Virgin Birth
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Peace Ahmed,
You stated
I wonder why Allah chose Isa ONLY to tell us that the likeness of Isa is with Allah as the likeness of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, Be, and he was.
3020 Among His Signs is this, that He created you from dust;
Who is this in reference to? See also 1837, 225, 3511, 4067 etc.
Hi Tay
Mate you got me wrong, I only meant from the prophets, sorry if I expressed it wrong, I really meant the statement of "Isa Like Adam"
We know that Adam has no father nor mother, and Isa has no father, there is sure a similiraty here, not unique though because Adam's partner was also created by a miracle
I meant FROM THE PROPHETS BRO, because Jesus birth without a father created contraversory and I believe that is why Allah linked him to Adam
Furthermore, according to 4068 "...when He decrees an affair, He only says to it Be, and it is". Notice, that this is not a special command just for Adam and Isa, it is whenever Allah decrees an affair.
Conclusion
Adam, Mankind, Isa = created from dust
Adam, Mankind, Isa = created via the "Be" commandI didn't mean all that mate
Was any human described as like adam in the Quran other than Isa?, this is the question you need to respond to mate
You stated
i wonder the muslims who say that Isa had a father, where they got this from?
The Qur'an clearly spells out the process of human creation, ie, pairs mating, seed, embryo, etc. A child comes from a mother and a father. These are Allah's laws of creation. And Allah does not change His laws (4823).
I'm sorry mate, Allah creates the laws and He can break it any time He wants
For example the law of the humna re-production that we know is a result of a man and a woman, that is what applys on me, you and all of us, however if you think of all other possibilties you will see that Allah has done it all
All possibilities of re-production are
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a man and a woman, we know that already and that is the general law
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from man only ( Adam's partner was created by Allah from man only )
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from woman only ( Isa was created by Allah from woman only )
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from nothing ( Adam was created by Allah from nothing )
See, Allah has done it all and can break any law He created any time. I can also show you that Allah said about the heaven dwellers that they will stay there forever unless He wants otherwise, same with the hell dwellers He said that they will stay there forever unless He wants otherwise, you see He can change His laws any time and no one can question Him even if that law is not just, or can you question a God? I can't, He is mighty and I'm just a mere slave
Does the Qur'an ever say that Isa did not have a father? If not, then where did you get this info from?
Not explicitly but I guess an 11 years old child will guess it right when fed with all the info about the all the parties involved from the Quran
Unless you are suggesting that Mariam was a liar when the Quran told us that she wondered on how she will have a baby while no man touched her?
SHE "HERSELF" SAID WHEN SHE KNEW THAT SHE WILL BE PREGANANT SOON THAT NO MAN TOUCHED HER, HENCE SHE MUST HAVE BEEN A VIRGIN
Of course she was a virgin, that's why she was surprised to hear the news. That doesn't mean that she remained a virgin. It's like this A 16 year-old boy is talking to his father. His father says, "I have good news for you. You will be driving a brand new car". The kid says, "how can I drive a brand new car when I don't even have a driver's license yet?"
Then the virgin is not the issue, we both agree, what you are saying that she married soon after and had a baby?
nice try Tay lol
Read the Quran mate, it clearly stated that when she delivered tha baby the jews came rushing accusing her of wrong doings then Isa spoke to them while he was a baby to support and clear his mother.
But the kid will have a license in the near future. No need to break the laws. wink
Not sure what you mean !!, would that mean he had a father?
The ayat concerning Maryam never state that she was impregnated at the moment of the news. It is a prophecy of something that will happen in the future. If the conception was immaculate, then why wasn't she pregnant right away? Why the time delay? In fact, there isn't even a need for a pregnancy cycle if Isa was being born without a father. Surely Maryam could have given birth on the spot.
The facts don't add up to the preconception, bro.
Peace,
TaySorry mate, I don't care she fell pregnant on the spot of 10 years later neither I care she deliverd in a month of 9 months, all I care about that when she delivered the baby they came rushing accusing her of the wrong doings as how she had that baby, now an average human will understand that they were accusing her as such because when she had the baby she suppose to be married to a man, unless you are suggesting that she slept with Joseph without being married and Joseph at the moment of confrontation with the worst accustaions he disappeared and we never heard from him since but left his newly born baby to defend Mariam?
now I need a hell of a break, thank you
peace
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Salaams guys,
And check this please "Someones Trans"
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1916
And mention in the book Mary when evil disposition/happening (took effect) away from her family a place (an) open dwelling .Then she took herself from them ,a screen/for protection, so we sent to her our spirit jibreel and he appeared before her bearing good news in all respects???????????.how can I have a son when not the status I am going towards bears good news nor I am a slave/prostitute.just something i came accross,may be right ,but i believe only Allah with his infinite Knowledge Knows what is the truth .Salaams.
From lanes.
Root =B,TH. Lanes p172.
BaTHa?a ,BaTHaout= He was or became foul ,unseemly or obscene.
BaTHaa = He was ,or became ,evil in disposition/condition disliked or hated.
Anta=Thou/she/it.
Hejaban=He ,it ,veiled,concealed,hid,covered,or protected,him,it.
Sanee=High or exalted in Rank or condition
From qd.
Yum=purpose a thing,aim at, go towards.
S=An adverb prefixed to imperfect of the verbs to denote the meaning of future.Basharun = Bearing good news.
Basharan=Bearing good news.
Sharqiyyan = open dwelling place qd288."God Bless.
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Peace
Mate you got me wrong, I only meant from the prophets, sorry if I expressed it wrong, I really meant the statement of "Isa Like Adam"
We know that Adam has no father nor mother, and Isa has no father, there is sure a similiraty here, not unique though because Adam's partner was also created by a miracle
Well I will not go down the road leading to Oz, but I believe God is telling us that Jesus is a man like the rest of us, born of a mother impregnated by her male counterpart. God linked him to mankind/adam, not a man who had not mother or father, of which Jesus according to you, did have a mother. So they are really not so much alike and suffice it to say the comarison does not make sense.
Was any human described as like adam in the Quran other than Isa?
Yes, he created us from dust ! Jesus is created via the same process . For any acts of creation God determines, He says be and it starts becoming.
Joe
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Prophet Isa virgin birth stories were written to give Mariam the status where she is worshiped as Mother of God. Qur'an simply did not recorded the events of her marriage to Joseph The Carpenter. Prophet Isa was the son and Joseph The Carpenter and Mariam. The stories which Sunni Imams have included in hadiths that Prophet Isa is alive living in heaven are based on Gospel. Qur'an do not provide any proof that Jesus is still alive. The fact is that Qur'an says that all the previous Prophets at the time of Prophet Mohammad (SAW) time were dead.
Time to move on.
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Yes, monogenesis. At least the twin brother inside her was. It is the best explanation.
@KGB, the virgin birth doctrine is believed by the nestorians who objected to the use of and rejected the term "Mother of God", so it has nothing to do with that. Where do you get the idea Joseph was his father? do you accept or reject the Hadith? If the imams throughout hisdtory have found some truth in the gospels what qualifications does anyone here have to say we are better than them?
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salaam sufi
P.S. I am no genetics expert but at dinner with genetics experts the condition was explained to me in very simple terms. Twins one klinefelter syndrome boy one normal girl are reabsorbed at stem-cell stage into one mosaic/chimera body which to all intents and purposes looks & thinks female except for the fact that her twin brother has been merged with her. If monogenesis were to occur -which can occur in all mamals- there is a 50/50 chance that she can either give birth to her clone or to her "dead" twin brother instead. I am pretty certain they did say this is a klinefeld mosaic.
You obviousouly know very little genetics or mechanism of human birth.
Otherwise you would not have made the above statement.
From our knowldge of science today the above is almost impossible.
I think you should read peacefulmuslims response then you may get vague understanding of the subject.
othewise I am afraid the whole discussion is absolutely bananas
regards -
Well of course I don't know if anyone who has posted here knows more about Human genetics than people like Chris Ponting and Martin Farrall http//hmg.oxfordjournals.org/ but if you do perhaps you should contact write to correct them if you are certain everything I have written here about mosaic/chimera anomalies and monogenesis is fallacious.
And should I be embarrassed that I am not dishonest enough to even hint at giving the impression I might be qualified to correct them nor centuries of the greatest Islamic scholars.
I just learned something exciting and thought it would be nice to share it with like-minded people, but it seems there are not many like-minded people here.
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Salam The Nabi,
Well I will not go down the road leading to Oz, but I believe God is telling us that Jesus is a man like the rest of us, born of a mother impregnated by her male counterpart. God linked him to mankind/adam, not a man who had not mother or father, of which Jesus according to you, did have a mother. So they are really not so much alike and suffice it to say the comarison does not make sense.
JK- Heh??! Whats the use of comparing Jesus to other mankind/mankind in general when that was already apparent? It doesnt make much sense to me. Read the verse carefully again
The example of Jesus, as far as GOD is concerned, is the same as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, "Be," and he was.
This verse doesnt make any sense if Jesus was born just normally like anyone else. Furthermore consider the following verse in the same sura some verses before
She(Mary) said, "My Lord, how can I have a son, when no man has touched me?" He said, "GOD thus creates whatever He wills. To have anything done, He simply says to it, `Be,' and it is.
And again we have the phrase "be, and it is". This statement is unique to a supernatural or better extra-universal influence. Scientifically speaking we now know there are worm holes which can trnasport us and the energy from one iniverse to another. So i dont see any scientific probs there either. Again it is clear from the verse that Mary obviously knew that she never had any sexual relationships yet was conceiving a son. Thats what the verse clearly implies and taking both together we can unambiguously conclude Direct Divine Intervention. GOD Bless! -
salaam usufi
I just learned something exciting and thought it would be nice to share it with like-minded people, but it seems there are not many like-minded people here.
Apologies.
Appreciate your honesty.
regards -
Hi Sufi,
Well of course I don't know if anyone who has posted here knows more about Human genetics than people like Chris Ponting and Martin Farrall http//hmg.oxfordjournals.org/ but if you do perhaps you should contact write to correct them if you are certain everything I have written here about mosaic/chimera anomalies and monogenesis is fallacious.
Can u please provide a link to that particular article from oxford journal of human molecular genetics, where from u got ur information?
Peace!
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Salaam Alleikum Sufi
The birth of Prophet Isa is not the mandatory part of our faith. We only have to believe that Prophet Isa was Messanger of God.
Regarding hadiths we inshaAllah discuss that in seperate topic in Hadith section. Just stick with the Free Minds.
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And again we have the phrase "be, and it is". This statement is unique to a supernatural or better extra-universal influence.
This is magical thinking with conjecture, and just plainly false.
1640 To have anything done, we simply say to it, "Be," and it becomes.
Innama qawluna lishay-in itha aradnahu an naqoola lahu kun fayakoonu
To have anything done the same command applies. There is no supernatural things and no miracles. The laws are set in place by the God and things obey those laws.
Regards.
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Peace Sufi, and Ahmed,
Sufi, you stated
All the commentators even though they be christian and not muslim up until the beginning of the dis-enlightenment agree with it, as does genetic science.
Are you talking about the virgin birth? Are you saying that all of genetic science agrees that Maryam gave birth without a partner??
Ahmed, you stated
We know that Adam has no father nor mother, and Isa has no father, there is sure a similiraty here, not unique though because Adam's partner was also created by a miracle
This is subjective similarity. In other words, not similar.
1 parent and 0 parents are not the same. So, your conclusion is false.
What, then, is the likeness?? Thankfully, Allah already told us created from dust, via the command "be". Same as mankind. winkI meant FROM THE PROPHETS BRO, because Jesus birth without a father created contraversory and I believe that is why Allah linked him to Adam
The most controversial aspect of the prophet Isa was not how he was born, but what was his essence. People thought he was "God" incarnate. That's why the likeness is drawn to Adam, because he was just a man, and further, just a messenger, and we make no distinction between the messengers.
This is a common theme throughout the Qur'an brother.
Was any human described as like adam in the Quran other than Isa?, this is the question you need to respond to mate
I did. What is "like Adam"? God says, it's that he was created from dust via the "Be" command. This is the same way we(mankind) were created. What's the problem??
I'm sorry mate, Allah creates the laws and He can break it any time He wants
"Can" and "will" are 2 different things. Do you suggest we ignore God's words in 4823??
Not explicitly but I guess an 11 years old child will guess it right when fed with all the info about the all the parties involved from the Quran
Only if they were fed the preconceptions that all Muslims were fed, ie, virgin birth, Isa flying up to heaven, etc. Without preconceptions, the evidence speaks for itself.
Unless you are suggesting that Mariam was a liar when the Quran told us that she wondered on how she will have a baby while no man touched her?
Why would you even mention that and one sentence later agree with me...
Then the virgin is not the issue, we both agree, what you are saying that she married soon after and had a baby?
So, I'll ignore your first question and answer this one. I don't know if it was soon after. Maybe it was a week, maybe a year, maybe 5 years. If you'll notice, there is no mention of time.
Read the Quran mate, it clearly stated that when she delivered tha baby the jews came rushing accusing her of wrong doings then Isa spoke to them while he was a baby to support and clear his mother.
I did, brother, and Isa mentioned the praises of Allah, but never mentioned his miraculous birth. Isn't that strange? Why didn't Isa explain his miraculous birth to all these people who were asking questions?. And then in 5110, Allah is adressing Isa, and reminding him of all the blessings given to him and his mother. Yet Allah does not mention the miraculous birth. Did Allah forget this paramount event?
Sorry mate, I don't care she fell pregnant on the spot of 10 years later neither I care she deliverd in a month of 9 months, all I care about that when she delivered the baby they came rushing accusing her of the wrong doings as how she had that baby, now an average human will understand that they were accusing her as such because when she had the baby she suppose to be married to a man, unless you are suggesting that she slept with Joseph without being married and Joseph at the moment of confrontation with the worst accustaions he disappeared and we never heard from him since but left his newly born baby to defend Mariam?
I'm not suggesting that Joseph was the father at all. I'm suggesting that she got married to someone and for whatever reason, that someone wasn't there when Isa was born. Maybe he died. Maybe they married privately. Allah did not feel the need to inform us of what happened to him, just as we are left without information on many of the prophets' spouses. Obviously, it is not essential for our guidance. So, since the guy is not mentioned, we automatically assume that Isa was born without a father???
That's quite a leap.
Again, I reiterate, without preconceived ideas, the notion that Isa was born without a father is not supported by the ayat of the Qur'an.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Ahmed,
Ahmed, you statedWe know that Adam has no father nor mother, and Isa has no father, there is sure a similiraty here, not unique though because Adam's partner was also created by a miracle
This is subjective similarity. In other words, not similar.
1 parent and 0 parents are not the same. So, your conclusion is false.Peace Tay
What coclusion you mean is false?, that Jesus was born without a father?
Well, how so confident you are that he did have a father?, who is his father? and why he was not there when the Jews accused Mariam with prostitution?
What, then, is the likeness?? Thankfully, Allah already told us created from dust, via the command "be". Same as mankind. wink
Well we all like Adam because we all was created from dust like him, but why Isa alone was chosen out of billions of peoples to suggest that he was like Adam?, you see the likeness is simply 'HE WAS BORN WITH A MIRACLE" ie. He has no father according to the evidences, Adam also has no father neither mother, both were born minaciously and there is no evidence to suggest that he had a father other than some mixed up Muslims who argue something that is not important as KGB stated rather they argue as if they had balls to go against the common knowledge, I do have balls to do it to BUT ONLY WHEN COMPELLING EVIDENCES PROVIDED, NOT SOME OUT OF NO WHERE LOGIC THAT MAKES MARIAM AND THE QUARN A PUZZLE FOR AN AVERAGE MUSLIM
I meant FROM THE PROPHETS BRO, because Jesus birth without a father created contraversory and I believe that is why Allah linked him to Adam
The most controversial aspect of the prophet Isa was not how he was born, but what was his essence.
well, then why you are arguing it then? thanks for making my previous point
People thought he was "God" incarnate.
I'm sorry, we are not discussing that he is a hod, we only discussing that he had a father or not, but we can discuss this in another thread if you wish
That's why the likeness is drawn to Adam, because he was just a man, and further, just a messenger, and we make no distinction between the messengers.
Nice try Tay, but you can keep trying hard to find a more unrealistic logic to follow, there was many others who were considered gods, like prophet Uzair, so why then Allah didn't say the Jesus and Uzair are like Adam?
"The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them how they are deluded away from the Truth!"
(30)
This is a common theme throughout the Qur'an brother.
Then answer 930 then mate, also not because we say Isa was born without a father will be like differentiating between the prophets, another nice try mate.
We are not the ones who said this, it is the evidences as gathered from the Quran and as I stated, an 11 years old will be able to process it logically, not just for the sake of opposing as many do while the issue is not an important issue to discuss other than the allegation you are supporting will make the Quran a mysterious book as well a very confusing one, in addition Mariam will look like a lair, as well the angels are deceivers because they didn't tell her that the good news will be fulfilled in a normal marriage sort of way with no miracle, and when she delivered the baby why the Hell she HOPED TO BE DEAD AND FORGOTTEN? I thought she would happy to deliver the good news hey, you see this proposed nonsense must make no sense, sorry.
Was any human described as like adam in the Quran other than Isa?, this is the question you need to respond to mate
I did. What is "like Adam"? God says, it's that he was created from dust via the "Be" command. This is the same way we(mankind) were created. What's the problem??
Not entirely accurate, because why Isa was selected out of billions to be the one to link to Adam?, as well the creation from dust is only there to show that HE DID NOT HAVE A FATHER LIKE ADAM DID NOT HAVE A FATHER AND A MOTHER.
ADAM WAS USED AS ANARGUMENT TO REFUTE THIS WHO THINK THAT IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR ISA NOT TO HAVE A FATHER
SO ALLAH USED AN EXAMPLE OF SOMEONE WHO DOES NOT HAVE NEITHER
Hence if they believe that Adam was not created without a father and a mother, why they reject that Isa was born without a father?, I thought the second is simpler on the God who did the first lol
I'm sorry mate, Allah creates the laws and He can break it any time He wants
"Can" and "will" are 2 different things. Do you suggest we ignore God's words in 4823??
it is not CAN neither WILL, sorry, it is MAY
also 4823 means what is in 4822 is the thing that will never change and possibly a few other verses prior to 4822, you got it totally mixed, sorry
Not explicitly but I guess an 11 years old child will guess it right when fed with all the info about the all the parties involved from the Quran
Only if they were fed the preconceptions that all Muslims were fed, ie, virgin birth, Isa flying up to heaven, etc. Without preconceptions, the evidence speaks for itself.
Bad luck, I was not fed at all neither I was brought up a Muslim, in fact I was living between the Christians and wanted to marry one of them, I know Jesus has no father because this is what we can understand from the clear Arabic verses, is it important issue to me?, no it is not, but it will become important when I see mixed up Muslims promoting non sense
please tell me why Mariam after she was informed with the good news and surely she expressed her wonder, was very upset when she delivered the baby?. She was scared to death and even hoped to be dead and forgotten?
While you are there looking for an answer mate, please answer this to
Why the Jews accused Mariam with prostitution when she had the baby?
How about this where Jesus father all that time?
I know who is Isa father, you see you guys are mixed up, the angles came to mariam TWICE, once in a group to inform her with the good news then later on the time line ANOTHER ANGEL CAME ?ONE ONLY? to make her pregnant, that Angel looked to her like a man, and was there to GIVE HER PREGNANCY, NOT TO INFORM HER as INFORMING HER WAS A NOTHER EVENT THAT HAPPENED TO THIS ONE
17- ?She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent her our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects.?
18- "She said Surely I fly for refuge from you to the Beneficent Allah, if you are one guarding (against evil)."
19- "He said I am only a messenger of your Lord That I will give you a pure boy."
20- "She said When shall I have a boy and no mortal has yet touched me, nor have I been unchaste?"
21- "He said Even so; your Lord says It is easy to Me and that We may make him a sign to men and a mercy from Us, and it is a matter which has been decreed."
22- "So she conceived him; then withdrew herself with him to a remote place."
23- "And the throes (of childbirth) compelled her to betake herself to the trunk of a palm tree. She said Oh, would that I had died before this, and had been a thing quite forgotten!"
24- "Then (the child) called out to her from beneath her Grieve not, surely your Lord has made a stream to flow beneath you;"
25- "And shake towards you the trunk of the palm tree, it will drop on you fresh ripe dates"
26- "So eat and drink and refresh the eye. Then if you see any mortal, say Surely I have vowed a fast to the Beneficent Allah, so I shall not speak to any man today."
27- "And she came to her people with him, carrying him (with her). They said O Marium! surely you have done a strange thing."
28- "O sister of Haroun! your father was not a bad man, nor, was your mother an unchaste woman."
29- "But she pointed to him. They said How should we speak to one who was a child in the cradle?"
30- "He said Surely I am a servant of Allah; He has given me the Book and made me a prophet;"
31- "And He has made me blessed wherever I may be, and He has enjoined on me prayer and poor-rate so long as I live;"
32- "And dutiful to my mother, and He has not made me insolent, unblessed;"
33- "And peace on me on the day I was born, and on the day I die, and on the day I am raised to life."
34- "Such is Isa, son of Marium; (this is) the saying of truth about which they dispute."
35- "It beseems not Allah that He should take to Himself a ! son, glory to be Him; when He has decreed a matter He only says to it 'Be,' and it is."
(17)
(1
(19)
(20)
(21)
(22)
(23)
(24)
(25)
(26)
(27)
(2
(29)
(30)
(31)
(32)
(33)
(34)
(35)
Unless you are suggesting that Mariam was a liar when the Quran told us that she wondered on how she will have a baby while no man touched her?
Why would you even mention that and one sentence later agree with me...
because I?m having a discussion and I don?t read the whole comment before I reply I reply as I read from the beginning
Then the virgin is not the issue, we both agree, what you are saying that she married soon after and had a baby?
So, I'll ignore your first question and answer this one.
sure,
I don't know if it was soon after. Maybe it was a week, maybe a year, maybe 5 years. If you'll notice, there is no mention of time.
yes and I can assure you that it was some time after the first visit by the group of angels, IN THE SECOND VISIST MENTIONED ABOVE< IT WAS ONLY ONE ANGEL AND WAS IN THE SHAPE OF A MAN TO GIVE HER PREGNANCY, READ IT ABOVE PLEASE, IT IS OBVIOUS
Read the Quran mate, it clearly stated that when she delivered the baby the Jews came rushing accusing her of wrong doings then Isa spoke to them while he was a baby to support and clear his mother.
I did, brother, and Isa mentioned the praises of Allah, but never mentioned his miraculous birth. Isn't that strange?
No it isn?t because it was clearly understood from 1917-35 and possibly Allah wants to test someone like you with this, good luck.
Or do you think the Quran Quoted all what Jesus said in his life?, how about Mohammad, do you think the Quran quoted everything Mohammad said or any other prophet for that matter?
Why didn't Isa explain his miraculous birth to all these people who were asking questions?. And then in 5110, Allah is addressing Isa, and reminding him of all the blessings given to him and his mother. Yet Allah does not mention the miraculous birth. Did Allah forget this paramount event?
You need to answer this then, why only Allah mentioned his mother and not both?
Sorry mate, I don't care she fell pregnant on the spot of 10 years later neither I care she delivered in a month of 9 months, all I care about that when she delivered the baby they came rushing accusing her of the wrong doings as how she had that baby, now an average human will understand that they were accusing her as such because when she had the baby she suppose to be married to a man, unless you are suggesting that she slept with Joseph without being married and Joseph at the moment of confrontation with the worst accusations he disappeared and we never heard from him since but left his newly born baby to defend Mariam?
I'm not suggesting that Joseph was the father at all. I'm suggesting that she got married to someone and for whatever reason, that someone wasn't there when Isa was born.
That is right because THAT ONE WAS AN ANGEL IN THE SHAPE OF A HUMAN WHO MADE HER PREGENAT AS 1918-35 CLEARLY STATES
Maybe he died.
No because He went back to the heaven
Maybe they married privately.
No because he was an angel in the shape of human 1917
Allah did not feel the need to inform us of what happened to him, just as we are left without information on many of the prophets' spouses. Obviously, it is not essential for our guidance. So, since the guy is not mentioned, we automatically assume that Isa was born without a father???
No he did not have a father because 1917-35 is there , and if not there then I would have accepted your argument
That's quite a leap.
well we didn?t assume anything 1917-35 is clear for a child
Again, I reiterate, without preconceived ideas, the notion that Isa was born without a father is not supported by the ayat of the Qur'an.
wrong, because 1917-35 is a compelling evidence that he was born without a human father rather an angel who came to her in the shape of a human, 1917
Peace,
TayPeace Tay
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The Mother of all refutes regarding the silly claim that Jesus had a human father
Peace
We have talked too much about this subject and it seems the ego level is way too high for some, they argue that they don?t follow blindly then when you present to them a very logical Quran argument they still insist that it is following blindly while they provide nothing but talks.
I agree it is their right to be argumental as such, but the point is, what they argue about and the allegation they promote will put the Quran in fault, if it does not, then be my guest, but if it does then I will work very hard to refute that claim and by only using the Quran, this should be very satisfactory to the Quran alone sect isn?t it?,
Well despite The clear verses 1917-35 in sura named ?Mariam? that the event mentioned is not the same event when a group of angels informed her of the good news on another time, it is also very clear from 1917-35 that it was ONE angel who came to execute the good news, that angel was shaped in a human body exactly as the verses told us. If the serious of events mentioned are not enough to convince those Muslims then let?s hear the Quran speak again, we will not go very far, rather in the same sura no 19 ?Subahanna Allah?, we will look at the issue from a different logical point, forget Jesus and Adam comparison, let?s compare Jesus with another Prophet, his name is Yahya, I?m sure you all know him, I believe he was Jesus cousin as well, The Quran is informing us about Prophet ?Yahya? in 1912-15
12- ?O Yahya! take hold of the Book with strength, and We granted him wisdom while yet a child?
13- ?And tenderness from Us and purity, and he was one who guarded (against evil),?
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14- ?And dutiful to his parents, and he was not insolent, disobedient.?15- ?And peace on him on the day he was born, and on the day he dies, and on the day he is raised to life?
(12)
(13)
(14)
(15)-> Very clear info about Prophet Yahya, what we need to pay more attention is verse 1914
-> Verse 14- ?And dutiful to his parents, and he was not insolent, disobedient.?, can you see the underlined words?, it looks in Arabic like this ? ?, ie. HE WAS BARRAN ?DUTIFUL? TO HIS PARENTS
-> Now, let?s look at 1931-33 in the same sura and see what it says about Jesus
30- "He said Surely I am a servant of Allah; He has given me the Book and made me a prophet;"
31- "And He has made me blessed wherever I may be, and He has enjoined on me prayer and poor-rate so long as I live;"
32- "And dutiful to my mother, and He has not made me insolent, unblessed;"
33- "And peace on me on the day I was born, and on the day I die, and on the day I am raised to life."
(30)
(31)
(32)
(33)-> Again, very clear info about Jesus, what we need to pay more attention is verse 1932
-> Verse 32, "And dutiful to my mother, and He has not made me insolent, unblessed;", can you see the underlined words?, it looks in Arabic like this ? ?, ie. HE WAS BARRAN ?DUTIFUL? TO HIS MOTHER
-> WOW, can anyone please tell me why on earth Yahya will be DUTIFUL TO HIS PARENTS 1914, WHILE JESUS WAS DUTIFUL TO HIS MOTHER ALONE? 1932?
Sorry, my daughter saw me shaking my head and screaming that question above, so she came rushing and told me
Dad, I know the answer
I told her ok Sara, what is it?
She said Jesus was born without a father as per 1917-35, also if you compare 1914 & 1932 this fact will be confirmed, I told her, that is what I did but do you think they will be convinced?, she said to me, who gives a fluke dad.
I told her you are damn right, my case has to be rested thank you sweetie
Peace be with every one
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Peace,
Ahmed your logic is not exhaustive; and I hate to say it but your daughter is probably a bit smarter than you and you failed to understand what she was saying.
It may be true based on these statements that there is a difference in the parents that each was dutiful to. We'll accept that.
But the statements merely show that if Jesus had no father to be dutiful to - it was not due to biological absence.
He may have been absent during his life - perhaps he died or divorced - we do not know. So your argument does not prove that there was not a biological father; only that there was probably no father during his lifetime.
After all isn't that the story with Muhammad also? Traditionalists believe his father died before he was born - so he likewise could only be described as being dutiful to his mother - does that mean he had no father? No it doesn't.
Regards.
-
The birth of Prophet Isa is not the mandatory part of our faith. We only have to believe that Prophet Isa was Messanger of God.
I agree with KGB here. I don't think virgin birth is so important to argue about.
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Peace,
Ahmed your logic is not exhaustive; and I hate to say it but your daughter is probably a bit smarter than you and you failed to understand what she was saying.
Peace
Ok, firstly I will be proud if my daughter is smarter than me, but I'm open to hear why is that according to the Quran?
It may be true based on these statements that there is a difference in the parents that each was dutiful to. We'll accept that.
It maybe?
well, nice try
The Quran not saying it maybe, The Quran said it is the case because according to 1917 it was an angel in the shape of a man who made Mariam pregnant
But the statements merely show that if Jesus had no father to be dutiful to - it was not due to biological absence.
oh yeh and you are totally turning a blind eye on 1917-35?
how about you walk a brother like me through it and explain every verse to me
He may have been absent during his life - perhaps he died or divorced - we do not know. So your argument does not prove that there was not a biological father; only that there was probably no father during his lifetime.
here we go
may be
or perhaps
then we don't know?
who is we?
please Oben can you exculde me from the we, because I know for certain that he never had a biological father as per 1917-35
After all isn't that the story with Muhammad also? Traditionalists believe his father died before he was born - so he likewise could only be described as being dutiful to his mother - does that mean he had no father? No it doesn't.
I'm sorry the Quran never talked about Mohammad being dutiful to his parents, so what is the point here?
also I don't talk hadith, I only talk the Arabic Quran
but I'm sure that you know how hard the Quran stressed to be dutiful to the parents, would you like to see how hard the message of being dutiful to the parents are expressed?
so you are telling me that despite this is the general message of the Quran, Jesus the prophet was exclusivly marked as he was not dutiful to one of the parent because the that parent may be or perhaps absent of his life? Nice try bro, if you read the Quran again you will see that when Jesus said that he was newly born, i.e. he never knew his father nor his mother yet, but opps he talked when he was just born and said that he is dutiful to HIS MOTHER
so where is his father AT THAT TIME Oben?
well I'd say you should stick with the other third option you stated that YOU don't know, on the other hand there are others on earth who know and I'm one fo them
Regards.
Peace