Al-ins/al-insan # al-jinn
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Peace JM,
My understanding is very close to the one of Muhammad Ali (except on the status of Iblis).
Thanks, lot's of reading material to cover.
Another possibility is that, since whatever conceals, hides or covers can be called jinn, the chiefs can also be called jinn beacuse they cover and protect common people.
Yes, I understand, but can the actual wording help us pinpoint it further, like anything thats covers or is it something covered/hidden? Like, as in Wakas's post, it's worth looking into as it seems like an important distinction...the verse you posted augments your understanding though.
Do you think there are no interchangeable words in the quran ?
My point simply was how is it being used differently and what are the differences present in both words being used supposedly for the same concept. I will look in it further as I need to know how they are being used and the occurences...to enhance understanding of the concepts behind them.
What is the meaning of the word "jinn" in your sentence ?
I left it untranslated, because whatever they are, they are existing alongside men/ins.
IHMO we should stick to the quran to grasp a better understanding of how term is used. The context of the verses where the word jinn is used is very important to give the word its best meaning, as well as the related verses.
Yes, I agree.
As there is a lot of reading material for me to cover and study some more, I think it might take me some time to go through this and figure out whats a good fit. Thanks once again for the help!
Regards.
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Peace be upon you Marie,
Is there any verse that says the SEE?
I am just interested to see if there is or not because I have a connection with ancient teachings that is starting to make more and more sense.
Peace
Sure bro, here is the verse that clearly says they can see you and you can't see them
"O children of Adam! let not the Shaitan cause you to fall into affliction as he expelled your parents from the garden, pulling off from them both their clothing that he might show them their evil inclinations, he surely sees you, he as well as his host, from whence you cannot see them; surely We have made the Shaitans to be the guardians of those who do not believe"
(27)
Clear as light mate
Peace be with you
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Peace Idolfree,
I have the progeny of iblis being the shayteen. Both shayteen and malaika are hidden(jinn). Since we are told that jinn are both good and bad, the controlled jinn are malaika and the uncontrolled are shayteen.
Yes, I was thinking about this, what I hope you can help me with is, if the progeny of iblis is shayteen and shayteen are jinn (uncontrolled), if one of the progeny would turn into the malaika, can it still be considered the progeny of Iblis or because of the turning...not the progeny any more? In which case, the progeny of iblis are only shayteen as long as they remain shayteen? This means that all of the progeny of iblis were shayteen once, and those malaika that turned would have originated as shayteen? Secondly, those malaika that turned uncontrolled would be then the progeny of iblis? It would also help knowing what you think the concept/definition of progeny is? Originating from?
Fisrt, I understand Al Insaan as "the visable" , not manking. Al insaan is opposite to "al jinn" the hidden". The Human is created of both (created in pairs).
When we look at the symbolism, al insaan, our outer visable shell, is created from clay, the inner beings are created from fire. It is our THOUGHTS within that form our outer being and conditions(visable).
he God says He does not change a persons condition until they change whatis WITHIN thie Nafs(spirit).
Yes, so that would mean that the inside/hidden is created before the outside according to the verse?
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Peace Kyle
Peace be upon you Marie,
Like mud (1761, 2312, 3711), dry clay (5514), dirt (225), the water (2130) I don't consider the fire (1527, 5515) symbolically.
How can they not be symbolic? We cant wet our finger and pull it off and shaoe it into a cup and saucer can we? D
This is only my understanding, that doesn't exclude others understanding like your point of view.
For me, there is a close connection between the creatures, soil and water.
They listen (721, 729, 7213)
They recognize the truth (722)
They believe in the guidance (7213).
quote cut short
Is there any verse that says the SEE?
I am just interested to see if there is or not because I have a connection with ancient teachings that is starting to make more and more sense.
- O Children of Adam, do not let the devil divert you as he evicted your parents from the paradise; he removed from them their protective layer to show them their wickedness. He and his tribe see you from where you do not see them. We have made the devils as allies for those who do not believe.
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Salam Nadia,
I would like to read your understanding further, would you say they are solely thoughts? Or would you say that they are seperate entities that operate as thoughts at times? (btw I agree with you about the literal creation from fire (fire of a scorching wind?))
I'd say that the hidden beings are seperate entities like human beings. Thoughts are a part of both the hidden beings and the human beings. Both they reason/reflect and can tell lies against the God. Both will be judged and rewarded.
Our emotions are also a part of us (joy, tears, laughter, jealousy, hatred, wrath ...).Shabir
5343 - vi And that He it is Who makes laugh, and makes weep. (Nations that establish His Rule will have inner happiness, whereas the others will be in misery). -
Peace sis Marie,
I'd say that the hidden beings are seperate entities like human beings. Thoughts are a part of both the hidden beings and the human beings. Both they reason/reflect and can tell lies against the God. Both will be judged and rewarded.
Our emotions are also a part of us (joy, tears, laughter, jealousy, hatred, wrath ...).Yes, that is also my current understanding
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Peace be upon you,
I am going to clarify my position in a new thread entitled "the hidden ones"
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Peace all,
As I stated before, I consider the hidden beings as seperate entities like human beings. Some verses can help us to clarify the relation between these two beings.
The following is not an exhaustive list, feel free to add other verses- Say If all the humans/mankind and the Jinn were to gather to bring a Reading like this, they could not come with its like, even if they were helping one another.
Neither the human beings, neither the hidden beings nor the human beings and the hidden beings together could not bring a Reading like this
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On that Day, no more questioning is asked of human or Jinn as to his sins.
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No human has ever touched them, nor Jinn.
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And we had thought that neither mankind nor the Jinn would ever utter a lie against God.
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From the evil of the sneaking whisperer,
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Who whispers into the chests of mankind,
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From among the Jinn and mankind.
Looking forward to your comment.
Thanks
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Peace be upon you Marie,
As I stated before, I consider the hidden beings as seperate entities like human beings
I agree. If you sit quietly and watch your thoughts come and go, you will see that YOU are not the one orchestrating which thoughts come to you and you will realize that YOU are not your thoughts. This is verifyable.
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SaLaM Idolfree
If you sit quietly and watch your thoughts come and go, you will see that YOU are not the one orchestrating which thoughts come to you and you will realize that YOU are not your thoughts. This is verifyable.
Our thoughts come from us. Unless ofcourse if i want to think otherwise. Its like when the george thinks its God telling him to make wars.
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Peace be upon you Jaxal,
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If you sit quietly and watch your thoughts come and go, you will see that YOU are not the one orchestrating which thoughts come to you and you will realize that YOU are not your thoughts. This is verifyable.Our thoughts come from us.
Did you even try the exercise?
There are two phases of this, there is THOUGHT DRIFT, and if you meditate on it, you will realize that you are not the one chooing whic thoughts and images come to your mind. REASONING is the process of taking control of your thoughts. Do me a favor and check it out first this time.
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SaLaM idolfree
I HAVE tried this. I like to 'think'. Especially in the nights. And i 'think' for hours sometimes. All my thoughts come from me. You make it sound like random images will come to mind. There is no such thing as 'random occurances'. If i ask to pick up a number from 1 - 10000 on the spot, the number you come up with isnt random either. Its just that your brain can think faster than you realize and by the time you actually SAY the number, your mind has calculated which number from the given range can truely be 'random'. It goes like this (not accurate but gives you a picture)
1] dont choose from the beginning fo the range.
2] dont choose from the end of the range.
3] dont choose from the first 100 number
4] dont choose from the last 100 numbers
5] much be in the center
6] process the range 1-10000
7] pics the number from almost between the range
8] gives the information to your speech center allowing you to say it.Now unless it is YOU who decides 'ok i will be smart and pick from the first 100' then you have already asked your mind to do that. The proces that follows is similar to above.
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Peace be upon you Jaxal,
I see you have not done it yet. Have you ever caught yourself one day humming a song , maybe even a song you dont even like? Where did it come from? Did you CONSCIOUSLY call forth this song, yes or no?
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Peace be upon you Jaxal,
Yes, from the "subconscious", and if you do the research, there is no proof of subconcious, its just a word scientists use to avoid saying "spirit" (nafs). If you say it is YOU who controls your subcpncious, then I guess you make your own heart beat as well, and you take the apple you eat and convert it to flesh? It is not YOU who controls these events. Do you agree yes or no?
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SaLaM idolfree
Wow. Ok. A subconcious mind is "aspects of the mind of which we are not directly conscious or aware." It cannot be put any simple than that. Now who controls the heart beat and the food digestion and sending the white blood cells where they are needed? the UNCONCIOUS MIND. The UNCONCIOUS MIND is a PART of our mind over which we dont have direct control. This same part gives us dreams. So
It is not YOU who controls these events.
Ofcouse its me! who else do you think is controlling it? The jinn? Its an automatic function of my brain. I dont have to worry about it becoz my UNCONCIOUS MIND is taking care of it. Its doing me a favor by doing it FOR ME. You cant do all that in your body. At any given time, your body and brain are processing a million functions just to keep you going. YOU want to take control of all that? A man cant do 5 things at the same time and you want to do 1 million things? Comon idolfree. My MIND is taking care of it. Ofcourse its me who is controling these events. Im just not aware of it. Thank God for that.
A better example would be when you type. Right now, im typing without looking at he keyboard. Do you think i hav special abilities? ofcourse not. Its my unconcious mind which is guiding my fingers where to press becoz it is so used to it that the data is stored in my brain. So its automatically feeding my CONCIOUS mind that data teling me " here is the location, press here". I make a concious decison based on the unconcious data being fed to me by my brain. This is how it works. There shouldnt be any complaining D
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Peace be upon you Jaxal,
Wow. Ok. A subconcious mind is "aspects of the mind of which we are not directly conscious or aware." It cannot be put any simple than that.
What you are calling subconcious mind is what "koran" calls "nafs". But it is not YOU, it is something which you are given charge of, or in most cases is in charge of YOU, but YOU are not your "subconcious mind".
Now who controls the heart beat and the food digestion and sending the white blood cells where they are needed? the UNCONCIOUS MIND.
Good. I'm glad you didnt say "Me".
The UNCONCIOUS MIND is a PART of our mind over which we dont have direct control.
What I am trying to get you to understand is that the Spirit(nafs) is not "you". Like your body, which is the densest part of the spirit(subconcious), "you" are not your body. If you look at a picture of te cells that you were made up of at 4 years old, and look at yourself now, everything is changed, but you still say "me". If your arm gets cut off, do you cease being "you"? Dont rush to answer these questions.
This same part gives us dreams.
Correct, and when is the last time you picked your own dream?
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It is not YOU who controls these events.Ofcouse its me! who else do you think is controlling it? The jinn?
Good answer!
Its an automatic function of my brain. I dont have to worry about it becoz my UNCONCIOUS MIND is taking care of it. Its doing me a favor by doing it FOR ME. You cant do all that in your body. At any given time, your body and brain are processing a million functions just to keep you going. YOU want to take control of all that? A man cant do 5 things at the same time and you want to do 1 million things? Comon idolfree. My MIND is taking care of it. Ofcourse its me who is controling these events. Im just not aware of it. Thank God for that.
Hmm, so if we take it all the way back, it was "you" who also formed your own body in your mothers womb? If not, when exactky did "you" take over these functions?
A better example would be when you type. Right now, im typing without looking at he keyboard. Do you think i hav special abilities? ofcourse not. Its my unconcious mind which is guiding my fingers where to press becoz it is so used to it that the data is stored in my brain. So its automatically feeding my CONCIOUS mind that data teling me " here is the location, press here". I make a concious decison based on the unconcious data being fed to me by my brain. This is how it works. There shouldnt be any complaining
Yes, we have the capability , through repitation, of giving things to the SPIRIT(nafs) to take over (we are gettig into salaat). But we are NOT our NAFS.
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SaLaM idolfree
What you are calling subconcious mind is what "koran" calls "nafs". But it is not YOU, it is something which you are given charge of, or in most cases is in charge of YOU, but YOU are not your "subconcious mind".
That is your opinion idolfree. The word for mind is 'aql' or 'zahan'.
What you are calling subconcious mind is what "koran" calls "nafs". But it is not YOU, it is something which you are given charge of, or in most cases is in charge of YOU, but YOU are not your "subconcious mind".
First of all, i dont believe spirit = nafs. I believe nafs = soul becoz the word for spirit is RUH Second, i do recognize that the that the spirit is seperate from the body. The brain is seperate from the spirit.
Correct, and when is the last time you picked your own dream?
Last night. Its called LUCID DREAMING.
Hmm, so if we take it all the way back, it was "you" who also formed your own body in your mothers womb? If not, when exactky did "you" take over these functions?
Im supprised you would think that. You are an intelligent person idolfree. when i was in my mother's womb then my mother's body was doing the work. Not me.
But we are NOT our NAFS.
No we are not. Hence why i say that everything we think of come from our mind. mind is not equal to nafs. mind and nafs are like night and day. Two seperate entities.
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hi Jaxal,
How would u define 'mind'?
And what according to u is the difference between mind and brain?Peace!
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SaLaM PM
I dont know how to explain it. but the 'mind' is the non physical aspect of the brain. What im trying to say is that 'mind' releates to the brain. For example the sentence "I saw her in my mind". This is not possible for the physical brain. But that is where the mind comes in. 'Mind' can never be releated to our hands or feet or hair or toes or fingers. Always the brain. The non physical aspect of our brain.