribes which did not meet Roman ethical and hygenic standards were considered barbaric, i.e. bathing was what the civilized did on a daily basis and the uncivilized did not. In Egypt they were civilized, with their social heirarchies and labor divisions and economies. Such as you will find in Mesopotamia , and China.
However, what does distinguish men from animals is man's ability to think. We think because we speak. Speech puts us above the animal kingdom in this way. Speech is a way that we use abstract signals for the material signals in nature. Thus with these abstract signals we reflect on what is said, we think, have conciousness. Those 19th century thinkers were really cool. Especially Pavlov. ) With the use of our hands to build things and to create, we became social, learned to interact and to talk one to another.
propably their knowledge and wisdom was as good too.
These people did have knowledge I believe. Thier use of abstract ideas and symbols to express different things in nature beyond the senses was uncanny. The gods of the people represented forces in the world.
U surprise me!
Okay.
So, how are we to be governed?
According to the standards/statutes of Allah.
Joe
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Hi Jaxal and stillearning,
well, thank u for thinking the post is good.
I hope it also makes sense to those who keep saying Quran is anti-democratic for no obvious reasons.
I hope people remove the blinfold they have created for themselves and be more realistic and practical in today's world!
Covering up ignorance or mulishness with Quran, is not what Quran is for!
And Quran is there to guide us and not spoon feed us about everything!
I hope they see it. !
Peace! ) -
Across 16 pages you have argued again and again that rasul is the one who will give us the rules and you dont know who this rasul is-ignorance and stupidity is a lethal combination
and you hhave the nerve to make remarks likeStilllearning, it seems you're too cowardly to take on the question. The reason is you ask this IS in fact IGNORANCE. Joe has pointed out the condition of fatratin min ar-rasool which you obviously don't know. That's why you can't answer my question. My lack of a positive answer has no bearing on al-quraan's concepts. How do you know, just because I don't know of a messenger, there isn't one? That's like saying, because I never met God, there's no God. THAT'S stupid and it's ok, you're 'stilllearning', after all.
Why do you think you cannot ONCE quote al-quraan? Its because al-quraan ISN'T YOUR BOOK. It doesn't stand by you in the least. Allah calls its 'ayaatun bayyinah' but you cannot call upon it to clarify for you? Why do you think that is? Because the concept you defend is KUFR. It's a concept which flies in the face of submission to Allah.
I CHALLENGE YOU to bring quranic verses to support your arguments. A SINGLE VERSE supporting democracy. Are you a muslim or what????
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Hi Nabi,
Civilization is a continuous evolving process.
And yes, people of those ages were less civilized than we are today and thats very understandable. Coz there was ignorance about life and all things around them. Ignorance reaps fear. Since they didnt understand how nature works, they feared nature and considered them as Gods and prayed to them to gain their favours, and sacrificed fellow humans to gain their favours, and did all sort of nonsense to prevent the Gods from getting angry with them.
They didnt know women were not sex slaves.
They didnt know that men and women were equal.
They didnt know gambling, killing, stealing were wrong.The second largest linguistic and racial group in the world is the Indo-European community of nations. Most of the countries of present day Europe have Indo-European roots.
The pagan war god Wotan, one of the symbols of pagan barbarism and bigotry.
All these various civilizations have had their prophets who proclaimed the existence and the unity of God and made His commands known. But when we examine recorded history, we see that Indo-European peoples from ancient times always believed in paganism. The Greek and Roman civilizations, the Teutons, Vikings and other Barbarian peoples living in southern Europe at that time were all polytheistic pagans. For this reason, these communities remained completely without moral guidance. Violence and savagery were regarded as praiseworthy; homosexuality and adultery were widely practiced. (The most important historical representative of Indo-European civilization was the Roman Empire, and we must not forget that it was a savage society that delighted in seeing people torn apart in the arenas.)
These peoples who ruled Europe encountered monotheism through Jesus Christ, a prophet sent to Semitic people. Sent as a prophet to the children of Israel, the teaching of Jesus spread throughout Europe in the course of time and all the formerly pagan peoples gradually accepted Christianity.
But in the 18th and 19th centuries, with the weakening of Christianity and the growth of ideologies and philosophies that promoted the rejection of religion, a strange current of thought circulated in Europe- Neo-Paganism. The leaders of this movement claimed that European societies must reject Christianity and return to ancient pagan beliefs. According to the adherents of Neo-Paganism, the way European societies understood morality in ancient pagan times (i.e., a warlike, pitiless, bloodthirsty, unbounded barbarous morality), was much superior to the morality they adopted when they accepted Christianity (i.e., a humble, compassionate, peace-loving and religious morality).Nietzsche was an antisemite, because he sympathized with the pagan culture of violence and hated Theistic religions.
One of the most important representatives of this trend is also one of the greatest theorists of Fascism- Friedrich Nietzsche. He hated Christianity; he believed that it had destroyed the warlike spirit of the German people (*), that is, it's very essence.
The adherents of Neo-Paganism were hostile to Christianity; at the same time, they adopted a great hatred for Judaism which they saw as the source of Christianity. Indeed, they saw Christianity as the disseminator of Jewish ideas throughout the world and regarded it as a kind of Jewish plot.
So, this Neo-Paganism, on the one hand incited hostility against religion and, on the other, gave birth to fascism and antisemitism. Especially when we look at the foundations of the Nazi ideology, we can see clearly that Hitler and his confreres were, in fact, pagans.
excerpt from http//www.islamdenouncesterrorism.com/antisemitism.htmlNow we are not that ignorant, are we?
We understand certain things more than they did. We understand how nature works, dont we? They couldnt reason out things. we can.
so, how can u say people of that age and today are the same? -
Covering up ignorance or mulishness with Quran, is not what Quran is for!
And Quran is there to guide us and not spoon feed us about everything!This is very funny indeed. Allah sent the book for guidance, but according to you, its SILENT about MANKIND'S RULING SYSTEM? Have you actually opened the Quran, peaceful muslim?
Stillearning thinks the best system is DEMOCRACY and you think the Quran is SILENT on how man should rule society? Wow ! Really amazing the extent of your ignorance.
I issue the challenge the evidence FROM AL-QURAAN. Or denounce it altogether. What's the point of having it if it's not meant to govern us? Maybe you guys can use it to sing hymns or something
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Mquran, its pretty lame to use Allah's verse from Quran out of context, at people who disagree with ur views and interpretations. And what act of mine does Allah label?
Well, nice to know that u appreciate the sincerity but I would like some reciprocation without resorting to 'judging my views or me' for that matter. I am open to discussion with anyone who wants to talk sense and truth.Once again, I accept the possibility that im wrong. But do this one little thing for me, will you?
PROVIDE EVIDENCE PLEASE.
Do you know that book you keep on the top shelf with funny looking calligraphy? Well, its actually taught by Allah. Allah is the supreme authority of all creation. He actually issued LAWS for humankind. Read that book please and if you believe in it, SHOW ME WHERE I'VE QUOTED WRONGLY. I'm more than happy to listen.
As for the 'dont judge me' rant, this isn't Christianity. Christians love to crow 'judge not lest ye be judged' malarkey. Al-quraan is different. It's telling you TO JUDGE and further, to judge BY THE BOOK. Obviously if you don't wanna do this, its cool. But its really pathetic to claim to be a muslim if the book is totally alien to you.
How do I know the book is alien to you? Well, if you read it, you wont find a single verse telling to you to go to a disbeliever asking him to VOTE FOR YOU. No believer in al-quraan did that.
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Well Mquran,
the only true follower of Quran,
please enlighten me with a verse where Allah says democracy is wrong,
or showing compassion and tolerance towards righteous non believers is wrong?And if u cant do that, please dont rant or Judge people.
u r no better than anyone else and only Allah judges. Allah has asked us to judge sins so that they can be punished. Allah doesnt tell u to judge ur fellow beings for no obvious reasons or show disrespect towards them.
Stop acting like u r the only one who understands and follows Quran.And if u do read and understand Quran as u claim, u ought to know this
4910 The Believers are but a single Brotherhood So make peace and reconciliation between your two (contending) brothers; and fear Allah, that ye may receive Mercy.
4911 O ye who believe! Let not some men among you laugh at others It may be that the (latter) are better than the (former) Nor let some women laugh at others It may be that the (latter are better than the (former) Nor defame nor be sarcastic to each other, nor call each other by (offensive) nicknames Ill-seeming is a name connoting wickedness, (to be used of one) after he has believed And those who do not desist are (indeed) doing wrong.
4913 O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).
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Civilization is a continuous evolving process
.False. Civilsations can also DEVOLVE. Try reading al-quraan for a change in place of Hegel, PM. When the 'ajl' of a society's triggered, the count begins to the hour of destruction.
And yes, people of those ages were less civilized than we are today and thats very understandable. Coz there was ignorance about life and all things around them. Ignorance reaps fear. Since they didnt understand how nature works, they feared nature and considered them as Gods and prayed to them to gain their favours, and sacrificed fellow humans to gain their favours, and did all sort of nonsense to prevent the Gods from getting angry with them.
Once again False. People of today may not worship stone idols so much, but they do worship thier idols. Movie stars, figures in high society. All of them command the devotion of the masses. Shirik is alive and well.
They didnt know women were not sex slaves.
For God's sake, just go to a London phone booth in Central or the West End. What do you think those women are??? There for the fun of it ? Poverty FORCED them into this. Why do you analyse so superficially, PM? Do you think slavery is defined by steel chains around your ankles?
They didnt know that men and women were equal.
Didn't they? Funnily, the only revert in Islam in al-quraan was a woman who lived in pre-muhammadan times. Queen of Sheba. So false yet again.
They didnt know gambling, killing, stealing were wrong.
And we do now? Is that why crimes still go on and now gambling is a NATIONAL INSTITUTION called the lottery?
Don't be so proud of living in these times, Peaceful Muslim. In some ways, our present society are worse than animals. Allah Himself says so.
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Well Mquran,
the only true follower of Quran,If there were two people and you were the second person, then yes because you reject al-quraan.
please enlighten me with a verse where Allah says democracy is wrong,
or showing compassion and tolerance towards righteous non believers is wrong?Excuse me, where did I say showing compassion towards ANYONE is wrong? Do you to resort to defemation now 'peacefulmuslim' ????
What is Democracy????
Democracy is LEGISTLATION ACCORDING TO THE VOTE OF THE MAJORITY.
Al-quraan commands legislation THE BOOK OF ALLAH.
So ipso facto, democracy is wrong.
And if u cant do that, please dont rant or Judge people.
u r no better than anyone else and only Allah judges. Allah has asked us to judge sins so that they can be punished. Allah doesnt tell u to judge ur fellow beings for no obvious reasons or show disrespect towards them.
Stop acting like u r the only one who understands and follows Quran.Only Allah judges ?
Allah commands you to AHKUM...i.e.. JUDGE!
but how ? With the book in truth ! Not with your own hawaa/desires. Majority of people don't bother about the path. So why do i need thier approval to legislate my life????? Can't you understand this deduction?
Democracy - HUMANS legislates
Al-islaam - Allah legislates.
And if u do read and understand Quran as u claim, u ought to know this
QuoteYes, so tell me where these verses ask you to SEEK LEGISLATIVE APPROVAL ?
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All I can sense here is arrogance, absurd comparisons and disrespect for fellow beings!
I dont wish to demean myself to those standards! -
All I can sense here is arrogance, absurd comparisons and disrespect for fellow beings!
I dont wish to demean myself to those standards!Of course, asking AL-QURAAN, which to you is a history book and not comparable to Montesqiu , Voltaire and Locke, is DEMEANING. Wonderful.
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Salaam,
Stop fighting please!!!!
Peace sis Majidah
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Peace,
And Quran is there to guide us and not spoon feed us about everything!
Why is it spoonfeeding to say that the quran provides us with the info we need on building a nation?
You do not say it is spoonfeeding when it provides one with the guidance necessary to one's advancement, but when it comes to matters in this transient world it's spoonfeeding?
Each nation is to have a rasool resulting in just decisions to be made with no wrong to the people, according to Allah .
They didnt know women were not sex slaves.
Doing something that's wrong does not mean that these people did not know it was wrong. Just like when you said it was against your better judgement to respond to mquran you did so anyways. These people too follow their ego and seek to satisfy it even if they know it is against better judgement.
They didnt know that men and women were equal.
I doubt is was that they did not know. Even in patriarcal societies there were men who felt women were their equals. In SE Asia some societies had women in the position that men had in other societies. Maintainers, head of household, owned property, and women took care of finances. Men would care and expand the properties of their sisters, etc, but had none of their own.
They didnt know gambling, killing, stealing were wrong.
I doubt this as well. For if this is the argument for savages and uncivilized people then we are they. Our society is rampant with gamblers, killers, and thieves. Can you deny this? Can you even deny that these things are a problem to this day?
Now we are not that ignorant, are we?
lol Your article seems like it had no research done. Those barbarians who the Romans often warred with were not without moral guidance. They just did not live like the Romans. Rome was quite civilized and possessed all the things needed in a civilization, such things as arts, agriculture, religion, etc. They also did things that were not altogether nice, such as those death matches and killings .
We understand certain things more than they did. We understand how nature works, dont we?
Of course our understanding is of greater renown because nowadays books are everywhere, we can get information with the click of a button. In those days only the elite were lucky enough to have such knowledge at their feet. They certainly understood how nature worked. Thier inventions were the groundwork for our own. Rome had sophisticated waterways and the city was pumped with millions of tons of water a day. That's why people there had water to drink and wash with daily.
so, how can u say people of that age and today are the same?
We all have the capacity to think and reason. We are thinking beings.
Joe
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Why is it spoonfeeding to say that the quran provides us with the info we need on building a nation?
You do not say it is spoonfeeding when it provides one with the guidance necessary to one's advancement, but when it comes to matters in this transient world it's spoonfeeding?
That's just it, Joe. I have no idea where he's getting all these notions from. What does it mean to 'guide' ? Does al-quraan provide you brownie points by reading it or something???
What is a MORAL guidance, to use the democrats own words? Its a guidance w.r.t. BEHAVIOUR. Therefore, some behaviours are acceptable and some arent.
Al-quraan details al-ahkaam, God's universal laws. And until now, MONTHS after the discussion started, the democrats cant bring a single verse. Yet stillearning says democracy is the best system around. He cannot be an al-muslim because they submit to Allah whereas he submits to the majority of humans. I cant believe even that's not obvious.
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SaLaM stillearning and PM and everyone
If Quran is anti democratic then So, how are we to be governed?
For real. I think this is the most important question right now. IT has already been agreed that there is no rusol for this geenration. Perhaps Allah forgot? It is also agreed that there was no rusool for the last 1400 years. Perhaps Allah forgot? In any case, bottom line is we dont have a rusool. Now if we dont have a rusool and becoz Quran is anti democratic, how are we to be goverened?
By the way stillearning, I have shown how Quran advocates democracy a few pages ago. So dont let the barking al-dogs al-annoy you wink . This i for you too PM. If you feel that the al-barking al-dogs are annoying you, then just ignore him. there is nothing he has asked that hasnt already been answered.
By the way, i request those double posting to stop becoz its spamming the whole thread.
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Jaxal, Peacefulmuslim and Stillearning are actually MENTIONED in al-quraan
Hast thou not turned Thy vision to those who declare that they believe in the revelations that have come to thee and to those before thee? Their (real) wish is to resort together for judgment (in their disputes) to ASH-SHAITAAN, though they were ordered to reject him. But Satan's wish is to lead them astray far away (from the right).
When it is said to them "Come to what God hath revealed, and to the Apostle" Thou seest the Hypocrites avert their faces from thee in disgust
(4/60-61)God predicted thier kufr from the beginning ) Alhamdulillah.
And it's not 'a RUSUL' unless in your retard's english there's such a thing as 'a MESSENGERS'.. ) Stay another decade in the middle east, then maybe you can pick that up
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Jaxal, Peacefulmuslim and Stillearning are actually MENTIONED in al-quraan
Hast thou not turned Thy vision to those who declare that they believe in the revelations that have come to thee and to those before thee? Their (real) wish is to resort together for judgment (in their disputes) to ASH-SHAITAAN, though they were ordered to reject him. But Satan's wish is to lead them astray far away (from the right).
When it is said to them "Come to what God hath revealed, and to the Apostle" Thou seest the Hypocrites avert their faces from thee in disgust
(4/60-61)God predicted thier kufr from the beginning ) Alhamdulillah.
And it's not 'a RUSUL' unless in your retard's english there's such a thing as 'a MESSENGERS'.. ) Stay another decade in the middle east, then maybe you can pick that up
Did you speak like to your ex wife? is that why she left you? If you dont agree with what is being said then stfu. dont spew hatered from your mouth towards those who dont agree with you.
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I would like to know where in al quran do we have the right or are encouraged to call each other distasteful names? Please post the verse/s?
Are we encouraged to laugh at others in al quran? If people are calling to follow the quran, lets try to do it all the way and not be hypocrites ourselves?
I don't have a problem with people losing it occasionally, but there is a limit.