Myth of Islamic Scholars
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Peace omeiza. Masha-allah some excellent points.I hope we read this and increase in our awareness,and support humanity. Thanks for that post.
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Agreed.
To take it even further. The concept of Islam as the Quranic religion is a myth in itself. Think about it. God's knowledge definitely goes past a few words of a human language put into a book. He lets us know that by the passage that was referenced. The Koran is the guide and God's sign which is life is what will make the words of our guide more clear to us. Even the Koran is clear about that. So it doesn't directly have everything in it but it indirectly does. It has all that we need to guide us in everything, but some of that is direct and some of that is indirect guidance which refers us to the miracle which is the Universe that we live in and the use of the minds that God has given us to come to an understanding. (not debating or overcompensating for our states of ignorance).
Godbless,
Anwar -
Hi all,
The Koran is the guide and God's sign which is life is what will make the words of our guide more clear to us.
I agree. Quran is a guidance by Allah to mankind. Its not meant to give us all the answers. We are to seek knowledge and understand/learn, and that is what life is all about. Quran can be understood and realised only through life.
Peace!
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Peace peacefulmuslim pro-god and all. I think the posts on gods signs not being restricted to the quran are correct.Life experience and conscience/awareness are needed in addition to the quran. I agree with both of your understandings and commend them. Brother pro-god could it be possible that a broad and specific concept(eg the term islam) can have a general meaning which can be enhanced by the subjective understandings of others and so lead to a wider or deeper understanding of the term,while retaining its basic meaning. eg fulk in arabic broadly can mean something in an orbit or subjectively a ship. I would appreciate your input brother. Peace.
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Brother Enquierer,
I'm not into expanding meanings of words that mean specific things. I'm not into religious interpretation at all. That to me is conjecture and against the principles of truth. There is no need to understand the word Islam as more than what the word really means in the language of the Jahileeyah Arabs (when it comes to what the Koran means), and what it really represents in our modern times in its Middle Age and Modern Arabic sense (which should never be read into the Koran.)
Godbless,
ProGod -
Peace to all,
Great post, my note the verses regarding the following comment
Arabic as a human language is highly inadequate to convey the message of Allah. No wonder if the Oceans were to become ink and a person is to explain the words of Allah (in any human language), soon would the oceans become dry and yet the explanation is not completed even if the oceans were to be replaced.
"Say If the sea were ink for the words of my Lord, the sea would surely be consumed before the words of my Lord come to an end, though We were to bring the like of that (sea) to add"
(109)
"And were every tree that is in the earth (made into) pens and the sea (to supply it with ink), with seven more seas to increase it, the words of Allah would not come to an end; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise. "
(27)
The verses actually never suggested that the ocean or sea will become empty because someone will take too many words to document the explanation of the the words of Allah, the verses only state if all the trees on earth are turned into pens and all the oceans/seas turned into ink to record the words of Allah AS IS "NOT EXPLANATION" the oceans will run out before the words of Allah come to an end, even if we get another oceans/seas and turned it into ink for further supply of ink, this means Allah has many words to say, it does not mean at all that you need many words to explain the words of our God
Consequently this undersatning "Arabic as a human language is highly inadequate to convey the message of Allah" must be flawed because it was based on the wrong understanding regarding the oceans and the words of Allah verse "No offence to the brother who posted it"
I also see it like an insult to God because it simply means Allah has chose an inadequate langauge to convey His last message to humanity before they are forced to give account in fornt of Him in one hell of a distressful day
I wonder how He chose an inadequate language then preserved that message in its original inadequate language as well challenged humanity, jinns and other gods "if any exist" to write a sura like it in this inadequate language called Arabic? yet no one managed to come up with some sura based on this inadequate language for more than 1400 years
Peace be with All
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Peace to all,
Great post, my note the verses regarding the following comment
Arabic as a human language is highly inadequate to convey the message of Allah. No wonder if the Oceans were to become ink and a person is to explain the words of Allah (in any human language), soon would the oceans become dry and yet the explanation is not completed even if the oceans were to be replaced.
"Say If the sea were ink for the words of my Lord, the sea would surely be consumed before the words of my Lord come to an end, though We were to bring the like of that (sea) to add"
(109)
"And were every tree that is in the earth (made into) pens and the sea (to supply it with ink), with seven more seas to increase it, the words of Allah would not come to an end; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise. "
(27)
The verses actually never suggested that the ocean or sea will become empty because someone will take too many words to document the explanation of the the words of Allah, the verses only state if all the trees on earth are turned into pens and all the oceans/seas turned into ink to record the words of Allah AS IS "NOT EXPLANATION" the oceans will run out before the words of Allah come to an end, even if we get another oceans/seas and turned it into ink for further supply of ink, this means Allah has many words to say, it does not mean at all that you need many words to explain the words of our God
Consequently this undersatning "Arabic as a human language is highly inadequate to convey the message of Allah" must be flawed because it was based on the wrong understanding regarding the oceans and the words of Allah verse "No offence to the brother who posted it"
I also see it like an insult to God because it simply means Allah has chose an inadequate langauge to convey His last message to humanity before they are forced to give account in fornt of Him in one hell of a distressful day
I wonder how He chose an inadequate language then preserved that message in its original inadequate language as well challenged humanity, jinns and other gods "if any exist" to write a sura like it in this inadequate language called Arabic? yet no one managed to come up with some sura based on this inadequate language for more than 1400 years
Peace be with All
Salaam AhmedBahgat.
"The words of Allah are complete in TRUTH and JUSTICE"
"We have not left anything out in the BOOK"
If the words of Allah are already complete in the Qur'an, what are the other words that we are talking about and what is our concern about those words?
Human beings invented language to communicate. The language can not be richer than their level of awareness.
Do the arabs have encompassing knowledge to have invented adequate language and the language is still evolving?
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Salaam AhmedBahgat.
Peace bro
"The words of Allah are complete in TRUTH and JUSTICE"
"We have not left anything out in the BOOK"
True but you are missing the point, the words that are complete are what we need in this test to pass it, these words are the guidance sent by our Creator in His preserved Quran and any previous non preserved scriptures only. NOT ALL HIS WORDS
On the other hand, the verses about the oceans cover ALL Allah words NOT what He revealed to us only
what was revealed to us was complete from the test point of view not from Allah words point of view, He does not need to overwhelm us with things that we don't need know to pass this test
If the words of Allah are already complete in the Qur'an, what are the other words that we are talking about and what is our concern about those words?
it is any other word that was not told to us, we have been given the complete words to pass the test and prosper NOT ALL THE WORDS THAT ALLAH KNOWS
Human beings invented language to communicate. The language can not be richer than their level of awareness.
I'm not 100% sure about that, because the Quran says that Allah was the one who made us different in our native languages, but I guess whatever langauge Allah will choose to give us as a guide must be complete from the guidance perspective only, HE DID EXACTLY THE SAME WITH THE TORAH, in fact He said the same about the Torah that it was COMPLETE AND HAVE EVERY EXAMPLE WE NEED TO PASS THE TEST
I can show you the verses, now I know the Torah was not revealed in Arabic, but whatever langauge it was revealed in, it was complete and perfect as the Quran said about it, but the torah has a problem, it was corrupted by the sick and flawed humans. The Arabic use was needed for the built in challenge that comes with the Quran which is to write a sura like it in Arabic.
Do the arabs have encompassing knowledge to have invented adequate language and the language is still evolving?
well, I don't think that any Arab can reach the level of the Quran Arabic language, that is why no one managed to write an arabic sura like the Quran in 1400 years and we are still counting
so the Questions has no merit because Allah didn't use a language that humans invented rather a language that HE INVENTED, so when He uses any language I'm sure He will use it in the most perfect manner, that manner is beyond any human reach for sure, you just can't compare our God with us
peace
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Salam
Regarding the Oceans being ink and trees as pen....i understand this as referring to Allah's blessing. Blessing bestowed upon us and all of Allah's creation. As a cell biologist, I can assure you that we will not be able to write 100% of all Allah's blessings; just check out how much research time is spent and how many papers are written for one receptor on the cell. And there are 1000s of them on each cell. And Allah say that the creation of the Universe is indeed more complicated than that of the creation of man. However, this does not stop us from writing, we should write our research down so others can read, learn and benefit.
Peace!
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Salaam.
There is certainly a universal law and nature. Life has a meaning. Learning, without this acknowledgement, would not have been a possibility.
The universal law of existence must be complete enough to take care of the hierarchy of creation if not; there will be the need for a parallel law.
When there is a parallel law to the first law, there will be two independent lines of existence. That may be an indication that there are two sources for existence or two 'gods.'
The wise God would not have reason to create two parallel laws. In that case, all the laws are based on a single mother law of existence.
Because of the orderliness in existence, it has become unavoidable to run into the organisational structures and the complexities as we find them today.
Instead of the billions of organised cells in the body, Allah could have made the body just a single entity that do not need the integration of components. That would have called for a parallel law in existence.
Since there must be no parallel law, here we are with all the structures and the complexities as found today.
With reference to the nature/mother law, every other law or body of knowledge is explanation.
Allah sent His book with the fundamentals and then the explanations.
The Muhkamat are the fundamentals and the parameters for understanding other verses of the Qur'an.
Allah is absolutely just and all-powerful. Allah has encompassing knowledge. These are some of the parameters.
There are ambiguious verses in the Qur'an not because Allah wanted it that way but because the language was inadequate hence the need for the parameters.
The clear fact that we can give different interpretations to the verses of the Qur'an is the proof of the inadequacy of the language.
We use the parameters to clear the ambiguity found in the human invented language.
Allah did not invent the language because Allah would have needed (in that sense) to first teach us the language. Instead we find Allah saying that He sent the book in plain Arabic which means the spoken Arabic at that time.
Part of al-Qur'an explains the other.
I agree with bmbmm but the blessings he referred to are the explanations for the Qur'an.
All prophets were sent to preach LA ILAHA ILLA ALLAH. All other things are explanation for this.
Salaam.
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Hi all,
There are ambiguious verses in the Qur'an not because Allah wanted it that way but because the language was inadequate hence the need for the parameters.
I wouldnt say Arabic is an inadequate language.
It's a man made language and Quran is in arabic, so that people of that time and place who recieved it, could understand the message .
Allah used the kind of explanations and descriptions which the people of that time and place could easily understand.Allah could/would be able to convey His message in any language adequately.
Quran has ambiguous verses coz they were meant to be so and God wants us to think and ponder, over them.The clear fact that we can give different interpretations to the verses of the Qur'an is the proof of the inadequacy of the language.
I would humby disagree.
God can convey His message very clearly in any language.
Some of The verses of QUran have deeper meaning/sense to it, becoz God wanted it to be so.Allah did not invent the language because Allah would have needed (in that sense) to first teach us the language. Instead we find Allah saying that He sent the book in plain Arabic which means the spoken Arabic at that time.
Yes, The language used in Quran is the one which people of that place and time could understand and comprehend.
If Allah had conveyed the message in a different language, the people would not have undertood the message.If the words of Allah are already complete in the Qur'an, what are the other words that we are talking about and what is our concern about those words?
Quran is meant as a guidance from God to mankind, for man to be able to live his life as he is meant to. So, in that respect, Quran is a complete book and conveys the message its supposed to convey. The rest of wisdom and knowledge is for us to discover and strive for, on our own, with God's guidance/favour/will.
Quran is not meant to contain all of the facts, wisdom, knowledge.All of the wisdom, knowledge that ever exsists is known to Allah, and If Allah decided to pen down all that he knew, He would have so much words that 3127 And if all the trees on earth were pens and the ocean (were ink), with seven oceans behind it to add to its (supply), yet would not the words of Allah be exhausted (in the writing) for Allah is Exalted in Power, full of Wisdom.
Peace!
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Well said Peacfulmuslim
peace be with you
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By the name of Allah.
I wouldnt say Arabic is an inadequate language.
A language that is not encompassing/perfect is inadequate to convey a perfect message. For the fact that Arabic language is still evolving is enough proof that it was not perfect.
Allah could/would be able to convey His message in any language adequately.
True. Conveying and understanding adequately are two different things. Allah rely on a context without which His message can never be understood adequately and it is al-Aql.
Quran has ambiguous verses coz they were meant to be so and God wants us to think and ponder, over them.
The goal of communication is understanding and hence the need for clarity of statements. What is the wisdom in creating ambiguous statement when there is the option of making a clear statement? Does Allah need that politics?
In Intellectual/Scientific conversation, we try to avoid ambiguity as much as possible hence all the definitions and the jargons.
Allah wants us first to get the facts of His statements clearly and then to contemplate over its implications and its application to our practical life. An ambiguous statement can only lead to doubts.
The clear fact that we can give different interpretations to the verses of the Qur'an is the proof of the inadequacy of the language.
I would humby disagree.
God can convey His message very clearly in any language.
Some of The verses of QUran have deeper meaning/sense to it, becoz God wanted it to be so.We design legal terminologies to run away from ambiguity. Language is not meant to be deceptive.
An ambiguous statement is a statement that has different interpretations ? a statement that is not clear. Deeper meanings do not oppose the deep meanings but are dependent on them.
If the words of Allah are already complete in the Qur'an, what are the other words that we are talking about and what is our concern about those words?
Quran is meant as a guidance from God to mankind, for man to be able to live his life as he is meant to. So, in that respect, Quran is a complete book and conveys the message its supposed to convey. The rest of wisdom and knowledge is for us to discover and strive for, on our own, with God's guidance/favour/will.
Quran is not meant to contain all of the facts, wisdom, knowledge.The one you refer to as the rest of wisdom and knowledge are equally meant for human guidance but in elaborate form. Everything is explanation for al-Qur?an if not it is falsehood.
Al-Qur?an contains the mother wisdom upon which all the other so called wisdom are dependent.
Wisdom is the benefit/meaning of a thing to us (human beings). In matter of our guidance/ultimate benefit, Allah has not left anything unsaid. Other things are explanations for what is already contained in the Qur?an.
All of the wisdom, knowledge that ever exsists is known to Allah, and If Allah decided to pen down all that he knew, He would have so much words that 3127 And if all the trees on earth were pens and the ocean (were ink), with seven oceans behind it to add to its (supply), yet would not the words of Allah be exhausted (in the writing) for Allah is Exalted in Power, full of Wisdom.
All I have said is that all the other wisdom, knowledge are rather explanations of the present Qur?an.
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Hi Omeiza,
I wouldnt say Arabic is an inadequate language.
A language that is not encompassing/perfect is inadequate to convey a perfect message. For the fact that Arabic language is still evolving is enough proof that it was not perfect.
Let me try to explain.
Quran is in arabic and in that form of arabic, which the people of that time and place knew, so that they could understand the message.
The purpose of any language is to convey/communicate. In that respect, arabic was used in Quran.Now, is arabic as a language flawless, perfect? Perhaps not coz its man made. For that matter, no language is perfect or better. Language is just a mean of communication.
And Quran is not about the language. Its about the message.Now, is Quran incomplete or restricted becoz of the inadequacy of arabic?ofcourse not.
U see, any language's purpose is the comprehension. As long as we can do that with a language, its good enough. God perfectly conveyed what He wished to convey in Quran. He could do the same in any language. The idea is to get the people recieveing it to understand. With that, the purpose of the language is served.
Quran is, as it was meant to be. Allah has no restrictions. Allah can do anything He wills.
So, what I dont agree to, isThere are ambiguious verses in the Qur'an not because Allah wanted it that way but because the language was inadequate hence the need for the parameters.
Allah could/would be able to convey His message in any language adequately.
True. Conveying and understanding adequately are two different things. Allah rely on a context without which His message can never be understood adequately and it is al-Aql.
Understanding the language spoken to and understanding the real truth/wisdom in the verses are two different things.
But conveying has to be in a language that can be understood.
The truth/wisdom of those verses can be not understood by those who dont have faith and who have made up their mind that they dont want to understand truth.Quran has ambiguous verses coz they were meant to be so and God wants us to think and ponder, over them.
The goal of communication is understanding and hence the need for clarity of statements. What is the wisdom in creating ambiguous statement when there is the option of making a clear statement? Does Allah need that politics?
In Intellectual/Scientific conversation, we try to avoid ambiguity as much as possible hence all the definitions and the jargons.
Allah wants us first to get the facts of His statements clearly and then to contemplate over its implications and its application to our practical life. An ambiguous statement can only lead to doubts.How many verses in Quran are ambigious, according to u?
Is the whole Quran ambiguous?
It is not. It has clear messages all through out.
And some verses have deeper meaning to it, for man to think and ponder.
And sometimes, wisdom is best revealed through a food for thought.We design legal terminologies to run away from ambiguity. Language is not meant to be deceptive.
An ambiguous statement is a statement that has different interpretations ? a statement that is not clear. Deeper meanings do not oppose the deep meanings but are dependent on them.Which verses are u referring?
Please clarify.If the words of Allah are already complete in the Qur'an, what are the other words that we are talking about and what is our concern about those words?
Quran is meant as a guidance from God to mankind, for man to be able to live his life as he is meant to. So, in that respect, Quran is a complete book and conveys the message its supposed to convey. The rest of wisdom and knowledge is for us to discover and strive for, on our own, with God's guidance/favour/will.
Quran is not meant to contain all of the facts, wisdom, knowledge.The one you refer to as the rest of wisdom and knowledge are equally meant for human guidance but in elaborate form. Everything is explanation for al-Qur?an if not it is falsehood.
Al-Qur?an contains the mother wisdom upon which all the other so called wisdom are dependent.
Wisdom is the benefit/meaning of a thing to us (human beings). In matter of our guidance/ultimate benefit, Allah has not left anything unsaid. Other things are explanations for what is already contained in the Qur?an.I would kind of agree. In the sense, I would say Quran contains the basic truth.
Quran and all the truth that exsists in entirety explain and glorify God. Quran is a guidance containing the basic truth which God revealed directly to mankind when they were lost.All of the wisdom, knowledge that ever exsists is known to Allah, and If Allah decided to pen down all that he knew, He would have so much words that 3127 And if all the trees on earth were pens and the ocean (were ink), with seven oceans behind it to add to its (supply), yet would not the words of Allah be exhausted (in the writing) for Allah is Exalted in Power, full of Wisdom.
All I have said is that all the other wisdom, knowledge are rather explanations of the present Qur?an.
I kind of agree.
Quran contains truth, and it is a guidance from God directly. While all truth/wisdom that exsists is also from God and is revealed to man from time to time, as he strives for it, and when God wills.Peace!
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Shoud there be a Religious Scholar? Islam is not a Religion and we have these so called Islamic Scholars, who everyone approach....i am confused why and how this happened?
Muslims of the past can't get rid of the need for priests I guess.
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Disagreed. To have scholars in al-islaam , i.e people who are experts in the understanding of al-islaam cannot be a bad thing unless
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they professionalise it, they seek wealth in exchange for studying the ayaat.
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they formalise it, they say that unless you come through our institution, you're not a scholar.
sunnism's done both of the above. Quranism will too, when the time comes. It's an inescapable sunna.
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Al-islaam exists in the world and also in al-quraan. To understand it in both dimensions, study needs to be performed. People who have studied longer and deeper should be approached in order to get oneself up to speed. I have benefitted much from such consultations.