Virgin Birth

nadeem

Hi Everyone,

Dear Brother AhmadBahgat,

I wonder why Allah chose Isa ONLY to tell us that the likeness of Isa is with Allah as the likeness of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, Be, and he was.

Because people said he was god. Could that be the reason? God wanted to make manifest that jesus was like adam, a man. Not a god!

Nadeem

The_Sufi

This is the kind of misunderstanding when you try Quan Alone.

These are Allah's laws of creation. And Allah does not change His laws (4823).

Klinefeld mosaic and monogenesis are completely within the unchanging laws of nature.

The_Sufi

Could that be the reason?

No because the paralel with mankind is drawn with being initially created without parents but by preordainment. Isa (PBUH) is like a second Mankind. In fact if anyone has read "The curse of Adam" it is predicted that there will be a second monogenesis mankind which will in the future eventually replace Adam (PBUH).

Tay

Peace Sufi,

This is the kind of misunderstanding when you try Quan Alone.

I understand you perfectly, but you're building a case for a faulty premise...

We all know Marym (PBUH) became pregnant without sex.

Peace,
Tay

The_Sufi

Why is it faulty?

All the commentators even though they be christian and not muslim up until the beginning of the dis-enlightenment agree with it, as does genetic science.

unknownuser

Peace Ahmed,

You stated

I wonder why Allah chose Isa ONLY to tell us that the likeness of Isa is with Allah as the likeness of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, Be, and he was.

3020 Among His Signs is this, that He created you from dust;

Who is this in reference to? See also 1837, 225, 3511, 4067 etc.

Hi Tay

Mate you got me wrong, I only meant from the prophets, sorry if I expressed it wrong, I really meant the statement of "Isa Like Adam"

We know that Adam has no father nor mother, and Isa has no father, there is sure a similiraty here, not unique though because Adam's partner was also created by a miracle

I meant FROM THE PROPHETS BRO, because Jesus birth without a father created contraversory and I believe that is why Allah linked him to Adam

Furthermore, according to 4068 "...when He decrees an affair, He only says to it Be, and it is". Notice, that this is not a special command just for Adam and Isa, it is whenever Allah decrees an affair.

Conclusion
Adam, Mankind, Isa = created from dust
Adam, Mankind, Isa = created via the "Be" command

I didn't mean all that mate

Was any human described as like adam in the Quran other than Isa?, this is the question you need to respond to mate

You stated

i wonder the muslims who say that Isa had a father, where they got this from?

The Qur'an clearly spells out the process of human creation, ie, pairs mating, seed, embryo, etc. A child comes from a mother and a father. These are Allah's laws of creation. And Allah does not change His laws (4823).

I'm sorry mate, Allah creates the laws and He can break it any time He wants

For example the law of the humna re-production that we know is a result of a man and a woman, that is what applys on me, you and all of us, however if you think of all other possibilties you will see that Allah has done it all

All possibilities of re-production are

a man and a woman, we know that already and that is the general law
from man only ( Adam's partner was created by Allah from man only )
from woman only ( Isa was created by Allah from woman only )
from nothing ( Adam was created by Allah from nothing )

See, Allah has done it all and can break any law He created any time. I can also show you that Allah said about the heaven dwellers that they will stay there forever unless He wants otherwise, same with the hell dwellers He said that they will stay there forever unless He wants otherwise, you see He can change His laws any time and no one can question Him even if that law is not just, or can you question a God? I can't, He is mighty and I'm just a mere slave

Does the Qur'an ever say that Isa did not have a father? If not, then where did you get this info from?

Not explicitly but I guess an 11 years old child will guess it right when fed with all the info about the all the parties involved from the Quran

Unless you are suggesting that Mariam was a liar when the Quran told us that she wondered on how she will have a baby while no man touched her?

SHE "HERSELF" SAID WHEN SHE KNEW THAT SHE WILL BE PREGANANT SOON THAT NO MAN TOUCHED HER, HENCE SHE MUST HAVE BEEN A VIRGIN

Of course she was a virgin, that's why she was surprised to hear the news. That doesn't mean that she remained a virgin. It's like this A 16 year-old boy is talking to his father. His father says, "I have good news for you. You will be driving a brand new car". The kid says, "how can I drive a brand new car when I don't even have a driver's license yet?"

Then the virgin is not the issue, we both agree, what you are saying that she married soon after and had a baby?

nice try Tay lol

Read the Quran mate, it clearly stated that when she delivered tha baby the jews came rushing accusing her of wrong doings then Isa spoke to them while he was a baby to support and clear his mother.

But the kid will have a license in the near future. No need to break the laws. wink

Not sure what you mean !!, would that mean he had a father?

The ayat concerning Maryam never state that she was impregnated at the moment of the news. It is a prophecy of something that will happen in the future. If the conception was immaculate, then why wasn't she pregnant right away? Why the time delay? In fact, there isn't even a need for a pregnancy cycle if Isa was being born without a father. Surely Maryam could have given birth on the spot.

The facts don't add up to the preconception, bro.

Peace,
Tay

Sorry mate, I don't care she fell pregnant on the spot of 10 years later neither I care she deliverd in a month of 9 months, all I care about that when she delivered the baby they came rushing accusing her of the wrong doings as how she had that baby, now an average human will understand that they were accusing her as such because when she had the baby she suppose to be married to a man, unless you are suggesting that she slept with Joseph without being married and Joseph at the moment of confrontation with the worst accustaions he disappeared and we never heard from him since but left his newly born baby to defend Mariam?

now I need a hell of a break, thank you

peace

unknownuser

Salaams guys,

And check this please "Someones Trans"

"
1916
And mention in the book Mary when evil disposition/happening (took effect) away from her family a place (an) open dwelling .Then she took herself from them ,a screen/for protection, so we sent to her our spirit jibreel and he appeared before her bearing good news in all respects???????????.how can I have a son when not the status I am going towards bears good news nor I am a slave/prostitute.

just something i came accross,may be right ,but i believe only Allah with his infinite Knowledge Knows what is the truth .Salaams.

From lanes.
Root =B,TH. Lanes p172.
BaTHa?a ,BaTHaout= He was or became foul ,unseemly or obscene.
BaTHaa = He was ,or became ,evil in disposition/condition disliked or hated.
Anta=Thou/she/it.
Hejaban=He ,it ,veiled,concealed,hid,covered,or protected,him,it.
Sanee=High or exalted in Rank or condition
From qd.
Yum=purpose a thing,aim at, go towards.
S=An adverb prefixed to imperfect of the verbs to denote the meaning of future.

Basharun = Bearing good news.
Basharan=Bearing good news.
Sharqiyyan = open dwelling place qd288."

God Bless.

TheNabi

Peace

Mate you got me wrong, I only meant from the prophets, sorry if I expressed it wrong, I really meant the statement of "Isa Like Adam"

We know that Adam has no father nor mother, and Isa has no father, there is sure a similiraty here, not unique though because Adam's partner was also created by a miracle

Well I will not go down the road leading to Oz, but I believe God is telling us that Jesus is a man like the rest of us, born of a mother impregnated by her male counterpart. God linked him to mankind/adam, not a man who had not mother or father, of which Jesus according to you, did have a mother. So they are really not so much alike and suffice it to say the comarison does not make sense.

Was any human described as like adam in the Quran other than Isa?

Yes, he created us from dust ! Jesus is created via the same process . For any acts of creation God determines, He says be and it starts becoming.

Joe

KGB

Prophet Isa virgin birth stories were written to give Mariam the status where she is worshiped as Mother of God. Qur'an simply did not recorded the events of her marriage to Joseph The Carpenter. Prophet Isa was the son and Joseph The Carpenter and Mariam. The stories which Sunni Imams have included in hadiths that Prophet Isa is alive living in heaven are based on Gospel. Qur'an do not provide any proof that Jesus is still alive. The fact is that Qur'an says that all the previous Prophets at the time of Prophet Mohammad (SAW) time were dead.

Time to move on.

bmbmm

I sometimes thought she was cloned.

The_Sufi

Yes, monogenesis. At least the twin brother inside her was. It is the best explanation.

@KGB, the virgin birth doctrine is believed by the nestorians who objected to the use of and rejected the term "Mother of God", so it has nothing to do with that. Where do you get the idea Joseph was his father? do you accept or reject the Hadith? If the imams throughout hisdtory have found some truth in the gospels what qualifications does anyone here have to say we are better than them?

stillearning

salaam sufi

P.S. I am no genetics expert but at dinner with genetics experts the condition was explained to me in very simple terms. Twins one klinefelter syndrome boy one normal girl are reabsorbed at stem-cell stage into one mosaic/chimera body which to all intents and purposes looks & thinks female except for the fact that her twin brother has been merged with her. If monogenesis were to occur -which can occur in all mamals- there is a 50/50 chance that she can either give birth to her clone or to her "dead" twin brother instead. I am pretty certain they did say this is a klinefeld mosaic.

You obviousouly know very little genetics or mechanism of human birth.
Otherwise you would not have made the above statement.
From our knowldge of science today the above is almost impossible.
I think you should read peacefulmuslims response then you may get vague understanding of the subject.
othewise I am afraid the whole discussion is absolutely bananas
regards

The_Sufi

Well of course I don't know if anyone who has posted here knows more about Human genetics than people like Chris Ponting and Martin Farrall http//hmg.oxfordjournals.org/ but if you do perhaps you should contact write to correct them if you are certain everything I have written here about mosaic/chimera anomalies and monogenesis is fallacious.

And should I be embarrassed that I am not dishonest enough to even hint at giving the impression I might be qualified to correct them nor centuries of the greatest Islamic scholars.

I just learned something exciting and thought it would be nice to share it with like-minded people, but it seems there are not many like-minded people here.

jonny_k

Salam The Nabi,

Well I will not go down the road leading to Oz, but I believe God is telling us that Jesus is a man like the rest of us, born of a mother impregnated by her male counterpart. God linked him to mankind/adam, not a man who had not mother or father, of which Jesus according to you, did have a mother. So they are really not so much alike and suffice it to say the comarison does not make sense.

JK- Heh??! Whats the use of comparing Jesus to other mankind/mankind in general when that was already apparent? It doesnt make much sense to me. Read the verse carefully again
The example of Jesus, as far as GOD is concerned, is the same as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, "Be," and he was.
This verse doesnt make any sense if Jesus was born just normally like anyone else. Furthermore consider the following verse in the same sura some verses before
She(Mary) said, "My Lord, how can I have a son, when no man has touched me?" He said, "GOD thus creates whatever He wills. To have anything done, He simply says to it, `Be,' and it is.
And again we have the phrase "be, and it is". This statement is unique to a supernatural or better extra-universal influence. Scientifically speaking we now know there are worm holes which can trnasport us and the energy from one iniverse to another. So i dont see any scientific probs there either. Again it is clear from the verse that Mary obviously knew that she never had any sexual relationships yet was conceiving a son. Thats what the verse clearly implies and taking both together we can unambiguously conclude Direct Divine Intervention. GOD Bless!

stillearning

salaam usufi

I just learned something exciting and thought it would be nice to share it with like-minded people, but it seems there are not many like-minded people here.

Apologies.
Appreciate your honesty.
regards

TheNabi

Peace

Whats the use of comparing Jesus to other mankind/mankind in general when that was already apparent?

Because people like you still believe otherwise.

God repeats the signs. Few grasp them even after that.

Joe

unknownuser

Hi Sufi,

Well of course I don't know if anyone who has posted here knows more about Human genetics than people like Chris Ponting and Martin Farrall http//hmg.oxfordjournals.org/ but if you do perhaps you should contact write to correct them if you are certain everything I have written here about mosaic/chimera anomalies and monogenesis is fallacious.

Can u please provide a link to that particular article from oxford journal of human molecular genetics, where from u got ur information?

Peace!

KGB

Salaam Alleikum Sufi

The birth of Prophet Isa is not the mandatory part of our faith. We only have to believe that Prophet Isa was Messanger of God.

Regarding hadiths we inshaAllah discuss that in seperate topic in Hadith section. Just stick with the Free Minds.

truth

And again we have the phrase "be, and it is". This statement is unique to a supernatural or better extra-universal influence.

This is magical thinking with conjecture, and just plainly false.

1640 To have anything done, we simply say to it, "Be," and it becomes.

Innama qawluna lishay-in itha aradnahu an naqoola lahu kun fayakoonu

To have anything done the same command applies. There is no supernatural things and no miracles. The laws are set in place by the God and things obey those laws.

Regards.

Tay

Peace Sufi, and Ahmed,

Sufi, you stated

All the commentators even though they be christian and not muslim up until the beginning of the dis-enlightenment agree with it, as does genetic science.

Are you talking about the virgin birth? Are you saying that all of genetic science agrees that Maryam gave birth without a partner??

Ahmed, you stated

We know that Adam has no father nor mother, and Isa has no father, there is sure a similiraty here, not unique though because Adam's partner was also created by a miracle

This is subjective similarity. In other words, not similar.
1 parent and 0 parents are not the same. So, your conclusion is false.
What, then, is the likeness?? Thankfully, Allah already told us created from dust, via the command "be". Same as mankind. wink

I meant FROM THE PROPHETS BRO, because Jesus birth without a father created contraversory and I believe that is why Allah linked him to Adam

The most controversial aspect of the prophet Isa was not how he was born, but what was his essence. People thought he was "God" incarnate. That's why the likeness is drawn to Adam, because he was just a man, and further, just a messenger, and we make no distinction between the messengers.

This is a common theme throughout the Qur'an brother.

Was any human described as like adam in the Quran other than Isa?, this is the question you need to respond to mate

I did. What is "like Adam"? God says, it's that he was created from dust via the "Be" command. This is the same way we(mankind) were created. What's the problem??

I'm sorry mate, Allah creates the laws and He can break it any time He wants

"Can" and "will" are 2 different things. Do you suggest we ignore God's words in 4823??

Not explicitly but I guess an 11 years old child will guess it right when fed with all the info about the all the parties involved from the Quran

Only if they were fed the preconceptions that all Muslims were fed, ie, virgin birth, Isa flying up to heaven, etc. Without preconceptions, the evidence speaks for itself.

Unless you are suggesting that Mariam was a liar when the Quran told us that she wondered on how she will have a baby while no man touched her?

Why would you even mention that and one sentence later agree with me...

Then the virgin is not the issue, we both agree, what you are saying that she married soon after and had a baby?

So, I'll ignore your first question and answer this one. I don't know if it was soon after. Maybe it was a week, maybe a year, maybe 5 years. If you'll notice, there is no mention of time.

Read the Quran mate, it clearly stated that when she delivered tha baby the jews came rushing accusing her of wrong doings then Isa spoke to them while he was a baby to support and clear his mother.

I did, brother, and Isa mentioned the praises of Allah, but never mentioned his miraculous birth. Isn't that strange? Why didn't Isa explain his miraculous birth to all these people who were asking questions?. And then in 5110, Allah is adressing Isa, and reminding him of all the blessings given to him and his mother. Yet Allah does not mention the miraculous birth. Did Allah forget this paramount event?

Sorry mate, I don't care she fell pregnant on the spot of 10 years later neither I care she deliverd in a month of 9 months, all I care about that when she delivered the baby they came rushing accusing her of the wrong doings as how she had that baby, now an average human will understand that they were accusing her as such because when she had the baby she suppose to be married to a man, unless you are suggesting that she slept with Joseph without being married and Joseph at the moment of confrontation with the worst accustaions he disappeared and we never heard from him since but left his newly born baby to defend Mariam?

I'm not suggesting that Joseph was the father at all. I'm suggesting that she got married to someone and for whatever reason, that someone wasn't there when Isa was born. Maybe he died. Maybe they married privately. Allah did not feel the need to inform us of what happened to him, just as we are left without information on many of the prophets' spouses. Obviously, it is not essential for our guidance. So, since the guy is not mentioned, we automatically assume that Isa was born without a father???

That's quite a leap.

Again, I reiterate, without preconceived ideas, the notion that Isa was born without a father is not supported by the ayat of the Qur'an.

Peace,
Tay