the reading(quran) is not the title of any book
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salam.
Peace be upon you Saladin,
I want to concentrate on your last statement, as it reveals something important.
and now that the 114 chaptered book is complete , "THIS" can easily refer to the it .
By the law of relativity, this means that BEFORE the 114 chaptered book was completed , it was DIFFICULT to refer "THIS" to the "114 chapter book". Of course it would be difficult, and thats the point. Its like me giving you a page from the 114 chapter book and saying "THIS is the book, in it....", but all you have is a page! D
even back when Quran was not completed , "THIS" could refer to the kitab that was being compiled , being written down ,or being recited to the nabi by gabriel . even if it was a single page , it was a kitab .
just what Ahmed said
The argument of refering to it as such while it was not finished yet has really no merit
for example if it took me 5 years to write a book, during all these years I can refer to it as a book, why not?
... But at the very same time, we ALL have the universe all around us , but most are sleep, the AWE of creation has dulled to us. Al Kitaab is Universal LAW, that we must all read and study. Surely the God has not created all this in vain.
the Quran is now complete . it has reached its full size . on the other hand , the universe is expanding as we speak . it has not reached its full size yet . it is not complete . so according to your arguement , "THIS" cannot refer to the universe .
no offense , but this one , alongwith your previous("Gods never runs out of words") arguements carry no weight .
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Peace be upon you Lote Tree,
...erm thats not verification is it? Verification is 2+2=4. That is verification.
Yes, and as many times as you add 2+2 and get 4, the same amount of times you will look out into space and never find an end.
..erm but we can say 2+2=4 always...we don't have to continually look up to space and continually revise our model of the Universe do we?
But we are continually revising our model of the Universe. The more knowlege we accumulate the better model we will built.You said Universe has no end - that is not verification chap - however you write it. The truth is you and I don't know only you claim that Universe has no end. And not knowig is not verification wink best answer is and the humble answer is I don't know if the Universe has no ends or begining.
Just like sticks turning to snakes. You can throw sticks all day, they will never turn into snakes in the physical world.
That is irrelevant to your statement that Universe has no end. Simply you don't know that. You only claim that you do.
But some might expect that one day we will find an end to the universe, i guess the vision is some kind of eggshell, but what would be on the other side of the "MATTER" (what else can DEFINE/LIMIT but matter?).
We only have models of the Universe. We know nothing for sure and our model only lasts until observational evidence says its false.
Incorrect, there had to have been some bodiless intelligence that WILLED the ENERGY/MATTER to expand and solidify into forms, ALL based on a strict mathematical pattern (see periodic table of elements for the pattern) which gives evidence of intelligence.
There is not OBJECTIVE PROOF of this, even mathematics breaks down at the moment of the Big Bang. So mathematics is not sacred.
Search for OBJECTIVE truth continues Kyle...
Always
Ditto! Chap Ditto!
For you info - OBJECITVE science says Universe had a begining
Thats not objective science, that is someones opinion.
Universe having a begining is based on scientific model. So this model can be tested against observation. Thats how science works. And so far cosmic background radiation is the only observable evidence of the Universe having a begining. This is not opinion of some individual but based on scientific principles.
As I explained above, the mathematics gives evidence of an intellegence before the so called Big Bang.
No. Mathematics breaks down at the point of Big Bang!
All that can be induced is that there is a constand ebb and flow, out and in- just like our breath(inSPIRation, exPIRe), based on a bodiless intelligence that is WILLING upon Energy/Matter according to a strict LAW (mathematics).
That can be a matter of opinion since mathematics breaks down at the point of the Big Bang?
What you are calling "End", was the same state as teh "beginning" you are trying to defend, so what in life observances would make you think the same intelligence that Expanded teh energy/matter the first time wont do it again?
See above.
Doint we see life and death constantly? What other observation could lead your thinking that it would all end at the beginning?
Who said ending? - Universe could be cyclic?
We work in the realm of laws. I am saying Energy has been proven to not be destroyed, this is objectively proven.
Yes, that is so. So how does that prove Bodiless Intelligence? Where is the objective proof of this?
You (or scientists you are referencing) are saying that there will be an end, no objective proof can back that statement, do you see the difference?
I think you did not understand me. We have only Models of the Universe.
And some models provide some obserable evidence of its validity - but these are not absolutes since new observation can destroy the model. No scientific truths are absolute. They are always provisional.Regards,
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Peace be upon you Saladin,
even back when Quran was not completed , "THIS" could refer to the kitab that was being compiled , being written down ,or being recited to the nabi by gabriel . even if it was a single page , it was a kitab .
If that was the case, then why do we see instance of AL kitaab. Certinaly one page compared to a group of pages is not the same thing. Only one of them can be THE Kitaab.
So if we are reading about kitaab and there is no completed book, then your understanding has a serious flaw.
just what Ahmed said
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The argument of refering to it as such while it was not finished yet has really no meritfor example if it took me 5 years to write a book, during all these years I can refer to it as a book, why not?
I doubt you would look at a your first page and say this is "THE book"(al kitaab). You would say "part of my book" , not THE book. How can you look at something unfinished in say "in it is guidance , sure without doubt". If I stop you right then and there, and wanted to get THE BOOK, could I do it?
idolfree1 wrote
... But at the very same time, we ALL have the universe all around us , but most are sleep, the AWE of creation has dulled to us. Al Kitaab is Universal LAW, that we must all read and study. Surely the God has not created all this in vain.the Quran is now complete . it has reached its full size . on the other hand , the universe is expanding as we speak . it has not reached its full size yet . it is not complete . so according to your arguement , "THIS" cannot refer to the universe .
The laws of the universe are complete. Wether the very first man, or anyone today, if you jump from a building, the LAW will pull you to the cement below.
no offense , but this one , alongwith your previous("Gods never runs out of words") arguements carry no weight .
No offense taken, we are reasoning, thats all. Lets continue.
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Peace be upon you Lote Tree,
IF1
Yes, and as many times as you add 2+2 and get 4, the same amount of times you will look out into space and never find an end...erm but we can say 2+2=4 always...
We can look and see no end to the universe always.
I can come and say that one day 2+2 will not equal 4
Or you can say that one day there will be an end to the universe.
Or someone can say that someday a stick will turn into a snake
we don't have to continually look up to space and continually revise our model of the Universe do we?
But we are continually revising our model of the Universe. The more knowlege we accumulate the better model we will built.This discussion is about the "end" of the universe. There is no revision that has "ends" on the universe, no one can objectively prove that. The observable evidence lies in favor of no end.
You said Universe has no end - that is not verification chap - however you write it. The truth is you and I don't know only you claim that Universe has no end. And not knowig is not verification best answer is and the humble answer is I don't know if the Universe has no ends or begining.
From the human perspective, we cannot grasp the WHOLE (God), but we know that in order for there to be LIMITS on a thing, it must be DEFINED, seperated from another thing, and SCIENCE PROVES that all things really from the same "substance" (for lack of a better word). The God is ONE, there is no divisions in the WHOLE. We are manifestations of the WHOLE(God), and the God has no beginning nor end.
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Just like sticks turning to snakes. You can throw sticks all day, they will never turn into snakes in the physical world.That is irrelevant to your statement that Universe has no end. Simply you don't know that. You only claim that you do.
Close your eyes and see the universe, where does it end? And its the same outside of you. You will never find the ends to either of them.
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But some might expect that one day we will find an end to the universe, i guess the vision is some kind of eggshell, but what would be on the other side of the "MATTER" (what else can DEFINE/LIMIT but matter?).We only have models of the Universe. We know nothing for sure and our model only lasts until observational evidence says its false.
I know FOR SURE, that if you subject water to -32 degrees, it will change to ice. Should I operate from your perspective and have a sceintific experiment each day before I fill up my ice trays? The universe is built on verifyable law, that is the solid foundation that we build upon. Not a shaky sandy cliff of guessing, not being sure of what we can verify today, always thiking one day it might change, maybe one day a savior will come or the universe will end, or sticks will turn to snakes, WAIT WAIT WAIT WAIt WAIT.....too late! Do you see where that type of thinking leads?
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Incorrect, there had to have been some bodiless intelligence that WILLED the ENERGY/MATTER to expand and solidify into forms, ALL based on a strict mathematical pattern (see periodic table of elements for the pattern) which gives evidence of intelligence.There is not OBJECTIVE PROOF of this, even mathematics breaks down at the moment of the Big Bang. So mathematics is not sacred.
The periodic table is OBJECTIVE PROOF of the EFFECT of the intelligence acting upon the energy/matter. We are going from the subjective realm to the objective. We use the objective side to find the truth of the subjective. Like studying the movement of objects to verify "wind" or "gravity". Yes, we cannot use mathematics once we get to the subjective realm of NO THINGS, energy at rest, PEACE.
Thats not objective science, that is someones opinion.
Universe having a begining is based on scientific model. So this model can be tested against observation. Thats how science works. And so far cosmic background radiation is the only observable evidence of the Universe having a begining. This is not opinion of some individual but based on scientific principles.
Please elaborate on the scientific principles. As far as I know, something without an end cannot be proven to have a beginning. Please elaborate on the science.
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As I explained above, the mathematics gives evidence of an intellegence before the so called Big Bang.No. Mathematics breaks down at the point of Big Bang!
Mathematics is the EFFECT of the What? Answer that question for me.
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All that can be induced is that there is a constand ebb and flow, out and in- just like our breath(inSPIRation, exPIRe), based on a bodiless intelligence that is WILLING upon Energy/Matter according to a strict LAW (mathematics).That can be a matter of opinion since mathematics breaks down at the point of the Big Bang?
You see this ebb and flow all the time, and science has proven that energy cannot be destroyed. SO what happend to it?
Doint we see life and death constantly? What other observation could lead your thinking that it would all end at the beginning?
Who said ending? - Universe could be cyclic?
You said ending, we were debating if the universe has an end.
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We work in the realm of laws. I am saying Energy has been proven to not be destroyed, this is objectively proven.Yes, that is so. So how does that prove Bodiless Intelligence? Where is the objective proof of this?
The same objective proof that we use to verify gravity, the effects. Mathematics (order) is the effect of intelligence. Notice the disorder of the unintelligent in the world.
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You (or scientists you are referencing) are saying that there will be an end, no objective proof can back that statement, do you see the difference?I think you did not understand me. We have only Models of the Universe.
And some models provide some obserable evidence of its validity - but these are not absolutes since new observation can destroy the model. No scientific truths are absolute. They are always provisional.Ok, when water on earth no longer turns to ice under 32 degrees, then we can talk about not absolute. You are creating a watery/unstable foundation which will never allow you to build a proper understanding. If Law is shaky, then we can never grow.
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salam.
Peace be upon you Saladin,
even back when Quran was not completed , "THIS" could refer to the kitab that was being compiled , being written down ,or being recited to the nabi by gabriel . even if it was a single page , it was a kitab .
If that was the case, then why do we see instance of AL kitaab. Certinaly one page compared to a group of pages is not the same thing. Only one of them can be THE Kitaab.
So if we are reading about kitaab and there is no completed book, then your understanding has a serious flaw.
it was THE KITAB that was revealed IN PARTS, not all at once . it was still THE KITAB .
regarding single page , i had the Quran,THE KITAB, written on a single page (in small writing) hanging in our dining room . THE KITAB does not have to be multiple paged WRITTEN on a single page .
just what Ahmed said
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The argument of refering to it as such while it was not finished yet has really no meritfor example if it took me 5 years to write a book, during all these years I can refer to it as a book, why not?
I doubt you would look at a your first page and say this is "THE book"(al kitaab). You would say "part of my book" , not THE book. How can you look at something unfinished in say "in it is guidance , sure without doubt". If I stop you right then and there, and wanted to get THE BOOK, could I do it?
how would "part of my book" sound after the book will be complete . the complete book refering to itself as "part of the book" ?!
idolfree1 wrote
... But at the very same time, we ALL have the universe all around us , but most are sleep, the AWE of creation has dulled to us. Al Kitaab is Universal LAW, that we must all read and study. Surely the God has not created all this in vain.the Quran is now complete . it has reached its full size . on the other hand , the universe is expanding as we speak . it has not reached its full size yet . it is not complete . so according to your arguement , "THIS" cannot refer to the universe .
The laws of the universe are complete. Wether the very first man, or anyone today, if you jump from a building, the LAW will pull you to the cement below.
the laws of the Quran were also complete . it is just the Quran was expanding as they were revealed to us in parts . just like the law of gravity will be "revealed" when one hits the cement below (although the law was already there) .
by the way the laws of the universe do not tell us how to lead our lives.
Quran does . -
Peace be upon you,
Let me try this again, because I know you are aware I was not refering to the whole 114 chpaters on one page, so we will try again.
If I have not the 114 chapters, but I have the verse, in it guidance sure without doubt, how can I have the complete guidance from an uncomplete book?
by the way the laws of the universe do not tell us how to lead our lives.
Sure they do, thats what Ibrahim deduced from looking at the stars moon and sun. If yo know that jumping off a building will activate the law of gravity pulling you to yor death, will you be guided by that? Or will you jump anyway?
If you see people smoking and dying of cancer, will you smoke?
If you see people not at peace, getting emotional, and dying from stress, will you stay peaceful?
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salam.
Peace be upon you,
Let me try this again, because I know you are aware I was not refering to the whole 114 chpaters on one page, so we will try again.
If I have not the 114 chapters, but I have the verse, in it guidance sure without doubt, how can I have the complete guidance from an uncomplete book?
i think u cant . God knows what we need , when we need . and HE revealed the Quran accordingly .
(but now the Quran is complete and guidance is available)
by the way the laws of the universe do not tell us how to lead our lives.
Sure they do, thats what Ibrahim deduced from looking at the stars moon and sun.
who informed you about abraham ? Quran or the universe ?
If yo know that jumping off a building will activate the law of gravity pulling you to yor death, will you be guided by that? Or will you jump anyway?
If you see people smoking and dying of cancer, will you smoke?
If you see people not at peace, getting emotional, and dying from stress, will you stay peaceful?
does the universe tell us the punishment of adultery(for example) ? do stars,moon and sun tell us? does the Quran tell us ?
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Peace all
I completely agree with Idolfree1. And that article by bro Ayman was great. eye opening indeed.
From what I understand is that,- God has created the universe.
- God has given us a brain.
- God has given us the internet.
- God tells us to use our brain to study the universe.
- the "Quran" was NOT a book when it was revealed.
- That means it is mindless to say that the Quran is the Book. Because the Quran is definately not a book.
- What defines the term "book" anyway. What if I wrote Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince on one large piece of paper. Wouldn't that make it a "page?"
- Allah's guidance is not limited to 114 chapters. That explains why one can be a believer without even knowing what the "Quran" is about.
- Pakistan Killed England in the test series.
- The Quran means "reading"
- The universe is the "kitaab" (this goes along with the unthinkable idea of a symbolic "Quran"
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SaLam Phoenix
- The universe is the "kitaab" (this goes along with the unthinkable idea of a symbolic "Quran"
Thats the problem with taking things to be symbolic. It can mean anything. Usually something which suits the understanding of the user.
- Pakistan Killed England in the test series.
Loooooollllllll. I miseed that in Ayman's article but did hear on SkyNews loooll
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Peace Jaxal
But the thing is, the "kitaab" isnt 1 particular book. So it has to be any book. Which means the reading of the kitaab, the "Quran," can be the reading of anything. So although they are symbols, we can find out what they represent with logic.
Like when Allah "talks" in the Quran. Or when He "sends down" something. He doesnt actually talk or send down. So those would be symbols. But we know what they mean.
the more we know about this world, the more we'll be able to understand the symbols in the Quran. And whether some things were symbols or not doesnt matter because that isnt important.And Pakistan lost the first ODI. cry
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Peace be upon you Pheonix,
And that article by bro Ayman was great. eye opening indeed.
Fantastic isnt it?
Makes the issue very clear.
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- God has given us the internet.
Peace
why the internet only?, what about the mobele phones, cars, TVs, CD players, Radio waves
and what about the generations prior to the seventies?, they missed out?
- the "Quran" was NOT a book when it was revealed.
no evidence provide but hearsay and conjesture, the Quran is a book and it says this about itself as I will show you later in another comment, and that is our proof
so the people who say the Quran is a book, has provided clear proofs from the Quran that it is a book
the ones who says it is not a book, provided nothing but hearsay and conjesture
- That means it is mindless to say that the Quran is the Book. Because the Quran is definately not a book.
haha that is really funny, thanks bro for the laugh, well it is crazy to say the Quran is not a book, because it says it is a book and it looks like a book for a 5 years old child if you ask him
you see if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it must be a duck
now you said this "Because the Quran is definitely not a book."
this is funny bro, true mate without any offence, what you concluded is like this the Quran is not a book, because definately it is not a book, well how can i work this out please?, can you elaborate by providing some compelling evidences?
- What defines the term "book" anyway.
well a book is a book, this is what a child will learn the first thing when they enter school, and possibly when they enter pre school
so any thing that is documented is a book and that is what it means in arabic
What if I wrote Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince on one large piece of paper. Wouldn't that make it a "page?"
In arabic we will see it as a book because it is a piece of paper with documneted information on it, "Maktooba", "Ka Ta Ba", "To Write"
- Allah's guidance is not limited to 114 chapters. That explains why one can be a believer without even knowing what the "Quran" is about.
wrong, the guidance is complete in the 114 suras in a book called the Quran, and that guidance is what we need only to pass the test and yet most people don't even follow 10% of it, then how come you want more guidance?, just follow what is sent befaore you ask for more guidance
- The Quran means "reading"
Wrong again, the Qira'a means Reading and the Quran word is NEVER EVER used in the arabic language to express the meaning of reading
Quran is a name to a book that incline it should be read and that is A LOGICAL INCLINATION OF UNDERSTANDING NOT A TRUE MEANING, THE WORD QURAN HAS NO MEANING BUT A NAME OF A SCRIPTURE
peace
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phoenix1 wrote
11. The Quran means "reading"AhmedBaghat wrote
Wrong again, the Qira'a means Reading and the Quran word is NEVER EVER used in the arabic language to express the meaning of readingQuran is a name to a book that incline it should be read and that is A LOGICAL INCLINATION OF UNDERSTANDING NOT A TRUE MEANING, THE WORD QURAN HAS NO MEANING BUT A NAME OF A SCRIPTURE
salam . is everyone in agreement ?
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- What defines the term "book" anyway.
well a book is a book, this is what a child will learn the first thing when they enter school, and possibly when they enter pre school
so any thing that is documented is a book and that is what it means in arabic
What if I wrote Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince on one large piece of paper. Wouldn't that make it a "page?"
In arabic we will see it as a book because it is a piece of paper with documneted information on it, "Maktooba", "Ka Ta Ba", "To Write"
salam Ahmed .
al Kitab means "the written" or "that which is written down" , right ? so whether it is written on a piece or two of paper or 500 page book , it is a kitab ,right ? i have weak arabic . correct me if i m wrong, please. -
Salaamun alaikum Kyle,
I have a respect for your insights but I think you've gone to an extreme here. There's no way al-quraan validates your view because al-quraan is not al-kitaab. Al-quraan is tafseel or detailling of al-kitaab (10/37). Therefore logically, it cannot be al-kitaab. Al-quraan is called 'hadha' (also 10/37) but al-kitaab is called 'dhalika'. One is 'this' and the other is 'that'. and so not the same at all. Al-quraan is al-haqq but al-kitaab is BIL-haqq, So man, im very sorry but there's no validation for your theory here.
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salam Ahmed .
al Kitab means "the written" or "that which is written down" , right ? so whether it is written on a piece or two of paper or 500 page book , it is a kitab ,right ? i have weak arabic . correct me if i m wrong, please.Salam bro
Absolutely bro, and I'm writing an intense comment that will explain some of the arabic grammar basics that add some light to this point better
"Ka Ta Ba" = "to write" past tense
"Kitab" = "Maktoob" = "Something documented on paper" = "A book"
"Kitabah" = "Writing"
"Kotob" = "Books"
"Katib" = "A Writer"
"Yaktibo" = "To write" present tense
and that is all the arabic words as far as I believe which can be derived from "Ka Ta Ba", please feel free anyone to add any further arabic words derived from "Ka Ta ba" if there is any left
peace be with all