The concept of God
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SaLaM Ahmed
It is a valid question. When you say God is all that and a bag of chips, it does makes one think why it took God 6 days to build heaven and earth. Can you answer this question?
NO bro I'm sorry I can't, and I have to abide by 1736
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I>E. when I don't have knowledge I should not argue, unless you consider this a descrepency in the Quran and consequently I will have to respond to it, but you have to convince me first that it is a descrepency beyonfg resonable doubt
peace be with you
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Peace Jaxal,
it does makes one think why it took God 6 days to build heaven and earth. Can you answer this question?
Because He chose to take His 'time'. ) Again, "days" is a metaphor, since "DAYS" weren't quite in existence.There's a vegetable soup that I make once in a while. It can take me 15 minutes to make it... but I choose to take about 6 (no pun intended) hours... tastes much better when I put love and time into it. yes
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SaLaM SC and Ahmed and zenje
SC
'Be' is a process, not magic, futher emphasized by "be and it becomes/is becoming".
So say for example God was going to create a chair and a planet with a self sustaining ecological system. God says 'Be' for it to be done. Are you saying, that the planet will take longer to be created than the chair? While chair is a simple in its size and shape, the planet is a whole different story? Or are you saying that it will take time for the rocks to come together and the water to form and the plants to grow and all that.
Why cant it just just be 'Be' and its done?
Ahmed
NO bro I'm sorry I can't, and I have to abide by 1736
Thats ok brother, i was just thinking out loud.
zenje
Because He chose to take His 'time'.
Why would there be the need for God to take time? God is all knowing. God is perfect. Its not like God will make a mistake and then correct it. Hence why the time delay. Or its not like God didnt like where the mountain was placed or where the jungle was growing and God deicded to move that around. Infact i dont think God cares where the mountains are and the ocean is and the jungle grows. So why the time taken? Doing what?
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Jaxal
Time is a creature, don't think nro that it will apply on the one He created it
for example, if Allah can know the future, then Time does not apply on Him
so how come you we use something for messuring time "rotation of planets around stars etc, etc" and apply on Him?
why not the 6 days are reresenting 6 periods of very long time "from our perspective, the rotation of earth around the sun" as a preperation for our existance according to Allah plan that He wanted to look like nature to us "not like magic and things just appears in front of our eyes", and sure it did with someone like Darwin
you see when we start talking about the UNSEEN we will end up with many possibilties that can be exploited by the devil
you have to know that believing in the UNSEEN is one hell of a hrd thing to achieve
peace bro
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SaLaM Ahmed
WEll brother, this is what im thinking. Lets forget that days exist. or years or seconds or minutes. Lets forget all of that. God uses the number 6. 6 of something took place before the earth and heaven was created. 6 what? Even leaving that aside, why did it take 6 of anything for God to create earth and heaven. ALL GOD HAD TO DO WAS SAY 'BE' and its done. Becoz Its God! I hope you understand what im trying to say.
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SaLaM Ahmed
WEll brother, this is what im thinking. Lets forget that days exist. or years or seconds or minutes. Lets forget all of that. God uses the number 6. 6 of something took place before the earth and heaven was created. 6 what? Even leaving that aside, why did it take 6 of anything for God to create earth and heaven. ALL GOD HAD TO DO WAS SAY 'BE' and its done. Becoz Its God! I hope you understand what im trying to say.
yes bro He did say let the universe and earth to be and with that order the process has started "iy took no time for Him" but it took 6 periods of our time as explained to us by Him
I don't think Days apply on Allah, i firmly believe that 6 days means 6 periods of our time
remember bro the verse says
"Inma Amrona An Naqool Lahu Kon Fa Yakoon"
you see "Fa Yakoon" means a future icnident that is continuing to happen, a continuty of verb to be "Fa Yakoon", the verse never said it will happen on the spot, rather the process of to be has started and can not be stopped unless Allah wish so
peace bro
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Peace Jaxal,
Why cant it just just be 'Be' and its done?
I already explained why, and if that didn't penetrate, the only way I can think of driving the point home further would be with a railroad spike.
So say for example God was going to create a chair and a planet with a self sustaining ecological system. God says 'Be' for it to be done. Are you saying, that the planet will take longer to be created than the chair? While chair is a simple in its size and shape, the planet is a whole different story? Or are you saying that it will take time for the rocks to come together and the water to form and the plants to grow and all that.
What do you think? Do you think the chair would be floating in the depths of space and then plonk itself on the planet when it comes into being? There is a system of doing things, it starts from the basics and builds up to the more complex and in the case of the universe...what we know now regarding it's design, it's more complicated than we thought possible and yet that is the basic stuff upon which the universe is built...to put it in simple terms...when God asks us the rhetorical question in 7927, and what we know today...it is truly remarkable.
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Deleted due to not wanting to debate God being man.
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Eh, right you are...not canadian are you?
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A long article chap!
yeh mate, I love reading the holy books and any toughts about it, so I thought I share it with you
Very nice of you -)
And I see no one has responded.
true but my objective was not to debate it nor to cheer for it rather to show clear verses from 4 holy books that are well respected now days, and we can see clearly the similarity between all religions mentioned
Really? Is that why you have ended with a summary to say Quranic God is more tenable? wink
I say for the concept of God, they work great for me because I can see what makes great sense within, regarding knowing the system, i say which system
There is no need to proceed with this since your intention was not to debate... and thats fair enough... -)
Though one can easily comment on your summary on the "Concept of God" wink
But I see now you got a debate now going -)
Regards,
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A long article chap!
yeh mate, I love reading the holy books and any toughts about it, so I thought I share it with you
Very nice of you -)
And I see no one has responded.
true but my objective was not to debate it nor to cheer for it rather to show clear verses from 4 holy books that are well respected now days, and we can see clearly the similarity between all religions mentioned
Really? Is that why you have ended with a summary to say Quranic God is more tenable? wink
I say for the concept of God, they work great for me because I can see what makes great sense within, regarding knowing the system, i say which system
There is no need to proceed with this since your intention was not to debate... and thats fair enough... -)
Though one can easily comment on your summary on the "Concept of God" wink
But I see now you got a debate now going -)
Regards,
Ok mate
but you didn't debate you justy came and said it was used by date logic or somethin similar, so how you expect me that I debate it then,
i don't think with every generation we need to revise the ideas about God, I reckon since Adam humans should have known what God exactly is
peace
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quote="AhmedBahgat"]
i don't think with every generation we need to revise the ideas about God, I reckon since Adam humans should have known what God exactly is
peaceBut every generation does Ahmed. When one Idea of God ceases to be effective or longer "works" for human beings, it is replaced without much great fan fare. We have done this many times in our evolutionary past. The Myths of Marduk gave away to Myths of Ahura Mazda. The Biblical God wrestled with Jacob at the Fords of Jabakuk. He appeared to Moses on Mount Sinai in an awe inspiring volcanic eruption and told him to keep his distance. To the Prophet Elijah, GOD was not in any of the natural forces but can be felt "in the tiny timbre of a breeze, in a paradox of voiced silenced".
Our ideas about God can only be transitory. Humans beings will continually seek better and better understanding of "God". We will continually seek to find new meaning in the Idea of "God" in our lives. And if any idea of God ceases to be effective then it will abandoned. Just like we have abandoned the Gods of the Pagan Pantheon, just like we rejected the anthropomorphic God of the Old testament...
Regards,
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i don't think with every generation we need to revise the ideas about God, I reckon since Adam humans should have known what God exactly is
peaceBut every generation does Ahmed.
You are right mate and that is why our flaw is increasing, look at any religion mass and you will see that the majority are flawed, the point is God is the same one for all generations, so I wonder why they keep revising it?
When one Idea of God ceases to be effective or longer "works" for human beings, it is replaced without much great fan fare.
I agree, but according to the Quran, this is what Satan and his progeny will be determined to do, for us we only listen to them
We have done this many times in our evolutionary past. The Myths of Marduk gave away to Myths of Ahura Mazda. The Biblical God wrestled with Jacob at the Fords of Jabakuk.
yep and that is exactly the outcome when we listen to the Devil
He appeared to Moses on Mount Sinai in an awe inspiring volcanic eruption and told him to keep his distance.
no, He didnlt appear to Moses neither to any human for that matter, He only spoke to Moses directly form behind a barrier
To the Prophet Elijah, GOD was not in any of the natural forces but can be felt "in the tiny timbre of a breeze, in a paradox of voiced silenced".
can you please post the Bible passages, thanks
Our ideas about God can only be transitory.
it is not my idea that I made bro, it was in me by Fitra ?By nature? and I?m glad the majority of humans know that there is a God somewhere, the question for me was which God or doctrine that I follow
Humans beings will continually seek better and better understanding of "God".
yes and that is what was going on since our existence on planet earth, the problem is we Ignore what God is saying about Himself and we listen to what other flawed humans say about Him, very strange indeed
We will continually seek to find new meaning in the Idea of "God" in our lives.
the idea of god is the same since our existence, I can show you that even the aborigines tribes in Australia ages ago also had the same general understanding about our God which was nicely put briefly in one short sura
In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful.
1-?Say He is Allah, the One and Only; ?
2-?Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; ?
3-?He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; ?
4-?And there is none like unto Him. ?
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(4)Now I would like to add this bit from one of Ahmed Deedat Books that I have
*** Start ***
THE ZULU CONCEPT
In South Africa, the Zulus, a very virile and militant people - a nation akin to the Qureish of pre- Islamic Arabia - have given a name to God Almighty ? uMVELINQANGI. This word when properly articulated in its own dialect, sounds identical to the Arabic word Walla-hu-gani, meaning ? "And Allah is Rich" (Bounteous).It also sounds like "Allegany" of the Red Indians of North America (Remember their ALLEGANY mountain). The origin or real meaning of the word "Allegany" is not commonly known to the American people. But ask any Zulu as to who or what this uMvelinqangi is and he will surely explain to you in Zulu
?HAWU UMNIMZANI! UYENA, UMOYA OINGCWELE. AKAZALI YENA, FUTHI AKAZALWANGA; FUTHI, AKUKHO LUTMO OLU FANA NAYE."
Believe me, this is almost a word for word translation of Sura Ikhlas, Chapter 112 of the Quran
Now, compare the above verses with my free translation of what the Zulu actually said"Oh Sir! He is a pure and Holy Spirit, He does not beget and He is not begotten, and further there is nothing like Him."
THE LATIN CONCEPT
In the Latin-dominated languages of Western Europe, where Latin had remained dominant in learning and diplomacy for centuries, the chief term used for God is DEUSDeus in Portuguese;
Dieu in French;
Dio in Italian;
Dies in Spanish;
Dia in Scotch and Irish; and
Duw in Welsh.Surprisingly in all the languages above, Deus and all the similar sounding words mean heaven.
Moulana Vidyarthi, in his monumental work ? "Muhammad in World Scriptures,"(1)devotes a hundred pages to the names of God in the different languages. And out of a list of 155 attributive names, over 40 of them use the word "Heaven" or the "Above," in their language in describing God. Though the Muslim chants the Asma-ul-husna (the most beautiful names), 99 as derived from the Holy Quran with the crowning name, ALLAH; "Heaven" is not one of those ninety-nine attributes. Symbolically, heaven may be described as the abode of God, and in the words of Wordsworth in Tintern Abbey
WHOSE DWELLING IS THE LIGHT OF SETTING SUNS, AND THE ROUND OCEAN AND THE LIVING AIR, AND IN THE BLUE SKY, AND IN THE MIND OF MAN A MOTION AND A SPIRIT THAT IMPELS ALL THINKING THINGS, ALL OBJECTS OF ALL THOUGHTS, AND ROLLS THROUGH ALL THINGS.
(1) No student of Comparative Religion can afford to be without this book. It may become your priceless heir-loom.
CONCEPT FROM BEYOND THE FAR EAST
Among all the 155 tantalising names of God in the various tongues, there is one that tickles most is ? "A-T-N-A-T-U"
WHAT IS SO FUNNY OR SO NOVEL ABOUT ATNATU?The aborgine of South Australia calls his God "Atnatu" because some philosopher, poet or prophet had programmed him, that the Father in Heaven is absolutely free from all needs; He is independant; He needs no food nor drink. This quality, in his primitive, un-inhibited language, he conversely named ATNATU, which literally meant "the One without an anus - the One without any flaw" - i.e. the One from Whom no impurity flows or emanates. When Muslim and Christian friends, hear this, without exception, their immediate reaction was one of mirth, they giggle and laugh.
Most of them not realising that the joke was on them. The boot was on the other foot. Though the word "anus" is a very small word, only four letters in English, most people have not heard it. One is forced to use the colloquial substitute which I hesitate to reproduce here, nor will I use the same in public forum because of people's hypersensitivity - because in the words of Abdullah Yusuf All, people "HAD PERVERTED THEIR LANGUAGE ONCE BEAUTIFUL, INTO JARGONS OF EMPTY ELEGANCE AND UNMEANING FUTILITY." .
Therefore to ease the situation, in a round-about-way let us say that where you have an "input," you must allow for an "output." The one who eats, must have the call of nature - the toilet or the bush - and our primitive friend smelt the need, which he could never attribute to his Creator. Therefore, he called his God ? ATNATU, 'The one without the excretory system or its tail end'
**** End *****
The idea of the Amanah ?Our Responsibilities? and the Judgment is also briefed in one short sura
1-?In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
2-? Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;
3-?Most Gracious, Most Merciful;?
4-?Master of the Day of Judgment.?
5-?Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek.?
6-?Show us the straight way,?
7-?The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.?
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(7)and Finally the Guidance we need mentioned in verse 16 was given and preserved, that guidance is a holy book that no man claimed to have author it neither it was changed in 1400 years
how simpler can it get and understand from just the above?, it really puzzles me that humans always like to follow Fitna, non sense, allegations, manipulations, lies and surely fabrications.
And if any idea of God ceases to be effective then it will abandoned. Just like we have abandoned the Gods of the Pagan Pantheon, just like we rejected the anthropomorphic God of the Old testament...
Regards,
Well, I don?t see the truth about God has changed as I explained above, it is us who should be blamed, God is the same even under the Zulu concept and He also preserved His last Guidance so the sick humans can not manipulate it as they did with previous messages, what else he can do to us?
Peace bro
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the point is God is the same one for all generations, so I wonder why they keep revising it?
Yes, The Absolute does not change but how human beings tried to understand this Absolute has been different in each generation. For example, the God of Jacob is able to wrestle with him. But to later generations this kind of meeting between God and Man is impossible.
I agree, but according to the Quran, this is what Satan and his progeny will be determined to do, for us we only listen to them yep and that is exactly the outcome when we listen to the Devil
Devil/Satan is a conviniet excuse for human fallibility and frailty do you not think?
no, He didnlt appear to Moses neither to any human for that matter, He only spoke to Moses directly form behind a barrier
That is not the point I was making. God of Jacob wrestled with him. By the time of Moses such encounter would be impossible. God instructs Moses to keep his distance. This is a wholly different God from the one who came to the tent of Abraham on the hottest part of the day and who wrestled with Jacob. This God demanded distance and separation. Can you not see in this how the Idea of God developed? As human beings tried to make sense of the wonder, the terror and tragegedy of life so did their understanding of God developed further.
To the Prophet Elijah, GOD was not in any of the natural forces but can be felt "in the tiny timbre of a breeze, in a paradox of voiced silenced".
can you please post the Bible passages, thanks
Elijah - Verses 11b-12a
And behold, the Lord passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and broke in pieces the rocks before the Lord, but the Lord was not in the wind; and after the wind an earthquake, but the Lord was not in the earthquake. And after the earthquake a fire, but the Lord was not in the fire.Verse 12b
And after the fire a still small voice.Humans beings will continually seek better and better understanding of "God".
yes and that is what was going on since our existence on planet earth, the problem is we Ignore what God is saying about Himself and we listen to what other flawed humans say about Him, very strange indeed
But the Idea of God is developed by flawed human beings - how can it be otherwise?
the idea of god is the same since our existence, I can show you that even the aborigines tribes in Australia ages ago also had the same general understanding about our God which was nicely put briefly in one short sura
But each interprets this "God" differently and label it differently according to their own cultural baggage. Some call it "Nirvana", others "Brahman-Atman", for others its Tao, God, Yaweh etc...
WHOSE DWELLING IS THE LIGHT OF SETTING SUNS, AND THE ROUND OCEAN AND THE LIVING AIR, AND IN
THE BLUE SKY, AND IN THE MIND OF MAN A MOTION AND A SPIRIT THAT IMPELS ALL THINKING THINGS, ALL OBJECTS OF ALL THOUGHTS, AND ROLLS THROUGH ALL THINGS.
Yes, Wordsworth was a True mystic...
Regards,