Myth of Islamic Scholars

bmbmm

Salam

Regarding the Oceans being ink and trees as pen....i understand this as referring to Allah's blessing. Blessing bestowed upon us and all of Allah's creation. As a cell biologist, I can assure you that we will not be able to write 100% of all Allah's blessings; just check out how much research time is spent and how many papers are written for one receptor on the cell. And there are 1000s of them on each cell. And Allah say that the creation of the Universe is indeed more complicated than that of the creation of man. However, this does not stop us from writing, we should write our research down so others can read, learn and benefit.

Peace!

Omeiza

Salaam.

There is certainly a universal law and nature. Life has a meaning. Learning, without this acknowledgement, would not have been a possibility.

The universal law of existence must be complete enough to take care of the hierarchy of creation if not; there will be the need for a parallel law.

When there is a parallel law to the first law, there will be two independent lines of existence. That may be an indication that there are two sources for existence or two 'gods.'

The wise God would not have reason to create two parallel laws. In that case, all the laws are based on a single mother law of existence.

Because of the orderliness in existence, it has become unavoidable to run into the organisational structures and the complexities as we find them today.

Instead of the billions of organised cells in the body, Allah could have made the body just a single entity that do not need the integration of components. That would have called for a parallel law in existence.

Since there must be no parallel law, here we are with all the structures and the complexities as found today.

With reference to the nature/mother law, every other law or body of knowledge is explanation.

Allah sent His book with the fundamentals and then the explanations.

The Muhkamat are the fundamentals and the parameters for understanding other verses of the Qur'an.

Allah is absolutely just and all-powerful. Allah has encompassing knowledge. These are some of the parameters.

There are ambiguious verses in the Qur'an not because Allah wanted it that way but because the language was inadequate hence the need for the parameters.

The clear fact that we can give different interpretations to the verses of the Qur'an is the proof of the inadequacy of the language.

We use the parameters to clear the ambiguity found in the human invented language.

Allah did not invent the language because Allah would have needed (in that sense) to first teach us the language. Instead we find Allah saying that He sent the book in plain Arabic which means the spoken Arabic at that time.

Part of al-Qur'an explains the other.

I agree with bmbmm but the blessings he referred to are the explanations for the Qur'an.

All prophets were sent to preach LA ILAHA ILLA ALLAH. All other things are explanation for this.

Salaam.

unknownuser

Hi all,

There are ambiguious verses in the Qur'an not because Allah wanted it that way but because the language was inadequate hence the need for the parameters.

I wouldnt say Arabic is an inadequate language.
It's a man made language and Quran is in arabic, so that people of that time and place who recieved it, could understand the message .
Allah used the kind of explanations and descriptions which the people of that time and place could easily understand.

Allah could/would be able to convey His message in any language adequately.
Quran has ambiguous verses coz they were meant to be so and God wants us to think and ponder, over them.

The clear fact that we can give different interpretations to the verses of the Qur'an is the proof of the inadequacy of the language.

I would humby disagree.
God can convey His message very clearly in any language.
Some of The verses of QUran have deeper meaning/sense to it, becoz God wanted it to be so.

Allah did not invent the language because Allah would have needed (in that sense) to first teach us the language. Instead we find Allah saying that He sent the book in plain Arabic which means the spoken Arabic at that time.

Yes, The language used in Quran is the one which people of that place and time could understand and comprehend.
If Allah had conveyed the message in a different language, the people would not have undertood the message.

If the words of Allah are already complete in the Qur'an, what are the other words that we are talking about and what is our concern about those words?

Quran is meant as a guidance from God to mankind, for man to be able to live his life as he is meant to. So, in that respect, Quran is a complete book and conveys the message its supposed to convey. The rest of wisdom and knowledge is for us to discover and strive for, on our own, with God's guidance/favour/will.
Quran is not meant to contain all of the facts, wisdom, knowledge.

All of the wisdom, knowledge that ever exsists is known to Allah, and If Allah decided to pen down all that he knew, He would have so much words that 3127 And if all the trees on earth were pens and the ocean (were ink), with seven oceans behind it to add to its (supply), yet would not the words of Allah be exhausted (in the writing) for Allah is Exalted in Power, full of Wisdom.

Peace!

unknownuser

Well said Peacfulmuslim

peace be with you

Omeiza

By the name of Allah.

I wouldnt say Arabic is an inadequate language.

A language that is not encompassing/perfect is inadequate to convey a perfect message. For the fact that Arabic language is still evolving is enough proof that it was not perfect.

Allah could/would be able to convey His message in any language adequately.

True. Conveying and understanding adequately are two different things. Allah rely on a context without which His message can never be understood adequately and it is al-Aql.

Quran has ambiguous verses coz they were meant to be so and God wants us to think and ponder, over them.

The goal of communication is understanding and hence the need for clarity of statements. What is the wisdom in creating ambiguous statement when there is the option of making a clear statement? Does Allah need that politics?

In Intellectual/Scientific conversation, we try to avoid ambiguity as much as possible hence all the definitions and the jargons.

Allah wants us first to get the facts of His statements clearly and then to contemplate over its implications and its application to our practical life. An ambiguous statement can only lead to doubts.

The clear fact that we can give different interpretations to the verses of the Qur'an is the proof of the inadequacy of the language.

I would humby disagree.
God can convey His message very clearly in any language.
Some of The verses of QUran have deeper meaning/sense to it, becoz God wanted it to be so.

We design legal terminologies to run away from ambiguity. Language is not meant to be deceptive.

An ambiguous statement is a statement that has different interpretations ? a statement that is not clear. Deeper meanings do not oppose the deep meanings but are dependent on them.

If the words of Allah are already complete in the Qur'an, what are the other words that we are talking about and what is our concern about those words?

Quran is meant as a guidance from God to mankind, for man to be able to live his life as he is meant to. So, in that respect, Quran is a complete book and conveys the message its supposed to convey. The rest of wisdom and knowledge is for us to discover and strive for, on our own, with God's guidance/favour/will.
Quran is not meant to contain all of the facts, wisdom, knowledge.

The one you refer to as the rest of wisdom and knowledge are equally meant for human guidance but in elaborate form. Everything is explanation for al-Qur?an if not it is falsehood.

Al-Qur?an contains the mother wisdom upon which all the other so called wisdom are dependent.

Wisdom is the benefit/meaning of a thing to us (human beings). In matter of our guidance/ultimate benefit, Allah has not left anything unsaid. Other things are explanations for what is already contained in the Qur?an.

All of the wisdom, knowledge that ever exsists is known to Allah, and If Allah decided to pen down all that he knew, He would have so much words that 3127 And if all the trees on earth were pens and the ocean (were ink), with seven oceans behind it to add to its (supply), yet would not the words of Allah be exhausted (in the writing) for Allah is Exalted in Power, full of Wisdom.

All I have said is that all the other wisdom, knowledge are rather explanations of the present Qur?an.

unknownuser

Hi Omeiza,

I wouldnt say Arabic is an inadequate language.

A language that is not encompassing/perfect is inadequate to convey a perfect message. For the fact that Arabic language is still evolving is enough proof that it was not perfect.

Let me try to explain.
Quran is in arabic and in that form of arabic, which the people of that time and place knew, so that they could understand the message.
The purpose of any language is to convey/communicate. In that respect, arabic was used in Quran.

Now, is arabic as a language flawless, perfect? Perhaps not coz its man made. For that matter, no language is perfect or better. Language is just a mean of communication.
And Quran is not about the language. Its about the message.

Now, is Quran incomplete or restricted becoz of the inadequacy of arabic?ofcourse not.
U see, any language's purpose is the comprehension. As long as we can do that with a language, its good enough. God perfectly conveyed what He wished to convey in Quran. He could do the same in any language. The idea is to get the people recieveing it to understand. With that, the purpose of the language is served.
Quran is, as it was meant to be. Allah has no restrictions. Allah can do anything He wills.
So, what I dont agree to, is

There are ambiguious verses in the Qur'an not because Allah wanted it that way but because the language was inadequate hence the need for the parameters.

Allah could/would be able to convey His message in any language adequately.

True. Conveying and understanding adequately are two different things. Allah rely on a context without which His message can never be understood adequately and it is al-Aql.

Understanding the language spoken to and understanding the real truth/wisdom in the verses are two different things.
But conveying has to be in a language that can be understood.
The truth/wisdom of those verses can be not understood by those who dont have faith and who have made up their mind that they dont want to understand truth.

Quran has ambiguous verses coz they were meant to be so and God wants us to think and ponder, over them.

The goal of communication is understanding and hence the need for clarity of statements. What is the wisdom in creating ambiguous statement when there is the option of making a clear statement? Does Allah need that politics?
In Intellectual/Scientific conversation, we try to avoid ambiguity as much as possible hence all the definitions and the jargons.
Allah wants us first to get the facts of His statements clearly and then to contemplate over its implications and its application to our practical life. An ambiguous statement can only lead to doubts.

How many verses in Quran are ambigious, according to u?
Is the whole Quran ambiguous?
It is not. It has clear messages all through out.
And some verses have deeper meaning to it, for man to think and ponder.
And sometimes, wisdom is best revealed through a food for thought.

We design legal terminologies to run away from ambiguity. Language is not meant to be deceptive.
An ambiguous statement is a statement that has different interpretations ? a statement that is not clear. Deeper meanings do not oppose the deep meanings but are dependent on them.

Which verses are u referring?
Please clarify.

If the words of Allah are already complete in the Qur'an, what are the other words that we are talking about and what is our concern about those words?

Quran is meant as a guidance from God to mankind, for man to be able to live his life as he is meant to. So, in that respect, Quran is a complete book and conveys the message its supposed to convey. The rest of wisdom and knowledge is for us to discover and strive for, on our own, with God's guidance/favour/will.
Quran is not meant to contain all of the facts, wisdom, knowledge.

The one you refer to as the rest of wisdom and knowledge are equally meant for human guidance but in elaborate form. Everything is explanation for al-Qur?an if not it is falsehood.
Al-Qur?an contains the mother wisdom upon which all the other so called wisdom are dependent.
Wisdom is the benefit/meaning of a thing to us (human beings). In matter of our guidance/ultimate benefit, Allah has not left anything unsaid. Other things are explanations for what is already contained in the Qur?an.

I would kind of agree. In the sense, I would say Quran contains the basic truth.
Quran and all the truth that exsists in entirety explain and glorify God. Quran is a guidance containing the basic truth which God revealed directly to mankind when they were lost.

All of the wisdom, knowledge that ever exsists is known to Allah, and If Allah decided to pen down all that he knew, He would have so much words that 3127 And if all the trees on earth were pens and the ocean (were ink), with seven oceans behind it to add to its (supply), yet would not the words of Allah be exhausted (in the writing) for Allah is Exalted in Power, full of Wisdom.

All I have said is that all the other wisdom, knowledge are rather explanations of the present Qur?an.

I kind of agree.
Quran contains truth, and it is a guidance from God directly. While all truth/wisdom that exsists is also from God and is revealed to man from time to time, as he strives for it, and when God wills.

Peace!

bmbmm

Shoud there be a Religious Scholar? Islam is not a Religion and we have these so called Islamic Scholars, who everyone approach....i am confused why and how this happened?

Andya_Primanda

Shoud there be a Religious Scholar? Islam is not a Religion and we have these so called Islamic Scholars, who everyone approach....i am confused why and how this happened?

Muslims of the past can't get rid of the need for priests I guess.

bmbmm

You are right, they just follow what the christian and jews did. I hope one day the world will realise that these so called islamic scholars are the real fitna.

mquran

Disagreed. To have scholars in al-islaam , i.e people who are experts in the understanding of al-islaam cannot be a bad thing unless

they professionalise it, they seek wealth in exchange for studying the ayaat.
they formalise it, they say that unless you come through our institution, you're not a scholar.

sunnism's done both of the above. Quranism will too, when the time comes. It's an inescapable sunna.

bmbmm

How can we have experts in Islam? Islam is a way of life, so I think experties in Islam, is universal i.e. its a combined intelect of various experts.

mquran

Al-islaam exists in the world and also in al-quraan. To understand it in both dimensions, study needs to be performed. People who have studied longer and deeper should be approached in order to get oneself up to speed. I have benefitted much from such consultations.

bmbmm

I agree with you mquran. I only have problem with the title Islamic Scholar; what scholarship is this?

mquran

It's a scholarship of life. Its a field quite unknown to academia but vital for us all.

unknownuser

Those scholars was refered to in the Quran as "The people who have knowledge"

I'm not saying I agree with the title, in fact I don't agree with the scholar title because people may call themselves whatever but at the end of the day their knowledge and sense will be the only things that count

The Quran also stated that this knowledge is given by Allah to anyone and we should ask Him to increase our knowledge

The Quran also told us that the humans who are the most to fear Allah are the ones with knowledge "Al Olamaa"

peace

phoenix1

peace

I understand what you're saying Ahmed, but there are always people who are better at something than others. Like athletes. In the same way, people have understanding of the Quran on different levels. That doesnt mean there has to be a select group of "olema" who decide everything. Being knowledgeble is not a proffesion or even a title. Everyone has knowledge to a certain extent and we all have the ability to gain more knowledge.
But the bottom line always is, to be absolutely sure of something, we have to find it out for ourselves. And following the "ones with knowledge" without having any knowledge ourselves means we're following those people and not God.

unknownuser

peace

I understand what you're saying Ahmed, but there are always people who are better at something than others. Like athletes. In the same way, people have understanding of the Quran on different levels. That doesnt mean there has to be a select group of "olema" who decide everything. Being knowledgeble is not a proffesion or even a title. Everyone has knowledge to a certain extent and we all have the ability to gain more knowledge.
But the bottom line always is, to be absolutely sure of something, we have to find it out for ourselves. And following the "ones with knowledge" without having any knowledge ourselves means we're following those people and not God.

Of course bro here is the Quran confirming what you just said

13- And We have made every man's actions to cling to his neck, and We will bring forth to him on the resurrection day a book which he will find wide open

14- Read your book; your own self is sufficient as a reckoner against you this day.

15- Whoever goes aright, for his own soul does he go aright; and whoever goes astray, to its detriment only does he go astray nor can the bearer of a burden bear the burden of another, nor do We chastise until We raise a messenger.

(13)

(14)

(15)

Peace

phoenix1

peace

thanks.
and is that your car in your avatar?

unknownuser

peace

thanks.
and is that your car in your avatar?

Peace bro

yeh man the Quran is just an amazing book, it has all the answers to any question regarding God, this testing life, death and the judgment

For the photo bro she is my second wife, I married her over 10 years ago and our relation is damn strong and I tell you mate unlike the first wife, my second always listens to me where ever I tell her to go, I love her bro. my first wife surely very jealouse of her, true lol

Peace

Andya_Primanda

To get things back on topic...

I agree that some people will have more knowledge of some things than others, they are the ulama--'knowledgeable men'. I don't have problems with the existence of the ulama. The problem would be the fact that the so-called ulama of religious knowledge are sometimes elevated by the masses/authorities (or even by themselves) to the status of priests where they have absolute authority.

I think most people here would agree with that.