Who is this....a liar....an impostor?????
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Hi all,
Also, its an important message in the Quran to take, we do not have the right to judge other people. One thing that bothers me is how people talk about some people claim to be muslim and are not. Thats not fair, Allah is the judge. So I'd ask anyone who judges this group of folks here to reflect on that, and likewise, anyone here who likes to say all those other muslims are just posers, that is not your right to judge either. Just worry about your own faith, share your beliefs freely and peacefully, and leave the judging to God.
I agree. We are not to judge people. We are only to judge wrong acts(pertaining to law and order) and punish them for the purpose of maintaining order and peace on earth.
I cant understand how some Quran believers justify verbal abuses against another, with verses from Quran. To say, we are doing it in anger, is alright. But to say God allows us to do so, is associating God with something so wrong, shock and that imho, is much worse than the act itself.
Peace!
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I agree. We are not to judge people. We are only to judge wrong acts(pertaining to law and order) and punish them for the purpose of maintaining order and peace on earth
Interesting semantic difference. However, it has no Quranic basis. To Allah, your act and what's in your heart is one and the same
047.029 Or do those in whose hearts is a disease, think that God will not bring to light all their rancour
047.030 Had We so wiled, We could have shown them up to thee, and thou shouldst have known them by their marks but surely thou wilt know them by the tone of their speech! And God knows all that ye do.So the idea of 'terrorists and criminals shouldnt be judged because we don't know what in their hearts' is unsound according to Al-Quraan. If you act like so, you are so.
p.s The son of Nuh is a good example of when you BECOME your acts. Allah says 'Verily HE is an unrighteous act'. (innaHU amalun ghairu saleh, 11/46)
I cant understand how some Quran believers justify verbal abuses against another, with verses from Quran. To say, we are doing it in anger, is alright. But to say God allows us to do so, is associating God with something so wrong, and that imho, is much worse than the act itself.
Well, then al-quraan itself needs censoring because it commands us to say
'Ya Ayyuhal Kafiroon'.If one is interested in judging by the Book of Allah, then he needs to say that to those people at some point. I for one am not going to tell Allah 'would u mind using more politically correct language'.
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Hi Osiris,
That's unfortunate. Sadly, at 15 you may not have had reached the conclusion that you are qualified to read and understand the Quran for yourself. This is an overarching thing I noticed, a particular school of thought (or lack thereof) that preaches that the common person can not understand the Quran and therefore must rely on scholars who spend there lives studying it.
Yeah, 15 is such a young age when one tends to fall for peer pressure than think sense for oneself. In this case, islamic tradionalist's pressure. Becoz at that age, u dont want to be left out or isolated from the group.
But most of these Imams focus on young minds and brain wash them.I saw on news quite sometime back, in a video clip, where a young iraqi boy of 14, is asked why he is a suicide bomber. He replied ''I want to go to heaven and have 70 virgins and so, I will do it.''
Thats the level of brainwashing that happens.
This sort of leads me to an observation I hate to admit that I've made, because it sounds somewhat racist and I don't mean to be, but I can not simply deny it any more. I have alot of Pakistani friends, and I love them to death, but I find that the vast majority of them (not all) have a particular style of belief that is centered around the methodology I mentioned in the previous paragraph. Namely, there are scholars who know better, you should follow what they say, and you shouldn't question it. Naturally, therefore, they are very focused on things like halal food, the hadith, sleeping with your feet pointing towards (or is it away?) from Mecca, so on and so forth. Things that are not central in my particular interpretation of Quran.
On the other side of the coin, most of my arab muslim friends tend to have a belief system more similar to mine. They will eat meat that is not labeled halal, and they are not concerned with some of the smaller things mentioned above.
Is my observation wrong? Is it unfair? Or is there something underlying the way that Islam spread through translation to the region that is now pakistan that led to this? I have always felt that people there are more 'ulama-centric'.
In any case, I am not trying to be judgemental, that would be hypocritical considering my last post, but I can't help but notice the difference in my life experiences.I'd say there are all kind of people everwhere.
But yeah, in places where arabic is not understood as its not their first language, every one do rely on the imams to give them interpretation of Quran. And so, basically, we end up with what the Imam thinks Quran says and not necessarily what the Quran says.As for the Halal issue, I came across that one too. A pakistani colleague once told me in kind of a mocking manner, that arabs believe that we can eat non halal meat(halal as in the act of butchering) by mentioning God's name. It was said in a tone, that u knw how arabs are.......(they believe in being suicide bombers as well, polygamy ........etc.) That was the first time I came to know such an interpretation even exsisted.At that point, I didnt know the real interpretation of those verses from Quran as well. But to be honest, I dont blame him for his opinion at all. He is just like many of us who were/are misguided.
So, I think the problem is people in general are misguided. The people who do know arabic and english should translate the Quran in a correct and accurate way for the people who dont know arabic. They should not put their own interpretations in the translation like many have seem to done, but instead merely translate arbic to english word to word without assuming any meaning by themselves.
THis would help people to understand Quran first hand by themselves.Peace!
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Hi Mquran,
Thanks for your post, it prompts me to clarify what I mean by judge.
So the idea of 'terrorists and criminals shouldnt be judged because we don't know what in their hearts' is unsound according to Al-Quraan. If you act like so, you are so.
I don't disagree with you on this, my statement was within the context of this thread in saying you can not know what is in a person's heart, you won't know the extent of their faith in God, so I mean we do not have the right to judge someones faith in Islam.
Naturally the Quran is very clear about justice, and laws against murder and suicide which clearly apply to terrorism and criminal acts. This is not the kind of judging I am talking about. It is in fact a muslims duty to judge against THESE kind of things.
But, in an example that applies to what I am talking about, suppose I meet a traditional muslim, and I tell him/her that there faith is weak because they follow things that are not in the Quran, and vice versa they say my faith is weak because I don't follow the hadith or don't eat halal. Here I am saying it is not my right to judge the strength of their faith and vice versa not their right to judge my faith because these are things that are only clearly apparent to Allah and Allah alone.
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my statement was within the context of this thread in saying you can not know what is in a person's heart, you won't know the extent of their faith in God, so I mean we do not have the right to judge someones faith in Islam.
Naturally the Quran is very clear about justice, and laws against murder and suicide which clearly apply to terrorism and criminal acts. This is not the kind of judging I am talking about. It is in fact a muslims duty to judge against THESE kind of things.
But, in an example that applies to what I am talking about, suppose I meet a traditional muslim, and I tell him/her that there faith is weak because they follow things that are not in the Quran, and vice versa they say my faith is weak because I don't follow the hadith or don't eat halal. Here I am saying it is not my right to judge the strength of their faith and vice versa not their right to judge my faith because these are things that are only clearly apparent to Allah and Allah alone.
Mine too.
Peace!
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Hi PM,
So, I think the problem is people in general are misguided. The people who do know arabic and english should translate the Quran in a correct and accurate way for the people who dont know arabic. They should not put their own interpretations in the translation like many have seem to done, but instead merely translate arbic to english word to word without assuming any meaning by themselves.
THis would help people to understand Quran first hand by themselves.I am currently searching for a more accurate translation of the Quran with my fiancee, who is fluent in both arabic and english, I'll happily share with you which one we end up picking. I know the Rashad Khalifa one said to be very accurate, but I heard two suras were taken out of this one, and I am not interested in the 19 theory nor that he believes he is a messenger. So I don't mind picking that one up, but I also want a second one to compare it with. My current one I would tell you to avoid because the translator definetely puts his interpretations in it.
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Osiris Yusuf Ali and Shakir transalation are good. If you don't know Arabic like me than also you can refer to Word to Word translation from eMuslim.com
Following is the link. But its not complete.
Word for Word Transalation of Qur'an
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Hi Osiris,
I am currently searching for a more accurate translation of the Quran with my fiancee, who is fluent in both arabic and english, I'll happily share with you which one we end up picking. I know the Rashad Khalifa one said to be very accurate, but I heard two suras were taken out of this one, and I am not interested in the 19 theory nor that he believes he is a messenger. So I don't mind picking that one up, but I also want a second one to compare it with. My current one I would tell you to avoid because the translator definetely puts his interpretations in it.
Thats very kind of you. Thank you. )
I've heard about RK theories only after joining this forum, but doesnt take much to see the absudity in the claim of being a messenger. Just my opinion. No offence meant to people who believe in him.
And as for the translations, I see FM has done a translation as well. But there are some(arabic speakers) who are not quite satisfied with the accuracy. Thats why its kind of confusing.
And another interesting fact that I learnt during my time in this forum from some really good arabic speakers, is that some words have too many meanings and so, a verse can mean different when used a particular meaning for that word etc.. so, in the end many ways to interpret the same verse.
Thats why I feel, someone who is really good in arabic should translate Quran in English, almost word to word, instead of adding or applying what they think, into it. So that readers themselves can know and understand the meanings and can understand the message by interpreting it themself.
Peace!
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Thanks KGB, I did quickly browse through Yusif Ali to look at the one Sura that I knew my copy translated incorrectly, and found that Yusif Ali and RK's version were very similar in translation (sura 611. So I may pick that one up.
Someday my arabic will be good enough to read the arabic, but right now I can only understand SOME suras if I hear them, and it takes me 5-10 minutes to read al fatiha!
Does Yusif Ali have an audio version I could listen to in my car, with audio translation as well?
I would love to get my hands on that! -
Your welcome Osiris. I don't read and trust RK translation. There are plenty of audio Qirat website on internet but never seen translation audio.
You can also refer to Dr. Shabbir Ahmed QXP. He is very much influenced by G. A. Pervaiz. You can trust Dr. Shabbir Ahmed translation.
QXP
Look at eMuslim Word for Word translation. It is helping me to understand message more clearly.
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Hi all,
Yeah, I have also found Yusuf ali one to be good so far. so, I am sticking to it for now, too.
Though this translation also conforms to the traditional view of halal, as in act of butchering.
Thats why it becomes necessary to confirm the translation of almost every verse.
Peace!
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IMHO, a translation of the quran can only be a translation of the understanding of the translator.
I think the best way to explore the quran is to study one topic at a time... Reading the articles of FM can be a good start.
But it is very difficult to truly understand the quran by reading it surah after surah... to understand a verse, it is better to read all verses expressing the same ideas...
IMHO, the most interesting translations are those of Muhammad Asad, Muhammad Ali, and Shabbir Ahmed.
The ones of Sher Ali, GA Parwez, and Kamal Omar are worth having a look too.
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/EnglishTranslations.htmPeace
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Sher Ali is Ahmadi (Qadiani) so be careful when readking Sher Ali.
Yes, Muhammad Ali is an Ahmadi too. Muhammad Asad is a sunni, and the other ones are heretics....
You have always to be careful when you read a translation... That's why I have said "a translation of the quran can only be a translation of the understanding of the translator"...
But we should try to judge people on their works, and not on their names, or on the sunni propaganda upon them...
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I don't disagree with you on this, my statement was within the context of this thread in saying you can not know what is in a person's heart, you won't know the extent of their faith in God, so I mean we do not have the right to judge someones faith in Islam.
Sorry, to me, this doesn't conform to al-quraan. To me, imaan automatically leads to al-islaam (see 43/69 and 3/84). Therefore, when one acts outside the bounds set by Allah, it's his heart which errs. Please look at below
As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe.
comment warning is something external....God hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur).
comment God's telling you about thier HEARTS. Imaan resides in the heart.So im afraid I can't agree with you.
But, in an example that applies to what I am talking about, suppose I meet a traditional muslim, and I tell him/her that there faith is weak because they follow things that are not in the Quran, and vice versa they say my faith is weak because I don't follow the hadith or don't eat halal. Here I am saying it is not my right to judge the strength of their faith and vice versa not their right to judge my faith because these are things that are only clearly apparent to Allah and Allah alone.
Sorry but this doesn't make sense. You have not brought al-quraan into this equation at all.
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JM IMHO, a translation of the quran can only be a translation of the understanding of the translator.
Agreed.
I think the best way to explore the quran is to study one topic at a time... Reading the articles of FM can be a good start
A good start but to me, a better start is to read Parwez's books and articles as well as (if you can find them) Kashif Ahmed Shehzada's works.
But it is very difficult to truly understand the quran by reading it surah after surah... to understand a verse, it is better to read all verses expressing the same ideas...
Disagreed. The arrangement of al-quraan is by Allah and as such carries much weight. JM, please read 'Coherence in The Quran' by Mustansir Mir. I've seen your research and I think you'd benefit from reading it.
IMHO, the most interesting translations are those of Muhammad Asad, Muhammad Ali, and Shabbir Ahmed.
The ones of Sher Ali, GA Parwez, and Kamal Omar are worth having a look too.
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/EnglishTranslations.htmAgreed. I admire Muhammad Ali's command of the language very much.
Sher Ali is Ahmadi (Qadiani) so be careful when readking Sher Ali.
Well, Qadiani's only manipulate (I should say 'extrapolate') the 'Ahmed' verse in chapter 61, right?
Ultimately, I advise everyone to study Arabic and read al-quraan directly. I come from a non-arabic speaking background and studied it about 7 years ago and the difference it made to my reading in terms of 'feeling' the text was good. I also recommend using this translation
http//www.jimas.org/pubs.htm
by Dr Mohar Ali.
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043.069
YUSUFALI (Being) those who have believed in Our Signs and bowed (their wills to Ours) in Islam.
PICKTHAL (Ye) who believed Our revelations and were self-surrendered,
SHAKIR Those who believed in Our communications and were submissiveAnd
003.084
YUSUFALI Say "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)."
PICKTHAL Say (O Muhammad) We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and that which was vouchsafed unto Moses and Jesus and the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered.
SHAKIR Say We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us, and what was revealed to Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq and Yaqoub and the tribes, and what was given to Musa and Isa and to the prophets from their Lord; we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit.Sorry, to me, this doesn't conform to al-quraan. To me, imaan automatically leads to al-islaam (see 43/69 and 3/84). Therefore, when one acts outside the bounds set by Allah, it's his heart which errs. Please look at below
Who disputed that? Off course it does. I don't see how the suras you reference and I've pasted suggest that you are permitted to pass judgement on the level of someone elses faith?
God hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur).
comment God's telling you about thier HEARTS. Imaan resides in the heart.Yes, God is telling you that Imaan resides in the heart. That same sura describes the penalty that ALLAH has waiting for them
016.109
YUSUFALI Without doubt, in the Hereafter they will perish.
PICKTHAL Assuredly in the Hereafter they are the losers.
SHAKIR No doubt that in the hereafter they will be the losers.Explain to me how you are able to see what is in someones heart ?
I'm sorry, I dont require you to agree with me off course, but you have not actually quoted anything from the Quran that actually says YOU may judge someone elses faith.
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OsirisWho disputed that? Off course it does. I don't see how the suras you reference and I've pasted suggest that you are permitted to pass judgement on the level of someone elses faith?
The verse I quoted tell you that it's not possible to have imaan (which is in the heart) and not be in Islaam.
If you agree to that, then you'll agree that someone committing kufr cannot be a mumin.
What do you understand by 'pass judgement' ? If you're expecting a courtroom with a judge in a powdered wig, then you're a little off base. Judgement here refers to your relationship strategies with people. When people act outside the laws of Allah, then God tells u about them and you act accordingly. This is what I mean by 'judge', not punish by any means.
Explain to me how you are able to see what is in someones heart ?
I'm not but I am able to see their behaviour and God tells me what indicates about thier hearts (see 2/6-7)
I'm sorry, I dont require you to agree with me off course, but you have not actually quoted anything from the Quran that actually says YOU may judge someone elses faith.
But you agree that we may judge people through their behaviour? Or are you saying we shouldn't judge at all?
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Well, I think we are speaking about two different forms of judging. I am talking about not judging that which you can not discern. That doesnt mean you shouldn't make decisions on who you will or won't associate with based on the Quran. But there are certain things to which Allah is the be prime judge and should be left to Him. I don't really know how to say it, its just a sense or interpretation I get when I read the Quran, from the frequency in which we are told Allah is the primary judge and such. I agree, the Quran does have sections that tell us to judge, but in my interpretation, they are talking about either legal issues or deciding which behaviors you can or can not incorperate from people of the book.
If you agree to that, then you'll agree that someone committing kufr cannot be a mumin.
I don't think of it in absolute terms like this. Our lives are dynamic, sometimes we are good, and sometimes we make mistakes. Our lives are a summation of deeds and sins that we will be accounted for in the Day of Judgement. It is a complex canvas painted over a lifetime and that is why Allah is the judge.
If we learn from our sins, and reject the behavior, and ask forgiveness from Allah, then insha'allah, He is most wise and merciful. So, if someone committed sin and has since left that behavior behind, then I think they can be mumin.
Personally, I have committed sin, and I learned from it, and am stronger in opposition of those behaviors today because I did learn from those mistakes. It strengthened my faith to say, 'yeah, I now have proven the wisdom of the Quran to myself' by learning from those mistakes. Will I never be a momen because of things that I long ago left behind?
Only Allah knows. -
Well, I think we are speaking about two different forms of judging. I am talking about not judging that which you can not discern. That doesnt mean you shouldn't make decisions on who you will or won't associate with based on the Quran. But there are certain things to which Allah is the be prime judge and should be left to Him. I don't really know how to say it, its just a sense or interpretation I get when I read the Quran, from the frequency in which we are told Allah is the primary judge and such. I agree, the Quran does have sections that tell us to judge, but in my interpretation, they are talking about either legal issues or deciding which behaviors you can or can not incorperate from people of the book.
Seems that we agree. What do you feel that Allah alone can judge then?
I don't think of it in absolute terms like this. Our lives are dynamic, sometimes we are good, and sometimes we make mistakes. Our lives are a summation of deeds and sins that we will be accounted for in the Day of Judgement. It is a complex canvas painted over a lifetime and that is why Allah is the judge.
Agreed. It's possible to shift between either position easily. Of course, at the end, Allah is al-hakeem.
If we learn from our sins, and reject the behavior, and ask forgiveness from Allah, then insha'allah, He is most wise and merciful. So, if someone committed sin and has since left that behavior behind, then I think they can be mumin.
Yes, agreed.
If we learn from our sins, and reject the behavior, and ask forgiveness from Allah, then insha'allah, He is most wise and merciful. So, if someone committed sin and has since left that behavior behind, then I think they can be mumin.
Personally, I have committed sin, and I learned from it, and am stronger in opposition of those behaviors today because I did learn from those mistakes. It strengthened my faith to say, 'yeah, I now have proven the wisdom of the Quran to myself' by learning from those mistakes. Will I never be a momen because of things that I long ago left behind?No, you've misunderstood me. Kufr is a state which you reject. Once you stop and believe, then you're a mumin and muslim. I'm referring to people who keep on to thier kufr, rejecting Allah's judgement.