the reading(quran) is not the title of any book
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salam.
Peace be upon you Saladin,
even back when Quran was not completed , "THIS" could refer to the kitab that was being compiled , being written down ,or being recited to the nabi by gabriel . even if it was a single page , it was a kitab .
If that was the case, then why do we see instance of AL kitaab. Certinaly one page compared to a group of pages is not the same thing. Only one of them can be THE Kitaab.
So if we are reading about kitaab and there is no completed book, then your understanding has a serious flaw.
it was THE KITAB that was revealed IN PARTS, not all at once . it was still THE KITAB .
regarding single page , i had the Quran,THE KITAB, written on a single page (in small writing) hanging in our dining room . THE KITAB does not have to be multiple paged WRITTEN on a single page .
just what Ahmed said
Quote
The argument of refering to it as such while it was not finished yet has really no meritfor example if it took me 5 years to write a book, during all these years I can refer to it as a book, why not?
I doubt you would look at a your first page and say this is "THE book"(al kitaab). You would say "part of my book" , not THE book. How can you look at something unfinished in say "in it is guidance , sure without doubt". If I stop you right then and there, and wanted to get THE BOOK, could I do it?
how would "part of my book" sound after the book will be complete . the complete book refering to itself as "part of the book" ?!
idolfree1 wrote
... But at the very same time, we ALL have the universe all around us , but most are sleep, the AWE of creation has dulled to us. Al Kitaab is Universal LAW, that we must all read and study. Surely the God has not created all this in vain.the Quran is now complete . it has reached its full size . on the other hand , the universe is expanding as we speak . it has not reached its full size yet . it is not complete . so according to your arguement , "THIS" cannot refer to the universe .
The laws of the universe are complete. Wether the very first man, or anyone today, if you jump from a building, the LAW will pull you to the cement below.
the laws of the Quran were also complete . it is just the Quran was expanding as they were revealed to us in parts . just like the law of gravity will be "revealed" when one hits the cement below (although the law was already there) .
by the way the laws of the universe do not tell us how to lead our lives.
Quran does . -
Peace be upon you,
Let me try this again, because I know you are aware I was not refering to the whole 114 chpaters on one page, so we will try again.
If I have not the 114 chapters, but I have the verse, in it guidance sure without doubt, how can I have the complete guidance from an uncomplete book?
by the way the laws of the universe do not tell us how to lead our lives.
Sure they do, thats what Ibrahim deduced from looking at the stars moon and sun. If yo know that jumping off a building will activate the law of gravity pulling you to yor death, will you be guided by that? Or will you jump anyway?
If you see people smoking and dying of cancer, will you smoke?
If you see people not at peace, getting emotional, and dying from stress, will you stay peaceful?
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salam.
Peace be upon you,
Let me try this again, because I know you are aware I was not refering to the whole 114 chpaters on one page, so we will try again.
If I have not the 114 chapters, but I have the verse, in it guidance sure without doubt, how can I have the complete guidance from an uncomplete book?
i think u cant . God knows what we need , when we need . and HE revealed the Quran accordingly .
(but now the Quran is complete and guidance is available)
by the way the laws of the universe do not tell us how to lead our lives.
Sure they do, thats what Ibrahim deduced from looking at the stars moon and sun.
who informed you about abraham ? Quran or the universe ?
If yo know that jumping off a building will activate the law of gravity pulling you to yor death, will you be guided by that? Or will you jump anyway?
If you see people smoking and dying of cancer, will you smoke?
If you see people not at peace, getting emotional, and dying from stress, will you stay peaceful?
does the universe tell us the punishment of adultery(for example) ? do stars,moon and sun tell us? does the Quran tell us ?
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Peace all
I completely agree with Idolfree1. And that article by bro Ayman was great. eye opening indeed.
From what I understand is that,- God has created the universe.
- God has given us a brain.
- God has given us the internet.
- God tells us to use our brain to study the universe.
- the "Quran" was NOT a book when it was revealed.
- That means it is mindless to say that the Quran is the Book. Because the Quran is definately not a book.
- What defines the term "book" anyway. What if I wrote Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince on one large piece of paper. Wouldn't that make it a "page?"
- Allah's guidance is not limited to 114 chapters. That explains why one can be a believer without even knowing what the "Quran" is about.
- Pakistan Killed England in the test series.
- The Quran means "reading"
- The universe is the "kitaab" (this goes along with the unthinkable idea of a symbolic "Quran"
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SaLam Phoenix
- The universe is the "kitaab" (this goes along with the unthinkable idea of a symbolic "Quran"
Thats the problem with taking things to be symbolic. It can mean anything. Usually something which suits the understanding of the user.
- Pakistan Killed England in the test series.
Loooooollllllll. I miseed that in Ayman's article but did hear on SkyNews loooll
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Peace Jaxal
But the thing is, the "kitaab" isnt 1 particular book. So it has to be any book. Which means the reading of the kitaab, the "Quran," can be the reading of anything. So although they are symbols, we can find out what they represent with logic.
Like when Allah "talks" in the Quran. Or when He "sends down" something. He doesnt actually talk or send down. So those would be symbols. But we know what they mean.
the more we know about this world, the more we'll be able to understand the symbols in the Quran. And whether some things were symbols or not doesnt matter because that isnt important.And Pakistan lost the first ODI. cry
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Peace be upon you Pheonix,
And that article by bro Ayman was great. eye opening indeed.
Fantastic isnt it?
Makes the issue very clear.
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- God has given us the internet.
Peace
why the internet only?, what about the mobele phones, cars, TVs, CD players, Radio waves
and what about the generations prior to the seventies?, they missed out?
- the "Quran" was NOT a book when it was revealed.
no evidence provide but hearsay and conjesture, the Quran is a book and it says this about itself as I will show you later in another comment, and that is our proof
so the people who say the Quran is a book, has provided clear proofs from the Quran that it is a book
the ones who says it is not a book, provided nothing but hearsay and conjesture
- That means it is mindless to say that the Quran is the Book. Because the Quran is definately not a book.
haha that is really funny, thanks bro for the laugh, well it is crazy to say the Quran is not a book, because it says it is a book and it looks like a book for a 5 years old child if you ask him
you see if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it must be a duck
now you said this "Because the Quran is definitely not a book."
this is funny bro, true mate without any offence, what you concluded is like this the Quran is not a book, because definately it is not a book, well how can i work this out please?, can you elaborate by providing some compelling evidences?
- What defines the term "book" anyway.
well a book is a book, this is what a child will learn the first thing when they enter school, and possibly when they enter pre school
so any thing that is documented is a book and that is what it means in arabic
What if I wrote Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince on one large piece of paper. Wouldn't that make it a "page?"
In arabic we will see it as a book because it is a piece of paper with documneted information on it, "Maktooba", "Ka Ta Ba", "To Write"
- Allah's guidance is not limited to 114 chapters. That explains why one can be a believer without even knowing what the "Quran" is about.
wrong, the guidance is complete in the 114 suras in a book called the Quran, and that guidance is what we need only to pass the test and yet most people don't even follow 10% of it, then how come you want more guidance?, just follow what is sent befaore you ask for more guidance
- The Quran means "reading"
Wrong again, the Qira'a means Reading and the Quran word is NEVER EVER used in the arabic language to express the meaning of reading
Quran is a name to a book that incline it should be read and that is A LOGICAL INCLINATION OF UNDERSTANDING NOT A TRUE MEANING, THE WORD QURAN HAS NO MEANING BUT A NAME OF A SCRIPTURE
peace
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phoenix1 wrote
11. The Quran means "reading"AhmedBaghat wrote
Wrong again, the Qira'a means Reading and the Quran word is NEVER EVER used in the arabic language to express the meaning of readingQuran is a name to a book that incline it should be read and that is A LOGICAL INCLINATION OF UNDERSTANDING NOT A TRUE MEANING, THE WORD QURAN HAS NO MEANING BUT A NAME OF A SCRIPTURE
salam . is everyone in agreement ?
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- What defines the term "book" anyway.
well a book is a book, this is what a child will learn the first thing when they enter school, and possibly when they enter pre school
so any thing that is documented is a book and that is what it means in arabic
What if I wrote Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince on one large piece of paper. Wouldn't that make it a "page?"
In arabic we will see it as a book because it is a piece of paper with documneted information on it, "Maktooba", "Ka Ta Ba", "To Write"
salam Ahmed .
al Kitab means "the written" or "that which is written down" , right ? so whether it is written on a piece or two of paper or 500 page book , it is a kitab ,right ? i have weak arabic . correct me if i m wrong, please. -
Salaamun alaikum Kyle,
I have a respect for your insights but I think you've gone to an extreme here. There's no way al-quraan validates your view because al-quraan is not al-kitaab. Al-quraan is tafseel or detailling of al-kitaab (10/37). Therefore logically, it cannot be al-kitaab. Al-quraan is called 'hadha' (also 10/37) but al-kitaab is called 'dhalika'. One is 'this' and the other is 'that'. and so not the same at all. Al-quraan is al-haqq but al-kitaab is BIL-haqq, So man, im very sorry but there's no validation for your theory here.
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salam Ahmed .
al Kitab means "the written" or "that which is written down" , right ? so whether it is written on a piece or two of paper or 500 page book , it is a kitab ,right ? i have weak arabic . correct me if i m wrong, please.Salam bro
Absolutely bro, and I'm writing an intense comment that will explain some of the arabic grammar basics that add some light to this point better
"Ka Ta Ba" = "to write" past tense
"Kitab" = "Maktoob" = "Something documented on paper" = "A book"
"Kitabah" = "Writing"
"Kotob" = "Books"
"Katib" = "A Writer"
"Yaktibo" = "To write" present tense
and that is all the arabic words as far as I believe which can be derived from "Ka Ta Ba", please feel free anyone to add any further arabic words derived from "Ka Ta ba" if there is any left
peace be with all
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Salaamun alaikum Ahmed,
Kutub can't only mean 'books', mate. Check out 'fihaa kutubun qayyimah' (98/3).
Salam Alikom brother
welcome back, you have been missed indeed
I agree bro, Kutubun also meaans many things that is documented, i do believe verse 983 means by "Fihaa Kutubun qayyimah" means what is written in the Quran is of a very high values, the plurer was used as an indictaion to the many things of a high value that are documented in the Quran
Peace be with you man,
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just what Ahmed said
The argument of refering to it as such while it was not finished yet has really no merit
for example if it took me 5 years to write a book, during all these years I can refer to it as a book, why not?
I doubt you would look at a your first page and say this is "THE book"(al kitaab). You would say "part of my book" , not THE book. How can you look at something unfinished in say "in it is guidance , sure without doubt". If I stop you right then and there, and wanted to get THE BOOK, could I do it?
how would "part of my book" sound after the book will be complete . the complete book refering to itself as "part of the book" ?!
salam.
by the way the laws of the universe do not tell us how to lead our lives.
Sure they do, thats what Ibrahim deduced from looking at the stars moon and sun.
who informed you about abraham ? Quran or the universe ?
If yo know that jumping off a building will activate the law of gravity pulling you to yor death, will you be guided by that? Or will you jump anyway?
If you see people smoking and dying of cancer, will you smoke?
If you see people not at peace, getting emotional, and dying from stress, will you stay peaceful?
does the universe tell us the punishment of adultery(for example) ? do stars,moon and sun tell us? does the Quran tell us ?
salam idolfree .
and did u check out this article
Koran and Self Reference
http//rationalreality.50webs.com/godel.htmi m waiting for a response roll
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Peace be upon yu Saladin,
I have read the article, but I was very disinterested. What were you presenting this article to prove?
