The nature of inspiration - the "voice" of the God
-
Does that make all of us messengers of God?
If God 'speaks' to us directly, why did He bother sending specific messengers to guide mankind?Peace,
It really depends what you understand to be a 'messenger'.
Many take it to be some sort of high rank that is given to an individual much as a medal might be given to a hero etc. It is not a status, and nor does it give one a higher status. A messenger is a role; to convey messages and truths to those who otherwise wouldn't experience them.
A messenger delivers the message and is not due any praise, recognition or reward from people. That is how you can detect the false messenger - the aim of the false messenger is to extract recognition, status, power (and sometimes money and other rewards).
It's true that some are honoured with a rank or status - that of being one of the nabiyan or 'prophet' for their outstanding service and commitment to the God alone.
Regards.
-
Hello Ahmed,
Hello Oben
"Kalam Allah Mosa Takilma" is clear as light and Mosa was explicitly chosen for it
based on your logic then "Allah Kalama All the prophet Taklima" but he never said that
so bro I can assure you and logically speaking you are going against the odds
....
so I have no ego neither I'm arrogant, I'm very open minded and I acceot any compelling logic, and it has to be compelling
Brother you are missing very important points that are raised here. I will list them as points so you can see how compelling they are.
-
4251 states absolutely that there is no 'speaking' of the God in the usual sense you would understand. Just like there is no 'writing' of the God in the usual sense. 4251 makes it clear that the 'speaking' that is mentioned is always through a number of other ways; and is not a 'direct' speech that is heard out loud. The key word is 'illa' - except for.
-
2013 clearly states that the communication is happening via inspiration - wahyi - because the word 'yooha' is clear and compelling.
-
2068 shows that what the God says is not heard by third parties and is an internal communication.
-
Any reference to 'speaking' in a verse relating to the God is therefore through inspiration or the other ways in 4251.
-
The God is does not play a ventriloquist throwing an audible voice onto some inanimate object according to my understanding.
The only thing that may still allow you to hold onto the Judaeo-Christian anthropomorphic view is the 'burning bush' parable which is mistranslated to accord with the traditional view.
The idea is an amalgamation of separate verses and we can discuss the problems with the usual translation/understanding. First the fire.
278 When he came to it, he was called "Blessed is the One (who is speaking from) within the fire, and those around it." Glory be to GOD, Lord of the universe.
Falamma jaaha noodiya an boorika man fee alnnari waman hawlaha wasubhana Allahi rabbi alAAalameena
This is not about a voice which is speaking from the fire (note the parenthesis) and a better translation is...
278 When he came to it, he was called "Blessed are those in the fire and those around and glory be to the God, the Lord of existence."
Who are those in the fire and those around? As I explained above - the fire is representing the illumination and enlightenment that comes with the God's guidance. An inspiration that lights up. Those who receive it are blessed, and those around are those who benefit from it also.
2830 When he reached it, he was called from the edge of the right side of the valley, in the blessed spot where the burning bush was located "O Moses, this is Me. GOD; Lord of the universe.
Falamma ataha noodiya min shati-i alwadi al-aymani fee albuqAAati almubarakati mina alshshajarati an ya moosa innee ana Allahu rabbu alAAalameena
There is no 'burning' in this verse but instead simply 'the tree' so it is best translated as...
2830 When he reached it, he was called from the edge of the right side of the valley, from a tree in blessed ground "O Moses! I am the God, the Lord of existence."
Why a tree? The tree represents knowledge, a concept related to the enlightenment/illumination as the tree is the fuel for fire.
3680 He is the One who creates for you, from the trees, fuel which you burn for light.
The process of enlightenment, and communication by the God happens through processes that do not involve anthropomorphic voices heard aloud etc.
Peace.
-
-
Hello Ahmed,
Hello mate
Brother you are missing very important points that are raised here. I will list them as points so you can see how compelling they are.
Let's look again at each one bro
- 4251 states absolutely that there is no 'speaking' of the God in the usual sense you would understand.
bro there is nothing in the verse that suggest there was no speaking, in fact the verse is about "KaLaMa" which is to talk
Just like there is no 'writing' of the God in the usual sense.
bro writing is different, please don't mix the two
4251 makes it clear that the 'speaking' that is mentioned is always through a number of other ways; and is not a 'direct' speech that is heard out loud. The key word is 'illa' - except for.
No bro, verse 4251 lists 3 possible ways of talks to humans by God
- via inspiration "like most prophet including Moses"
- directly but behind a barrier "we only know about Moses as Allah told us"
- via a messenger "we know it happened via the angels, an evidence is the Quran we have in out hand and can not b e written by a human"
so the direct speech is listed in the verse which is number 2 above
- 2013 clearly states that the communication is happening via inspiration - wahyi - because the word 'yooha' is clear and compelling.
I'm sorry you don't call someone to inspire him internally, Allah has called Moses "Noodaa" and within the real discussion He told Moses to follow what is inspired which I believe must be the Torah and other thinks that will be communicated internally ?Wahi?
- 2068 shows that what the God says is not heard by third parties and is an internal communication.
True , but you know why?, because it was Wahi ?An Inspiration?, remember when I told you that this is another incident and you deliberately turning a blind eye on it, ok here is the Quran talking about the same incident and in it it clearly sayd it was an inspiration
YUSUFALIWe put it into Moses's mind by inspiration "Throw (now) thy rod"and behold! it swallows up straight away all the falsehoods which they fake!
PICKTHAL And We inspired Moses (saying) Throw thy staff! And lo! it swallowed up their lying show.
SHAKIR And We revealed to Musa, saying Cast your rod; then lo! it devoured the lies they told.
(117)
-> What else I can say bro?, clear as light in English and Arabic in this incident Allah talked to Moses via inspiration consequently no one will hear it even Moses
- Any reference to 'speaking' in a verse relating to the God is therefore through inspiration or the other ways in 4251.
Sure bro, the reference is 7117 talking about the same exact incident and clearly Allah says it is an inspiration, read it above please,
Remember when I said that The Quran is magic and it seems Allah knows what the people thinks about Him and He included the answers in the Quran, what I showed you put a lot of weight to my knowledge about Allah as extracted from the Quran
- The God is does not play a ventriloquist throwing an audible voice onto some inanimate object according to my understanding.
well, God did not say the voice was put unto an object, Allah said it was Him talking behind a barrier
The only thing that may still allow you to hold onto the Judaeo-Christian anthropomorphic view is the 'burning bush' parable which is mistranslated to accord with the traditional view.
I don?t give a fluke really about the Judaeo-Christian or the Judaeo-Islam, I only care about the clear Arabic Quran
The idea is an amalgamation of separate verses and we can discuss the problems with the usual translation/understanding. First the fire.
278 When he came to it, he was called "Blessed is the One (who is speaking from) within the fire, and those around it." Glory be to GOD, Lord of the universe.
Falamma jaaha noodiya an boorika man fee alnnari waman hawlaha wasubhana Allahi rabbi alAAalameena
This is not about a voice which is speaking from the fire (note the parenthesis) and a better translation is...
The Arabic verse never suggested that the voice was coming from the fire, this is a joke bro, right?
278 When he came to it, he was called "Blessed are those in the fire and those around and glory be to the God, the Lord of existence."
Who are those in the fire and those around? As I explained above - the fire is representing the illumination and enlightenment that comes with the God's guidance. An inspiration that lights up. Those who receive it are blessed, and those around are those who benefit from it also.
-> I donlt know but what I know that the verse never said that Allah was in the fire or around the fire, I would say it sounded like an introduction to Moses by Allah, like when you start talking you say ?Hello?, and the fire was mentioned with Barakah so Moses would not be sacred as I know the fire was so huge
2830 When he reached it, he was called from the edge of the right side of the valley, in the blessed spot where the burning bush was located "O Moses, this is Me. GOD; Lord of the universe.
Falamma ataha noodiya min shati-i alwadi al-aymani fee albuqAAati almubarakati mina alshshajarati an ya moosa innee ana Allahu rabbu alAAalameena
There is no 'burning' in this verse but instead simply 'the tree' so it is best translated as...
yep but the tree maybe another object than the fire, very possible indeed
2830 When he reached it, he was called from the edge of the right side of the valley, from a tree in blessed ground "O Moses! I am the God, the Lord of existence."
Why a tree? The tree represents knowledge, a concept related to the enlightenment/illumination as the tree is the fuel for fire.
I never knew that the tree represent knowledge, but again what you are saying does not prove your point anyway that Allah didn?t talk directly to Moses, Allah clearly said He did more than one time in the Quran
3680 He is the One who creates for you, from the trees, fuel which you burn for light.
The process of enlightenment, and communication by the God happens through processes that do not involve anthropomorphic voices heard aloud etc.
Peace.
Well you play with the verses well but not good enough mate, verse 3680 is simply talking about a sign that Allah created for us which is the timber we burn, and that timber we get it from the trees, very simple indeed and my 13 years old daughter will understand it with ease
May Allah help you bro
Peace be with you
-
This proves that the 'voice' is internal and is not even a dialogue but an inspiration thrown into the person.
Best wishes.What took you so long to realise that truth, Truth?
All spiritual insights in the bygone ages of this world have come from within, from the depth of the soul. Revelation is an "event" that happens in each individual's soul. Prophet Muhammad did not rise up to the highest heavens for his revelations but descended to the very core of his soul to meet his "maker"...
Regards,
-
What took you so long to realise that truth, Truth?
Not everyone can be like Maharishi LoteTree
All spiritual insights in the bygone ages of this world have come from within, from the depth of the soul. Revelation is an "event" that happens in each individual's soul. Prophet Muhammad did not rise up to the highest heavens for his revelations but descended to the very core of his soul to meet his "maker"...
FYI, neither ascent or descent was mentioned in al-quraan.
-
What took you so long to realise that truth, Truth?
Not everyone can be like Maharishi LoteTree
All spiritual insights in the bygone ages of this world have come from within, from the depth of the soul. Revelation is an "event" that happens in each individual's soul. Prophet Muhammad did not rise up to the highest heavens for his revelations but descended to the very core of his soul to meet his "maker"...
FYI, neither ascent or descent was mentioned in al-quraan.
The journey is symbolic and metaphoric...watch for the symbols and metaphors wink
Regards,
-
The journey is symbolic and metaphoric...watch for the symbols and metaphors
Great, but WHERE is it ? Muhammad is mentioned in 3/144, 48/29, 47/2 and 33/40 and I cant find no journeyin' !
I am sure you will figure it out -)
The answer is staring at you....Regards,
-
Peace All,
Truth, I agree with your analysis completely. Thanks for putting the research together. Understanding 4251 has opened up a whole new world of knowledge for me this past year.
Ahmed, you stated
if I?m a believer in the Quran and Allah, will it make a difference if I know that Allah talked to His prophets directly, via inspirations or via a messenger?
For a believer and logically speaking, it should not make the slightest of difference
I think it does make a difference in that believing that God only communicated with a chosen few leaves you out of the loop. It impedes your own potential, causing one to never truly appreciate their own connectedness to the universe, their own divinity.
The metaphoric understanding of many verses unlocks these mental barriers. The God is a constant, always there, ready and willing to talk to us.
To believe that God only talked to a Jew named Moses some 3000 years ago does not really accomplish anything. It's just a story. The moral God talked to Moses and gave him powers and strength and Moses fought the tyranny and freed his people only after God used some sorcery to open up the sea and swallow the bad guys.
How does that help us today?? Why doesn't God swallow up all the bad guys today??
Perhaps, in understanding that Moses was fulfilling his own potential, the same as we can, a more powerful lesson can be learned - one that can be implemented in each person's life - right now.
Peace,
Tay -
I am sure you will figure it out
The answer is staring at you....For a guy who wants to take us beyond religious constraints into his universalist humanism, you certainly are vague. You speak of 'lofty' human principles, so I wonder if being clear is part of your virtue system or not. Obfuscation is certainly no virture whether from a Quranic or a secular perspective.
-
I am sure you will figure it out
The answer is staring at you....For a guy who wants to take us beyond religious constraints into his universalist humanism, you certainly are vague.
Into MY universalist humanism?
I thought you were the one who spoke of "What is good for MANKIND", "WHAT IS BEST FOR MANKIND"- were these empty words for you mquran?
Read Surah 53 and tell me what is the metaphoric and symbolic parts in that surah.
Regards,
-
Peace be upon you,
There is no "Prophet Muhammd", so he did not go up , out , in , or anywhere D However, there is a statement that says The God saw "us" looking about the sky and directs us to the correct "qibla" which is the "place of hearing and obeying the restrictions". Musa was told to take his shoes off because the journey is WITHIN(Tuwa).
The God is talking to all of us right now! We just have to purify the NAFS so we can hear. D
-
There is no "Prophet Muhammd", so he did not go up , out , in , or anywhere
No, Quran just popped into the vacuum of space and arab nomads stumbled on to it by chance wink
Regards,
-
Peace be upon you Lote Tree,
idolfree1 wrote
There is no "Prophet Muhammd", so he did not go up , out , in , or anywhereNo, Quran just popped into the vacuum of space and arab nomads stumbled on to it by chance
No, It was written by the hands of pious scribes. MU-hammadun is a description, not a proper name of a historical figure.
-
LT No, Quran just popped into the vacuum of space and arab nomads stumbled on to it by chance
Aha, a glimpse of your 'objective instruments of analysis' are coming to disclosure now
Question how do you go about discovering the historicity of al-quraan?
Into MY universalist humanism?
I thought you were the one who spoke of "What is good for MANKIND", "WHAT IS BEST FOR MANKIND"- were these empty words for you mquran?
No they weren't. But I seek the best for humankind because it is al-haqq (see 13/17 for my definition). Its the objective truth, the ultimate truth. Its part of my service to Allah.
Read Surah 53 and tell me what is the metaphoric and symbolic parts in that surah.
Do you see the word 'muhammad' in chapter 53? Its talking about a living person now, not the Muhammad of history.
-
There is no "Prophet Muhammd", so he did not go up , out , in , or anywhere
No, Quran just popped into the vacuum of space and arab nomads stumbled on to it by chance
No, It was written by the hands of pious scribes. MU-hammadun is a description, not a proper name of a historical figure.
So now the "Pious Scribes" concocted the Quran? There was no Prophet at all? What are you saying? Please elaborate!
Is Quran a work of a single man or Work of Mulitple hands?
Regards,
-
Hello
My name is Ahmed
would that be a description not my name?
I'm really puzzled, I got to meet the parents and inquire with them why they named me a name that should not exist for real
peace
-
Hello
My name is Ahmed
would that be a description not my name?I'm really puzzled, I got to meet the parents and inquire with them why they named me a name that should not exist for real
peaceYes, it is easy to play Word Games like this isn't it?
Regards,
-
Peace be upon you Lote Tree,
So now the "Pious Scribes" concocted the Quran? There was no Prophet at all? What are you saying? Please elaborate!
(8013-14) In honoured written pages/sheets. Raised, purified. By scribes'/writers' hands.
Yes, there was and always will be prophets, men who are inspired by the God and intuit the Divine Truths. These truths are written down by mens hands to be delivered to others. What I am saying is that the word "muhammad" is describing character, not the name of the actual prophet.
Is Quran a work of a single man or Work of Mulitple hands?
Id o not take the word "quran" to be the title of any book, but if you are referring to this book, then I am not sure how many hands were involved, I was not present, and no one else here was either so none of us has that answer.