What is the right translation of [2:144] ???

wildguest1956

Salam JM,

Note that qibla can mean "direction", as well as "house". See . Governor of the qibla would mean guardian of the kaabah.

JK- No, "Qiblah" does not mean "house". "buyoot" has been translated as "houses" in that verse. "Qiblah" was translated as "synagogue" by RK in that verse. "Qiblah" is a "salat praying direction". GOD Bless!

Yes, you are right.
The word qiblah in has been translated by

place of worship (Yusuf Ali, Shakir, Hilali/Kahn, M Ali, M Asad)
oratory (Pickthal)
direction to pray to (Arberry)
facing one another (Sarwar)
synagogue (Khalifa)
focal point (free-minds)
Centers of devotion to the Divine Ideology (Shabbir Ahmed)
cf http//islamawakened.org/Quran/10/

According yo Shabbir Ahmed, Qiblah = Center of devotion = Symbol of uniform Ideology = Center for the unity of mankind, and Qiblah = masjidalharam => Qiblah = Masjid of Security = Source of peace and security for all humanity = The Symbol of a uniform Ideology = The Symbol of pure Monotheism = The Ultimate source of the unity of mankind.
http//www.beacon2005.com/QXP.pdf

Can someone tell wether the translation of qiblah by facing one another in by Sarwar is correct ?

Peace

wildguest1956

Salaams,

try this

http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2408&highlight=qiblah

God Bless.

Thanks ! very interesting indeed...

But the following seems a bit strange to me

After appointment of the Qiblah (MILLAH IBRAHIM) prophet directed his face to the heaven and Allah turned the prophet to another Qiblah, the Masjid Al Haram which was pleasing / satisfactory to him.

Verily those who disbelieve and keep away from the way of Allah, and the MASJID AL HARAM, which we have APPOINTED FOR THE MANKIND (and) equal are the dedicated in it and the perished and whosoever seeks in it infidelity with oppression We shall taste him of our painful punishment 2225

The Masjid Al Haram is the Qiblah of the Muslims but is appointed for the entire MANKIND?

THE FIRST QIBLAH WAS POLYTHEISM (of pagans) THE SECOND QIBLAH WAS (MONOTHEISM) THE SECT OF ABRAHAM (of the believers) AND THE THIRD QIBLAH WAS MASJID AL HARAM (of all mankind)

IMHO, there has been only one QIBLAH for muslims the MILLAT of ABRAHAM, which is symbolized by MASJID AL HARAM. confirms this.

But alanuwalliyannaka qiblatan tardaha in makes this understanding difficult if translated as usual "We shall turn thee to a Qiblah which shall please thee"...
But not if translated as "We shall appoint you the governor of the Qiblah and this shall please you"..

That's why I have opened this thread...

Peace

wildguest1956

peace JM,

See under Waw-Lam-Ya in PRL.

Wakas

I have had a look at PRL, but I am still too weak in arabic to properly understand Lane's lexicon, that's why this has not answered my question.

Kamal Omar claims that the correct translation of fa-la-nuwulliyannaka in is " We shall appoint you the governor".

Here is his commentary

Verse 2/142 commits that the fools among mankind would raise their fingers against those who revert to Islam, drop their previous non-Islamic practices and adopt the site of Kaba (at Makka) as their Qiblah. This specially applies to those who come out of the sects of Judaism and Christianity etc. and accept Islam as their Religion.
Verse 2/143 clearly states that the Messenger had always patronised the original, permanent and eternal Qiblah and his practices served as a test of belief for those who presented themselves as Muslims. Please note the correct (according to context) translation of the Arabic word Kunta.
Verse 2/144 gives reassurance to the Prophet that Allah would give full administrative control of the Qiblah (i.e. Kaba, Al-Masjid-al-Haram, City of Makka and the Harem) in the hands of the Prophet. Please note the correct (according to Arabic grammar as well as context) translation of the compound Arabic word fa-la-nuwulliyannaka.
The word Shatr, whenever used in relation to a building, refers to the most important part of that structure. The appropriate translation of this word in relation to Al-Masjid-al-Haram at Makka is nucleus. Thus the word shatr directly points to the Kaba which lies in the centre of the Mosque as its nucleus.
The Arabic word ila (towards) is omitted in 2/144 as understood. This is one of the characteristics of the Divine Book and this practice is available within the Text at many places. The word ila stands omitted prior to the word makanan in 19/16, 22. The word ala stands omitted prior to the word abdahu in 19/2.
Verse 2/145 clearly points out that Qiblataka and Qiblatahum are two different and opposite concepts. It says that the Prophet could never accept or adopt the Qiblah of a deviated group; and the deviated groups could never patronise the Qiblah in practice of the Prophet. This verse and the verses beyond tell us that the deviated groups recognise the legitimacy of the Kaba as their original Qiblah to an extent as they recognise their sons; yet they reject it. The statements inform us that the Jews and the Christians are not unanimous regarding the site or direction which they adopt as their Qiblah.
As a matter of fact the Jews and the Christians have left the track of Divine Guidance. A major portion of the Jews face the site of mount-platform (in old Jerusalem) as Qiblah; while the majority of Christians face the direction East as their Qiblah. Even in these concepts all Jews and all Christians are not unanimous. Note the last six words in verse 2/142 which clarify that God-given code of life is Sirat-ul-Mustaqimu, i.e., a permanent and eternal way (of life). As the path is permanent and NOT subject to change its contents and components (especially the Qiblah) have never been subjected to any change, alteration or shift.
as their Qiblah. Even in these concepts all Jews and all Christians are not unanimous. Note the last six words in verse 2/142 which clarify that God-given code of life is Sirat-ul-Mustaqimu, i.e., a permanent and eternal way (of life). As the path is permanent and NOT subject to change its contents and components (especially the Qiblah) have never been subjected to any change, alteration or shift.

http//www.thedivinebook.org/Quran/Tafseer.asp?tfn=2_142

So, I would like someone strong in Arabic to confirm or infirm this.

Is walliy in falanuwalliyannaka from the verb walla = "to turn", or from the noun waliy = "governor" ?

Can someone help ?

Thanks

PS I would like to congratulate you for all you works in the StudyQuran project. May God reward you for this endeavour.

unknownuser

Peace

The Arabic verse meaning is clear, at least to me, let's break it up and see what every bit means

(144)

" ", simply means that Allah telling Mohammad "Indeed We see the turning of your face to heaven, so We shall surely turn you to a qiblah which you shall like;"

The Qiblah simply means a direction in front of your face, not behind you, a version of the word was used in the story of prophet Yusuf, when the wife of Al-Aziz tried to seduce Yusuf then ripped his shirt apart, when Al-Aziz discovberd the matter and asked for advice, a wise man suggested the following

If the shirt was ripped from the "Qubul" ie. "The front", then he is guilty

If the shirt was ripped from "Dubur" i.e. "The back" then she is guilty

26- "He said 'It was she that sought to seduce me - from my (true) self.' And one of her household saw (this) and bore witness, (thus)- 'If it be that his shirt is torn from the front, then is her tale true, and he is a liar!'"

27- "But if it be that his shirt is torn from the back, then is she the liar, and he is telling the truth!"

(26)

(27)

-> ie. Qiblah means 100% a direction in front of your face

-> Before Islam the Arabs used to pray facing the Aqsa Mosque, the prophet however was not pleased to perform Salat while facing the direction of Aqsa Mosque, hence he was turning his face to the heaven "like pleading to Allah to change the direction of Salat, ie. the Qiblah in front of the people performing salat", Allah responded to Mohammad in the Quran as follow "Indeed We see the turning of your face to heaven, so We shall surely turn you to a qiblah which you shall like;"

-> Allah continued by telling His prophet about the new direction that Muslims should face when they perform Salat " ", very clear order to the prophet to "turn then your face towards the Sacred Mosque", and as far as the history goes, that sacred mosque should be the Kaaba, some suggest it is not, however unless compelling evidences is provided I have to take it as the Kaaba, I'm still looking at some info but it is too much to read and may take some time and I don't want to overwhelm myself. The fact is, I face a direction to perform Salat to Allah, again I don't really need to overwhelm myself trying to work out the direction to pray to Allah while I know He is every where.

For me, the Qiblah is nothing but a way to organise the group prayer, it will look really funny that a group of Muslims are performing Salat and each one of them is facing a different direction, try to visualise it, it will look really funny lol , that is on a bigger scale, on the individuals scale and knowing that Islam is nothing but unity between humanity under the One and Only God, then it is logical that all the individual also face the same direction because they are praying to the same God, that direction was chosen by God in the Quran and the common knowledge suggest it is the Kaaba unless proven otherwise.

-> Then the same order given to the prophet was given to all believers " " ie. "and wherever you are, turn your face towards it", please note "You" and "Your Face" in here mean all the believers, not Mohammad alone.

-> The last part of 2144 is where the confusion may arise ? ?, translated as follow by SHAKIR "'and those who have been given the Book most surely know that it is the truth from their Lord; and Allah is not at all heedless of what they do.". Whenever the Quran mentions ?Ahl Al Kitab? or ?Those who receive the Kitab? most think it is talking about the Jews and the Christians forgetting that the Muslims also received a book , while in many locations it may be the case of previous scriptures, in this verse I see it only as the Muslims, because the issue in hand is something that purely belong to the Islam faith and all the info regarding that faith is in a Kitab called the Quran, the order to change to the direction to face when we perform Salat was given in the Quran as we read earlier in the same verse, hence the believers ?those who have been given the Book?, which is ?The Quran? ? most surely know that it is the truth from their Lord?, the reason I guess by this bit of the verse is the known fact that the ?the enemy of Islam? at the time ?Mostly the Jews? were ?seeking discord? and started prompting propaganda against Islam when we changed the Qiblah according to the order in the Quran, so Allah is confirming that the true believers will not listen to this discord because the order was given in the Kitab ?The Quran?

We can also conclude that the hadith about looking to the ground while praying to help not to forget is nothiing but a lie because the order was to look at it in front of us while praying " ", "and wherever you are, turn your face towards it"

Allah knows best

Peace

wildguest1956

" ", simply means that Allah telling Mohammad "Indeed We see the turning of your face to heaven, so We shall surely turn you to a qiblah which you shall like;"

Thanks, but you have not directly anwsered to my question.
Il you think that alanuwalliyannaka qiblatan tardaha cannot be translated as "We shall appoint you the governor of the Qiblah and this shall please you", can you explain why ?

This is the only point I would like to check.

The Qiblah simply means a direction in front of your face, not behind you, a version of the word was used in the story of prophet Yusuf, when the wife of Al-Aziz tried to seduce Yusuf then ripped his shirt apart, when Al-Aziz discovberd the matter and asked for advice, a wise man suggested the following

Yes, but qubulin is not the same word as qiblatun, and the words derived from the root Qaf-Ba-lam have very various meanings.
See http//www.studyquran.co.uk/16_QAF.htm

Before Islam the Arabs used to pray facing the Aqsa Mosque, the prophet however was not pleased to perform Salat while facing the direction of Aqsa Mosque,

This is not in the quran, so it should be taken as conjecture.
Even in the ahadith, the word used is not masjid alaqsa, but bayt almaqdis.

Allah continued by telling His prophet about the new direction that Muslims should face when they perform Salat " ", very clear order to the prophet to "turn then your face towards the Sacred Mosque",

There is no proof that these verses are about salat. In my opinion, it is about everything we do in our life. The quran does not say "In your salat" ; it says "wherever you may be".
I am on the opinion of Kamal Omar when he says "God-given code of life is Sirat-ul-Mustaqimu, i.e., a permanent and eternal way (of life). As the path is permanent and NOT subject to change its contents and components (especially the Qiblah) have never been subjected to any change, alteration or shift. "
So I do not understand why the qibla would have to be changed.

Whenever the Quran mentions Ahl Al Kitab or Those who receive the Kitab most think it is talking about the Jews and the Christians forgetting that the Muslims also received a book , while in many locations it may be the case of previous scriptures, in this verse I see it only as the Muslims, because the issue in hand is something that purely belong to the Islam faith and all the info regarding that faith is in a Kitab called the Quran, the order to change to the direction to face when we perform Salat was given in the Quran as we read earlier in the same verse, hence the believers those who have been given the Book, which is The Quran most surely know that it is the truth from their Lord, the reason I guess by this bit of the verse is the known fact that the the enemy of Islam at the time Mostly the Jews were seeking discord and started prompting propaganda against Islam when we changed the Qiblah according to the order in the Quran, so Allah is confirming that the true believers will not listen to this discord because the order was given in the Kitab The Quran

I don't agree.
Every muslim, including those who have followed Abraham, those who have followed Moses, or those who have followed Isa, have to follow the millat of Abraham, and to turn his face (i.e. his whole being) toward masjid alharam.
I think masjid alharam is the symbol of pure monotheism. To take masjid alharam as quibla means to take pure monotheism as way of life.

Peace

unknownuser

" ", simply means that Allah telling Mohammad "Indeed We see the turning of your face to heaven, so We shall surely turn you to a qiblah which you shall like;"

Thanks, but you have not directly anwsered to my question.
Il you think that alanuwalliyannaka qiblatan tardaha cannot be translated as "We shall appoint you the governor of the Qiblah and this shall please you", can you explain why ?

Peace

well, I can't see "Shall appoint you as a governer of the Qiblah" anywhere in the arabic words, hence I reject that translation

The Qiblah simply means a direction in front of your face, not behind you, a version of the word was used in the story of prophet Yusuf, when the wife of Al-Aziz tried to seduce Yusuf then ripped his shirt apart, when Al-Aziz discovberd the matter and asked for advice, a wise man suggested the following

Yes, but qubulin is not the same word as qiblatun, and the words derived from the root Qaf-Ba-lam have very various meanings.
See http//www.studyquran.co.uk/16_QAF.htm

I believe in both locations it means front, "Qiblah" means direction in front of you, "Qubul" means "front", they sound the same to me with a mere difference which adding the word direction to te meaning of Qiblah

well, for the shirt incident, it can also be understood that the shirt was ripped from the front direction or the back direction

in arabic, it sounds almost the same to me, sorry that is my native tounge, it is also almost the same letters, only the Tashkil is different and a Taa Marbotta in the Qiblah

Before Islam the Arabs used to pray facing the Aqsa Mosque, the prophet however was not pleased to perform Salat while facing the direction of Aqsa Mosque,

This is not in the quran, so it should be taken as conjecture.

I'm sorry, The quran qualifies the hadith, the hadith is just a mere history record that can be verified to a degree, otherwise anything you study at school regarding history is also a conjecture and you should not know it

Even in the ahadith, the word used is not masjid alaqsa, but bayt almaqdis.

well, yeh in arabic we can refer to the same object with many names, even we can do the same with humans, in fact Allah also has many names

Allah continued by telling His prophet about the new direction that Muslims should face when they perform Salat " ", very clear order to the prophet to "turn then your face towards the Sacred Mosque",

There is no proof that these verses are about salat. In my opinion, it is about everything we do in our life. The quran does not say "In your salat" ; it says "wherever you may be".

I don't understand your point here, so you are saying if I'm pissing in the toilet I should direct my face to a specific direction?, of course it has to mean when we pray or at least when we remember Allah, I will take it like that anyway but you are free to take as you wish

I am on the opinion of Kamal Omar when he says "God-given code of life is Sirat-ul-Mustaqimu, i.e., a permanent and eternal way (of life). As the path is permanent and NOT subject to change its contents and components (especially the Qiblah) have never been subjected to any change, alteration or shift. "

I disagree, Allah can do anything He wants whenever He wishes, but I would like to see supporting verses from the Quran to what Kamah said or it will be rendered conjectur wink

So I do not understand why the qibla would have to be changed.

why you want to understand it?, but if you insist on understanding without considering it as a mere order from Allah to test all humanity then you may also try to understand why Allah created you from the first place, I reckon you were forced to be created or do you think otherwise?

Whenever the Quran mentions ?Ahl Al Kitab? or ?Those who receive the Kitab? most think it is talking about the Jews and the Christians forgetting that the Muslims also received a book , while in many locations it may be the case of previous scriptures, in this verse I see it only as the Muslims, because the issue in hand is something that purely belong to the Islam faith and all the info regarding that faith is in a Kitab called the Quran, the order to change to the direction to face when we perform Salat was given in the Quran as we read earlier in the same verse, hence the believers ?those who have been given the Book?, which is ?The Quran? ? most surely know that it is the truth from their Lord?, the reason I guess by this bit of the verse is the known fact that the ?the enemy of Islam? at the time ?Mostly the Jews? were ?seeking discord? and started prompting propaganda against Islam when we changed the Qiblah according to the order in the Quran, so Allah is confirming that the true believers will not listen to this discord because the order was given in the Kitab ?The Quran?

I don't agree.
Every muslim, including those who have followed Abraham, those who have followed Moses, or those who have followed Isa, have to follow the millat of Abraham, and to turn his face (i.e. his whole being) toward masjid alharam.
I think masjid alharam is the symbol of pure monotheism. To take masjid alharam as quibla means to take pure monotheism as way of life.

Thanks, point taken

Peace

Cheers

unknownuser

Peace JM

if you have a look at 801

"He frowned and turned (his) back,"

-> I'm sure you know about that story of the blind man who came to ask the prophet a question while he was busy with some prominant leaders, the prophet showed facial expressions that he was upset to be interupted then turned his back to the blind

the above arabic verse is only two words and a waw "Abasa wa Tawala"

The word Tawala means looked the other way, ie. the back was in the direction of the object

now when Allah says to the prophet "Nowalianaka" means makes you point in a specific direction, that direction must be from the front because of the word "Qiblah", and which direction is it?, Allah answered that it is the masjid Al Haram, is the Masjid Al-Alharam = Al Kaaba or not?, i really have no idea yet

Cheers

wildguest1956

" ", simply means that Allah telling Mohammad "Indeed We see the turning of your face to heaven, so We shall surely turn you to a qiblah which you shall like;"

Thanks, but you have not directly anwsered to my question.
Il you think that alanuwalliyannaka qiblatan tardaha cannot be translated as "We shall appoint you the governor of the Qiblah and this shall please you", can you explain why ?

well, I can't see "Shall appoint you as a governer of the Qiblah" anywhere in the arabic words, hence I reject that translation

Could you have a look at the first post of this thread ?

The Qiblah simply means a direction in front of your face, not behind you, a version of the word was used in the story of prophet Yusuf, when the wife of Al-Aziz tried to seduce Yusuf then ripped his shirt apart, when Al-Aziz discovberd the matter and asked for advice, a wise man suggested the following

Yes, but qubulin is not the same word as qiblatun, and the words derived from the root Qaf-Ba-lam have very various meanings.
See http//www.studyquran.co.uk/16_QAF.htm

I believe in both locations it means front, "Qiblah" means direction in front of you, "Qubul" means "front", they sound the same to me with a mere difference which adding the word direction to te meaning of Qiblah

well, for the shirt incident, it can also be understood that the shirt was ripped from the front direction or the back direction

in arabic, it sounds almost the same to me, sorry that is my native tounge, it is also almost the same letters, only the Tashkil is different and a Taa Marbotta in the Qiblah

Have you read PRL, root Qaf-Ba-lam ?

Before Islam the Arabs used to pray facing the Aqsa Mosque, the prophet however was not pleased to perform Salat while facing the direction of Aqsa Mosque,

This is not in the quran, so it should be taken as conjecture.

I'm sorry, The quran qualifies the hadith, the hadith is just a mere history record that can be verified to a degree, otherwise anything you study at school regarding history is also a conjecture and you should not know it

You say " The quran qualifies the hadith". Could you quote the verse which prove that ?
I don't consider the ahadith to be a reliable way to know history.

Allah continued by telling His prophet about the new direction that Muslims should face when they perform Salat " ", very clear order to the prophet to "turn then your face towards the Sacred Mosque",

There is no proof that these verses are about salat. In my opinion, it is about everything we do in our life. The quran does not say "In your salat" ; it says "wherever you may be".

I don't understand your point here, so you are saying if I'm pissing in the toilet I should direct my face to a specific direction?, of course it has to mean when we pray or at least when we remember Allah, I will take it like that anyway but you are free to take as you wish

If you believe in hadith, the annwser shall be "yes" http//www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muwatta/014.mmt.html#014.14.2.3

Anyway, you should understand the word "face" (wahj) in the figurative sense, to designate the self.
Like in verse , and in many other ones..

Say "My Lord hath commanded justice; and that ye set your whole selves ( wujoohakum) (to Him) at every time and place of prayer, and call upon Him, making your devotion sincere as in His sight such as He created you in the beginning, so shall ye return."

I am on the opinion of Kamal Omar when he says "God-given code of life is Sirat-ul-Mustaqimu, i.e., a permanent and eternal way (of life). As the path is permanent and NOT subject to change its contents and components (especially the Qiblah) have never been subjected to any change, alteration or shift. "

I disagree, Allah can do anything He wants whenever He wishes, but I would like to see supporting verses from the Quran to what Kamah said or it will be rendered conjectur wink

Guide us (on to) As-Sirat-al-Mustaqima (The permanent and eternal Path)
Mustaqeem = Undeviating = Straight = Balanced = Even
The kaabah has always been the main center of devotion of the muslims (those who follow the creed of Abraham). It has never changed, and it has never been Jerusalem.

Say God bears truth. Follow the creed of Abraham, monotheism, and he was not of those who set up partners. The first sanctuary established for the people is the one in Bakka, blessed, and a guidance for the worlds. In it are clear signs the place of Abraham.

Peace

wildguest1956

now when Allah says to the prophet "Nowalianaka" means makes you point in a specific direction,

Sorry, but I don't understand Nowalianaka.
Is it alanuwalliyannaka ?

If yes...

Why would not waliy be the noun meaning "governor" ?
Instead of the verb walla ?
Does the verb walla mean only "to turn" ?
Or does it mean "to appoint as a governor" too ?
See http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume8/00000314.pdf

Thanks & peace

unknownuser

Could you have a look at the first post of this thread ?

Peace

Sure I did, I believe you want to understand the meaning of verse 2145 and I did break it up and explained every bit to the best of my knowledge, but I will try to do it again for you, however on the other hand you are leaning to follow another meaning for the verse, possibly basing it on a symbolism concept, I found the concept you are leaning to lack a lot of merit regarding clarity and ease of understanding, if this symbolism concept is true then this on its own merit should put the Quran in fault because the Quran says about itself that IT IS CLEAR AND EASY TO UNDERSTAND

Have you read PRL, root Qaf-Ba-lam ?

Sorry I haven't because I'm a native Arabic speaker and I hardly refer to this flawed method of understanding Arabic, no offence to anyone but I agree that is one of the ways of understanding the meaning of an individual word outside a context. For me, I hardly refer to the root, most native Arabic speakers will understand most of the Arabic words within a context without referring to the root, actually i hardly did this in my life even with other Arabic books that have content for average humans. And I believe the Quran is a book for an average human. I don?t need rocket science to understand the Quran.

You say " The quran qualifies the hadith". Could you quote the verse which prove that ?

Not really explicitly as such, but there are verses that clearly suggest the prophet mission was not only to deliver the Quran, but to "clear and explain issues inside", while I have to say that I can?t prove someone said whatever 1400 years ago or even 50 years ago or any time as long as I didn?t hear it myself, but what I can do is this, I can use the Quran to qualify the hadith using my brain, then I accept whatever from as a history record and further information using my heart, here is a verse for the Quran alone ?no hadith people? please explain to me how come Allah says this in the Quran

?And We have not revealed to you the Book except that you may make clear to them (explain) that about which they differ, and (as) a guidance and a mercy for a people who believe.?

(64)

-> Above we see Allah telling us that Mohammad had another mission in addition to ?Deliver the book?, and it is clearly seen in the Arabic verse ? ?, ie. ?Except to Explain to them?, the Ta in the word ? ?, pronounced as ?LeTobbain? is referring to the prophet and NOT THE QURAN, if it is referring to the Quran IT MUST BE A Ya like this ?? , pronounced ?LeYobbain?, an example is like this

?Allah desires to explain to you, and to guide you into the ways of those before you, and to turn to you (mercifully), and Allah is Knowing, Wise.?

(26)

Hence if Allah said to His prophet that He the Quran for him to explain what was sent in what they differ ?The Quran?, ? ?, then clearly the prophet had another mission in addition to delivery, and because the explanation was ASSOCIATED to the Quran only as seen from 1664, then we can use the Quran to qualify what know about the hadith

For example there is a hadith about the prophet been described as a man who was given the sexual power of 30 to 40 men or something like this, and clearly this has nothing to do with the Quran, God, and the path to Him, consequently it should be thrown in the rubbish bin.

You see how the Quran can qualify the hadith, very easy indeed.

I don't consider the ahadith to be a reliable way to know history.

Neither do I, but it seems "Talking" is the common way to know history, I use my mind to filter the crap out of the hadith and accept the rest as a mere history record that my heart feel comfortable to accept, like accepting that someone has discovered America for example

I don't understand your point here, so you are saying if I'm pissing in the toilet I should direct my face to a specific direction?, of course it has to mean when we pray or at least when we remember Allah, I will take it like that anyway but you are free to take as you wish

If you believe in hadith, the annwser shall be "yes" http//www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muwatta/014.mmt.html#014.14.2.3

I don?t believe in the hadith as such, rather a mere history record, now that hadith regarding facing whatever, or sitting down/standing up while facing something is a whole load of rubbish and don?t make any sense because the Quran never talked about how we should piss from the first place yet to need an explanation to it from the prophet, you see how the Quran can easily be used to qualify the haidth, but if the sunni sect use verse 2145 to suggest that ?whatever you do? you should face the kaaba again is non sense because simply the verse never said ?WHATEVER YOU DO?, the verse said ?WHEREVER YOU ARE?, now they took this as being in the toilet, possibly while being on bed and sure when they are dead but I?m not sure how they can achieve this while driving a car?, how about riding a camel?, man what a load of non sense.

The verse can easily be understood that it means WHEREVER YOU ARE on earth, ie. in a different town or a different country, this so easy for an average person to understand it this way , hence someone on a point on earth that is exactly opposite to the Kaaba can pray in two different directions that are 180 degrees apart,

Anyway, you should understand the word "face" (wahj) in the figurative sense, to designate the self.
Like in verse , and in many other ones..

I believe you mean ?Wajh?, but I stated that I accept it is figurative and mean the whole person but again from the front ?the face side? not from the back. Also the heart was used to refer to the self in a figurative manner, the point is "Qiblah" means a direction in front of us or in front of our face, ie. we are facing it. now we need a point to know where we face to fully define a Qiblah.

Guide us (on to) As-Sirat-al-Mustaqima (The permanent and eternal Path)
Mustaqeem = Undeviating = Straight = Balanced = Even

I agree that the Al-Sirat Al-Mustaqim means the straight path but where you got permanent from?

The kaabah has always been the main center of devotion of the muslims (those who follow the creed of Abraham). It has never changed, and it has never been Jerusalem.

That is ok for me to accept for sure, however the Arabic verse suggest that the Qiblah was changed to another location or at least there was no Qiblah at all and the prophet wanted the believers to pray facing the Kaabah, I also have no problem accepting that as well if compelling evidences provided. The point is, I pray facing the Kaaba, but as I said earlier I?m still reading a huge article regarding that verse I think it was by Layth

Say ?God bears truth. Follow the creed of Abraham, monotheism, and he was not of those who set up partners.? The first sanctuary established for the people is the one in Bakk?a, blessed, and a guidance for the worlds. In it are clear signs the place of Abraham.

Peace

Yes but the point is the verse never suggested that when it was established that we should point to it when we are far away from it, possibly the people were flawed and invented that habit of pointing to the Aqsa Mosque and Mohammad came with the help of Allah to demolish it, sure it is quite possible

Peace

unknownuser

now when Allah says to the prophet "Nowalianaka" means makes you point in a specific direction,

Sorry, but I don't understand Nowalianaka.
Is it alanuwalliyannaka ?

the word alone should be "walia" but because it was said by someone as an action to happen to that one by the person saying it then we need "Oo" at the front hence it should be "Oowalia", but Allah uses the plurer to refer to Himeslf so the "Oo" will be "No", ie, the word becomes "Nowalia"

and because it was a future event or a conequence to something, the "Le" in front is required so it becomes "Le Nowalia" , and because it was directed to someone "Mohammad" we need the "naka" at the end, hence the whole word is

Le Nowalia Naka = Lenowlianaka

If yes...

Why would not waliy be the noun meaning "governor" ?
Instead of the verb walla ?

simply because "Governor" means "Waali", can you see the double "a"?

how come a verb = a noun in the meaning? as well in all languages we have words that have double meaning and hence this is the main reason that root method is very flawed to be a standarised method to understand all Arabic vocabularies

but I agree that the verb also means to rule, another case of double meaning to the same word

also the verse said the same message to all the believers not just the prophet "Fa Waloo" would that mean all believers will some how be governers or ruling something? i don't know but its possibilty is very remote

Does the verb walla mean only "to turn" ?
Or does it mean "to appoint as a governor" too ?

It means to turn and it means to rule, the context is major factor to determine the meaning as long as it does not cause any contradiction with another area in the Quran, this is how the Quran explain itself

I still have to look at the link

Peace be with you

Wakas

peace,

I have had a look at PRL, but I am still too weak in arabic to properly understand Lane's lexicon, that's why this has not answered my question.

I was not really referring to Lane, PRL is much more than that. What I was referring to was the list of all the occurrences of the root you are questioning. It shows every single occurrence of the exact same form, I will cut&paste it for you

walla vb. (II) -

perf. act. 2142, 925, 957, 1746, 1818, 2710, 2780, 2831, 3052, 317, 4629, 4822

Thus, if you can find another occurrence of the same form that means "governor" it will strengthen the case for it being "governor". If you cannot, it will weaken the case for it being "governor" and this will mean that in 2142 it is the only occurrence of that form that means "governor", possible, but less likely.

Sorry I haven't because I'm a native Arabic speaker and I hardly refer to this flawed method of understanding Arabic

Considering the root meanings is not a flawed method of understanding the root or a word. It is only flawed if thats the only method you use. It is simply one avenue of approach.

Wakas

unknownuser

Considering the root meanings is not a flawed method of understanding the root or a word. It is only flawed if thats the only method you use. It is simply one avenue of approach.

Wakas

well, I accept your better put explanation

peace

wildguest1956

peace,

I have had a look at PRL, but I am still too weak in arabic to properly understand Lane's lexicon, that's why this has not answered my question.

I was not really referring to Lane, PRL is much more than that. What I was referring to was the list of all the occurrences of the root you are questioning. It shows every single occurrence of the exact same form, I will cut&paste it for you

walla vb. (II) -

perf. act. 2142, 925, 957, 1746, 1818, 2710, 2780, 2831, 3052, 317, 4629, 4822

Here is what I find about walla in

walla vb. (II) -
impf. act. 2115, 2144, 2177, 311, 4115, 6129, 815, 816, 2157, 3315, 4033, 5445, 5912
impv. 2144, 2144, 2149, 2150, 2150

What is " impf. act." ? Imperfect active ?
And "impv." ?

I see walla is used 2 times in
fawalli wajhakashatra almasjidi alharami = " Turn then Thy face in the direction of the sacred Mosque"
fawalloo wujoohakum shatrahu = " turn your faces in that direction"

So, should I conclude that the 3rd occurence of this root in the verse, in falanuwalliyannaka is from the verb walla in the imperfect active tense ?

Then, what do you think of the claim of Kamal Omar that the correct (according to arabic grammar as well to context) translation of falanuwalliyannaka is "We shall appoint you the governor", and not " We Shall turn thee" ?

Peace

wildguest1956

now when Allah says to the prophet "Nowalianaka" means makes you point in a specific direction,

Sorry, but I don't understand Nowalianaka.
Is it alanuwalliyannaka ?

the word alone should be "walia" but because it was said by someone as an action to happen to that one by the person saying it then we need "Oo" at the front hence it should be "Oowalia", but Allah uses the plurer to refer to Himeslf so the "Oo" will be "No", ie, the word becomes "Nowalia"

and because it was a future event or a conequence to something, the "Le" in front is required so it becomes "Le Nowalia" , and because it was directed to someone "Mohammad" we need the "naka" at the end, hence the whole word is

Le Nowalia Naka = Lenowlianaka

OK, I understand now... Many thanks...

If yes...

Why would not waliy be the noun meaning "governor" ?
Instead of the verb walla ?

simply because "Governor" means "Waali", can you see the double "a"?

how come a verb = a noun in the meaning? as well in all languages we have words that have double meaning and hence this is the main reason that root method is very flawed to be a standarised method to understand all Arabic vocabularies

but I agree that the verb also means to rule, another case of double meaning to the same word

OK, so, according to you, walla in lanuwalliyannaka can mean "turn" as well as "rule".

also the verse said the same message to all the believers not just the prophet "Fa Waloo" would that mean all believers will some how be governors or ruling something? i don't know but its possibilty is very remote

Because I think walla may mean "rule" (or "appoint as governor") in lanuwalliyannaka, and "turn" in fawaloo.
I will explain why in a next post insha allah.

Does the verb walla mean only "to turn" ?
Or does it mean "to appoint as a governor" too ?

It means to turn and it means to rule, the context is major factor to determine the meaning as long as it does not cause any contradiction with another area in the Quran, this is how the Quran explain itself

I agree.

Peace

wildguest1956

If yes...

Why would not waliy be the noun meaning "governor" ?
Instead of the verb walla ?

simply because "Governor" means "Waali", can you see the double "a"?

how come a verb = a noun in the meaning? as well in all languages we have words that have double meaning and hence this is the main reason that root method is very flawed to be a standarised method to understand all Arabic vocabularies

but I agree that the verb also means to rule, another case of double meaning to the same word

OK, so, according to you, walla in lanuwalliyannaka can mean "turn" as well as "rule".

Yes another question...
I what tense is the verb walla in walliya ?

Thanks

Wakas

peace JM,

Apologies, I cut&pasted the wrong part, as time was brief and I was doing it by memory. You may wish to correct your original post (as it says 2145).

grammar

impf. = imperfect = action in the process of being done
act. = active = active verb, i.e. the subject acts
imperative = "mood", order or command

falanuwalliyannaka = walli is in the impf. act.

Thus, do any of the other occurrences mean "governor"?

walla vb. (II) -

perf. act. 2142, 925, 957, 1746, 1818, 2710, 2780, 2831, 3052, 317, 4629, 4822

impf. act. 2115, 2144, 2177, 311, 4115, 6129, 815, 816, 2157, 3315, 4033, 5445, 5912

impv. 2144, 2144, 2149, 2150, 2150

pcple. act. 2148

Thus far, I have no opinion on KO's translation. I have not studied it, sorry.

Wakas

unknownuser

OK, so, according to you, walla in lanuwalliyannaka can mean "turn" as well as "rule".

Peace

not really according to me rather according to the arabic language vocabulary, hence the context is very imporant to determine the meaning of a multi meaning words

also the verse said the same message to all the believers not just the prophet "Fa Waloo" would that mean all believers will some how be governors or ruling something? i don't know but its possibilty is very remote

Because I think walla may mean "rule" (or "appoint as governor") in lanuwalliyannaka, and "turn" in fawaloo.
I will explain why in a next post insha allah.

ok, please post your explanation, please I a;so need to know what is the objective of the message that the prophet will be appointed as a governor if he was already apponited as a prophet? also governor to whom exactly if he was sent Rahmatan to all humanity?

also the tense of Walia in "LeOwalianaka" is not releveant because it is an ORDER that is why it must have "Oo" but because Allah uses the plurer it becomes "No" in this case the root will be used and a stress "Shadda" on the second letter will be added

the root is

Wa La Ya

to make it an order is by adding the "No" and the Stress "Shadda" on the second letter in the root which is "La" it should become "No Wa LLa Ya", that is why i stated the tense is not important when it comes to "to verbly order someone", in fact it is called in the arabic grammer "Fiel Amr" ie. "Order Verb"

peace

wildguest1956

impf. = imperfect = action in the process of being done
act. = active = active verb, i.e. the subject acts
imperative = "mood", order or command

falanuwalliyannaka = walli is in the impf. act.

Are you sure it is the imperfect active ?
I don't recognise this tense here.

Thus, do any of the other occurrences mean "governor"?

What do you (and Ahmed) think of the usage of the verb walla in ?

Allah only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith, and drive you out of your homes, and support (others) in driving you out, from turning to them (tawallawhum) (for friendship and protection). It is such as turn to them( tawallahum) (in these circumstances), that do wrong.

Can it not be translated in as "To set yourself as protector" = "to protect" ?
Do you agree there is no ila = "to", making it hard to translate it by "turn to" ?

And in ?

Thus do we make the wrong-doers turn to (wallee) each other, because of what they earn.

Above is the translation of YusufAli, but free-minds renders it as "make as supporters", and Pickthal as "let have power".

Does it not prove that there are some verses in the quran where walla can be translated as "To set as protector/supporter/governor (walliy)" ?

wala vb. (I) -
impf. act. 9123

Could you check ?
I do not see it.

Peace & thanks

unknownuser

Bro JM

as I stated the word has two menaings, "To turn" or "To rule" or "To Guard"

in the two verse you posted it is clearly the "To guard" meaning

i.e. DO NOT TAKE THEM AS PROTECTORS (Guardians)

br, the owrd has two meanings and there hnudreds of arabic words that have two menings possibly three menings

peace