Al-ins/al-insan # al-jinn

marie

Peace Kyle, all

I have jinn as the hidden beings opposite the "Ins" visable beings.

Agree. I'd like to add somes characteristics of this hidden beings in the light of the Reading

And the Jinn, We created him before that from the flames of fire.

Like mud (1761, 2312, 3711), dry clay (5514), dirt (225), the water (2130) I don't consider the fire (1527, 5515) symbolically.

They listen (721, 729, 7213)

They recognize the truth (722)

They believe in the guidance (7213).

And among us are those who surrendered, and among us are the compromisers. (7214)

728 And we touched the heaven, but found it full of powerful guards and projectiles

They don't know (7210)

And among us are those who are good doers, and some of us are opposite to that, we are in many paths.
And we acknowledge that we cannot escape God on Earth, nor can we escape Him if we run.

Both human beings and the hidden beings receive messengers (6130)

Nation (73 and tribe (6128, 6130, 5533) are used both for the human beings and the hidden beings.

Both

can explore the heavens and the Earth (5533)
are qualified as burdened, two gravities..(5531)
would be both judged for their doing and rewarded (chapter 55).
have a touch (5556, 5574)
utter a lie against God (725)
seek help mutually but they only helped increase them in confusion (726)
1. And they thought as you thought, that God would not send anyone.

From the evil of the sneaking whisperer,
Who whispers into the chests of mankind,
From among the Jinn and mankind.

wildguest1956

more about jinn http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4435

savage_carrot

Peace sis Marie,

Thank you for all the verses, that puts it in a better light.

?From the evil of the sneaking whisperer,?
?Who whispers into the chests of mankind,?
?From among the Jinn and mankind.?

I think the phrase 'into the chests of mankind' is important as it's telling us that 'the sneaking whisperer' can be one from among both the jinn and mankind who whispers into the chests of mankind. That and the rest of the verses make it a bit difficult for them to be solely thoughts, I would think they might operate like thoughts at times...as the actions here are clear that both the jinn and mankind can whisper into mankind.

I would like to read your understanding further, would you say they are solely thoughts? Or would you say that they are seperate entities that operate as thoughts at times? (btw I agree with you about the literal creation from fire (fire of a scorching wind?))

Nadia

wildguest1956

Peace sis Marie,

Thank you for all the verses, that puts it in a better light.

From the evil of the sneaking whisperer,
Who whispers into the chests of mankind,
From among the Jinn and mankind.

I think the phrase 'into the chests of mankind' is important as it's telling us that 'the sneaking whisperer' can be one from among both the jinn and mankind who whispers into the chests of mankind. That and the rest of the verses make it a bit difficult for them to be solely thoughts, I would think they might operate like thoughts at times...as the actions here are clear that both the jinn and mankind can whisper into mankind.

I would like to read your understanding further, would you say they are solely thoughts? Or would you say that they are seperate entities that operate as thoughts at times? (btw I agree with you about the literal creation from fire (fire of a scorching wind?))

Nadia

For me, proves that ins (common men) and jinn (leaders) are both part of ins (mankind).

See http//www.alislam.org/quran/tafseer/?page=2917&region=E1
"The Evil one whispers evil thoughts into the hearts of jinn (big men) and common men, sparing nobody"
=> Common men as well as leaders can be devils.

This understanding is corroborated by

We have permitted the enemies of every prophet, ins and Jinn devils, to inspire in each other with fancy words in order to deceive. Had your Lord willed, they would not have done it. You shall disregard them and their fabrications.

See also http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=63992#63992

Peace

savage_carrot

Peace,

This might belong better on the other thread, so I don't mind if it is moved to that one, I'm undecided on which thread to post on!

For me, proves that ins (common men) and jinn (leaders) are both part of ins (mankind).

Thanks so much JM, some questions for you that would help my understanding of your point of view better (from the links you provided, I'm only addressing the ones I think I have questions about)-

I think the jinn here are the leaders/notables. The leaders are often powerful/overproud/arrogant people ; but not always some of them can be righteous.
Some of them are worse they manipulate others and lead them astray they are the shayteen.
And the ins would be ordinary men.

-According to the above, what do you think of the meaning of the 'hidden' (jinn) as opposed to 'visible' (ins)?!?

And thus, We have made in every town the leaders of its guilty ones, that they make plans therein. And they plan not but against themselves, and they perceive not.

=>Here, the leaders are introduced . They make (wrong) plans.

So the reading has a word for leaders as it is, other than jinn?!? What is the difference between that and jinn? I'm posting the literal and FM translation here so you can explain it to me a little better-

6123 And like that We made/put in every village/urban city its greatest/bigger criminals/sinners to cheat/deceive in it, and they do not cheat/deceive except with themselves, and they do not feel/know .

6123 And as such, We have permitted in every town the influential from its criminals, to scheme in it. They only scheme their own souls without perceiving.

O community (mashar) of jinn/leaders and men, did there not come to you messengers from among you, relating to you my messages and warning you of the meeting of this day of yours

The jinn cannot be nomads and the ins urbanites ; because these verses make clear that they live together and mix. A mashar is a community whose affair is one and the same.

Jinn are known to live/exist together with man (community whose affair is the same), it's just the way they do that's being questioned I think...

Another very cogent proof that jinn = commanders/leaders.

He said ?O commanders, which of you can bring me her throne before they come to me surrendering??
A powerful being from among the Jinn/commanders/leaders said ?I will bring it to you before you rise from your station. For I am strong and trustworthy.?

Why would a nomad (or an invisible being, or an invisible thought) answer to this question, as it was asked to the leaders ?

If the verse would have said "before you all", it would have been conclusive, I agree. The fact that it was addressed only to Solomon I think is a consideration here. Besides, the word for commanders used in that verse is different from jinn/commanders/leaders?

2738Transliteration Qala ya ayyuha almalao ayyukum ya/teenee biAAarshiha qabla an ya/toonee muslimeena

Literal He (Soliman) said "You, you the nobles/assembly, which of you brings/comes to me with her throne ,before that they come to me Moslems/submitters ?"

Some more questions-

-Would the prophets be considered jinn as opposed to ins?
-What is your understanding of 1527?
-Why would leaders consistently be called seperate from men...Are there verses that talk about leaders from ins?
-Why would ordinary men be considered powerless? Can some of ins not be considered powerful if they own a say, company and have people working for him?
-Are leaders/jinn only those that lead 'people' and have power based on this (kinda related to the above), if so what is the proper definition that one could give regarding 'who actually has power/what type of power?'.

Thats all I can think of right now, hopefully if this discussion gets started, more thoughts will surface.

Regards.

Wakas

peace,

leaders have been known/described as 'jinn' in classical arabic dictionaries, as they are considered to be "hidden" from the people.

Wakas

wildguest1956

Peace,

This might belong better on the other thread, so I don't mind if it is moved to that one, I'm undecided on which thread to post on!

For me, proves that ins (common men) and jinn (leaders) are both part of ins (mankind).

Thanks so much JM, some questions for you that would help my understanding of your point of view better (from the links you provided, I'm only addressing the ones I think I have questions about)-

Peace SC

I suggest you to read again the following thread on jinn
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4435
And, especially the understanding of tanver Hussain
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=63350#63350
And the one of Muhammad ali
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=63384#63384

My understanding is very close to the one of Muhammad Ali (except on the status of Iblis).

I think the jinn here are the leaders/notables. The leaders are often powerful/overproud/arrogant people ; but not always some of them can be righteous.
Some of them are worse they manipulate others and lead them astray they are the shayteen.
And the ins would be ordinary men.

-According to the above, what do you think of the meaning of the 'hidden' (jinn) as opposed to 'visible' (ins)?!?

Abdul Mannan Omar, in his Dictionary of the Holy Quran, has mentioned all the following meanings of the word Jinn Tabrizi writes in his book Sharah al-Hamasha that Jinn is a being who is highly potent, shrewd and possessed great powers and abilities; whatever conceals, hides or covers; whatever remains hidden or becomes invisible; such thing or being that remain aloof from the people as if remaining concealed from eyes of the common folk, as Kings and other potentates generally do.
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=63350#63350

Another possibility is that, since whatever conceals, hides or covers can be called jinn, the chiefs can also be called jinn beacuse they cover and protect common people.

And there were men from among mankind who used to seek help from the men among the Jinn, but they only helped increase them in sin.

And thus, We have made in every town the leaders of its guilty ones, that they make plans therein. And they plan not but against themselves, and they perceive not.

=>Here, the leaders are introduced . They make (wrong) plans.

So the reading has a word for leaders as it is, other than jinn?!? What is the difference between that and jinn?

Do you think there are no interchangeable words in the quran ?

I'm posting the literal and FM translation here so you can explain it to me a little better-

6123 And like that We made/put in every village/urban city its greatest/bigger criminals/sinners to cheat/deceive in it, and they do not cheat/deceive except with themselves, and they do not feel/know .

6123 And as such, We have permitted in every town the influential from its criminals, to scheme in it. They only scheme their own souls without perceiving.

The translation I have used is the one of Muhammad Ali
http//www.muslim.org/english-quran/ch006-e.pdf

O community (mashar) of jinn/leaders and men, did there not come to you messengers from among you, relating to you my messages and warning you of the meeting of this day of yours

The jinn cannot be nomads and the ins urbanites ; because these verses make clear that they live together and mix. A mashar is a community whose affair is one and the same.

Jinn are known to live/exist together with man (community whose affair is the same), it's just the way they do that's being questioned I think...

What is the meaning of the word "jinn" in your sentence ?

Some more questions-

-Would the prophets be considered jinn as opposed to ins?

I think no. In the quran, the word jinn is never used to designate the prophets.

-What is your understanding of 1527?

It is allegorical.
See http//www.muslim.org/english-quran/ch015.pdf note 27a
And http//www.muslim.org/english-quran/ch007-58.pdf note 12a

-Why would leaders consistently be called seperate from men...Are there verses that talk about leaders from ins?

Maybe to highlight the relations between ordinary men and their leaders...

-Why would ordinary men be considered powerless? Can some of ins not be considered powerful if they own a say, company and have people working for him?

I don't know.

-Are leaders/jinn only those that lead 'people' and have power based on this (kinda related to the above), if so what is the proper definition that one could give regarding 'who actually has power/what type of power?'.

IHMO we should stick to the quran to grasp a better understanding of how term is used. The context of the verses where the word jinn is used is very important to give the word its best meaning, as well as the related verses.

Thats all I can think of right now, hopefully if this discussion gets started, more thoughts will surface.

Regards.

Peace & regards

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Savage Carrot,

Since the last time we discussed this (like a year ago i think), when you brought the concept in of them being thoughts, I have found myself thinking that can be it. That makes more sense to me, than them being a type of human...This is not to say that they might be entities on their own that operate as thoughts that are hidden from 'sight'...what I would like to know is, what are your thoughts on the 'progeny' of Iblis being jinn...How does that work? Iblis being the 'rebel' and the jinn being uncontrolled thoughts that originated from 'iblis' (thus progeny), these uncontrolled thoughts when uncontrolled are shayteen? Is there a neutral ground for these jinn? Or are they either controlled or uncontrolled?

I have the progeny of iblis being the shayteen. Both shayteen and malaika are hidden(jinn). Since we are told that jinn are both good and bad, the controlled jinn are malaika and the uncontrolled are shayteen.

Additionally, when the jinn are created from before 1527, how do you understand this in the light of the reading.

Fisrt, I understand Al Insaan as "the visable" , not manking. Al insaan is opposite to "al jinn" the hidden". The Human is created of both (created in pairs).

When we look at the symbolism, al insaan, our outer visable shell, is created from clay, the inner beings are created from fire. It is our THOUGHTS within that form our outer being and conditions(visable).

he God says He does not change a persons condition until they change whatis WITHIN thie Nafs(spirit).

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Marie,

Like mud (1761, 2312, 3711), dry clay (5514), dirt (225), the water (2130) I don't consider the fire (1527, 5515) symbolically.

How can they not be symbolic? We cant wet our finger and pull it off and shaoe it into a cup and saucer can we?

They listen (721, 729, 7213)

They recognize the truth (722)

They believe in the guidance (7213).

quote cut short

Is there any verse that says the SEE?

I am just interested to see if there is or not because I have a connection with ancient teachings that is starting to make more and more sense.

savage_carrot

Peace JM,

My understanding is very close to the one of Muhammad Ali (except on the status of Iblis).

Thanks, lot's of reading material to cover.

Another possibility is that, since whatever conceals, hides or covers can be called jinn, the chiefs can also be called jinn beacuse they cover and protect common people.

Yes, I understand, but can the actual wording help us pinpoint it further, like anything thats covers or is it something covered/hidden? Like, as in Wakas's post, it's worth looking into as it seems like an important distinction...the verse you posted augments your understanding though.

Do you think there are no interchangeable words in the quran ?

My point simply was how is it being used differently and what are the differences present in both words being used supposedly for the same concept. I will look in it further as I need to know how they are being used and the occurences...to enhance understanding of the concepts behind them.

What is the meaning of the word "jinn" in your sentence ?

I left it untranslated, because whatever they are, they are existing alongside men/ins.

IHMO we should stick to the quran to grasp a better understanding of how term is used. The context of the verses where the word jinn is used is very important to give the word its best meaning, as well as the related verses.

Yes, I agree.

As there is a lot of reading material for me to cover and study some more, I think it might take me some time to go through this and figure out whats a good fit. Thanks once again for the help!

Regards.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Marie,

Is there any verse that says the SEE?

I am just interested to see if there is or not because I have a connection with ancient teachings that is starting to make more and more sense.

Peace

Sure bro, here is the verse that clearly says they can see you and you can't see them

"O children of Adam! let not the Shaitan cause you to fall into affliction as he expelled your parents from the garden, pulling off from them both their clothing that he might show them their evil inclinations, he surely sees you, he as well as his host, from whence you cannot see them; surely We have made the Shaitans to be the guardians of those who do not believe"

(27)

Clear as light mate

Peace be with you

savage_carrot

Peace Idolfree,

I have the progeny of iblis being the shayteen. Both shayteen and malaika are hidden(jinn). Since we are told that jinn are both good and bad, the controlled jinn are malaika and the uncontrolled are shayteen.

Yes, I was thinking about this, what I hope you can help me with is, if the progeny of iblis is shayteen and shayteen are jinn (uncontrolled), if one of the progeny would turn into the malaika, can it still be considered the progeny of Iblis or because of the turning...not the progeny any more? In which case, the progeny of iblis are only shayteen as long as they remain shayteen? This means that all of the progeny of iblis were shayteen once, and those malaika that turned would have originated as shayteen? Secondly, those malaika that turned uncontrolled would be then the progeny of iblis? It would also help knowing what you think the concept/definition of progeny is? Originating from?

Fisrt, I understand Al Insaan as "the visable" , not manking. Al insaan is opposite to "al jinn" the hidden". The Human is created of both (created in pairs).

When we look at the symbolism, al insaan, our outer visable shell, is created from clay, the inner beings are created from fire. It is our THOUGHTS within that form our outer being and conditions(visable).

he God says He does not change a persons condition until they change whatis WITHIN thie Nafs(spirit).

Yes, so that would mean that the inside/hidden is created before the outside according to the verse?

marie

Peace Kyle

Peace be upon you Marie,

Like mud (1761, 2312, 3711), dry clay (5514), dirt (225), the water (2130) I don't consider the fire (1527, 5515) symbolically.

How can they not be symbolic? We cant wet our finger and pull it off and shaoe it into a cup and saucer can we? D

This is only my understanding, that doesn't exclude others understanding like your point of view.

For me, there is a close connection between the creatures, soil and water.

They listen (721, 729, 7213)

They recognize the truth (722)

They believe in the guidance (7213).

quote cut short

Is there any verse that says the SEE?

I am just interested to see if there is or not because I have a connection with ancient teachings that is starting to make more and more sense.

O Children of Adam, do not let the devil divert you as he evicted your parents from the paradise; he removed from them their protective layer to show them their wickedness. He and his tribe see you from where you do not see them. We have made the devils as allies for those who do not believe.

marie

Salam Nadia,

I would like to read your understanding further, would you say they are solely thoughts? Or would you say that they are seperate entities that operate as thoughts at times? (btw I agree with you about the literal creation from fire (fire of a scorching wind?))

I'd say that the hidden beings are seperate entities like human beings. Thoughts are a part of both the hidden beings and the human beings. Both they reason/reflect and can tell lies against the God. Both will be judged and rewarded.
Our emotions are also a part of us (joy, tears, laughter, jealousy, hatred, wrath ...).

Shabir
5343 - vi And that He it is Who makes laugh, and makes weep. (Nations that establish His Rule will have inner happiness, whereas the others will be in misery).

savage_carrot

Peace sis Marie,

I'd say that the hidden beings are seperate entities like human beings. Thoughts are a part of both the hidden beings and the human beings. Both they reason/reflect and can tell lies against the God. Both will be judged and rewarded.
Our emotions are also a part of us (joy, tears, laughter, jealousy, hatred, wrath ...).

Yes, that is also my current understanding

unknownuser

Peace be upon you,

I am going to clarify my position in a new thread entitled "the hidden ones"

marie

Peace all,

As I stated before, I consider the hidden beings as seperate entities like human beings. Some verses can help us to clarify the relation between these two beings.
The following is not an exhaustive list, feel free to add other verses

Say If all the humans/mankind and the Jinn were to gather to bring a Reading like this, they could not come with its like, even if they were helping one another.

Neither the human beings, neither the hidden beings nor the human beings and the hidden beings together could not bring a Reading like this

On that Day, no more questioning is asked of human or Jinn as to his sins.
No human has ever touched them, nor Jinn.
And we had thought that neither mankind nor the Jinn would ever utter a lie against God.
From the evil of the sneaking whisperer,
Who whispers into the chests of mankind,
From among the Jinn and mankind.

Looking forward to your comment.

Thanks

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Marie,

As I stated before, I consider the hidden beings as seperate entities like human beings

I agree. If you sit quietly and watch your thoughts come and go, you will see that YOU are not the one orchestrating which thoughts come to you and you will realize that YOU are not your thoughts. This is verifyable.

Jaxal

SaLaM Idolfree

If you sit quietly and watch your thoughts come and go, you will see that YOU are not the one orchestrating which thoughts come to you and you will realize that YOU are not your thoughts. This is verifyable.

Our thoughts come from us. Unless ofcourse if i want to think otherwise. Its like when the george thinks its God telling him to make wars.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Jaxal,

Quote
If you sit quietly and watch your thoughts come and go, you will see that YOU are not the one orchestrating which thoughts come to you and you will realize that YOU are not your thoughts. This is verifyable.

Our thoughts come from us.

Did you even try the exercise?

There are two phases of this, there is THOUGHT DRIFT, and if you meditate on it, you will realize that you are not the one chooing whic thoughts and images come to your mind. REASONING is the process of taking control of your thoughts. Do me a favor and check it out first this time.